Deleras traps

[Draccus]

Again, thanks for the great info and discussion. I'm learning a lot with every post.

Here's some more info. This is my only character and I'm not in a guild (I have a level 7 rogue that I used to get to 400 favor but now only play my new one).

Race: Drow
Int: 16 (14 + 2 from a Puzzle Cap or something like that)
Maxed Skills: search, spot, DD, OL, Hide, MS, Jump, UMD, diplomacy, tumble
Enhancement: Rogue Skill: Search I; Rogue Skill Boost I

So I think my Search skill is:
8 ranks
3 Int bonus
3 Goggles
1 Enhancement
1 Skill Boost
2 Drow bonus
-------------
18

I think my character sheet showed 19 at the time without boost so I'm missing 3 points somewhere. I'm sure it came from some buff spells.

I'm not really a min/max type. I'm not in a guild and don't have a higher level character to twink with. I'm made some good sales on the AH and have about 650,000 gold so I can certainly afford Fox Cunning and Heroism potions to gain those extra points I need to find some of those harder traps.

And if the quest was indeed level 9, I don't feel bad about not being able to find them. When the group asked me to join, I told them I had pretty good Search and DD skills but that I've never run that quest and may not get all the traps. They had no problem with it nor did they complain when they all got blasted by the traps I missed.

[EKKM]

I don't know your build plan but if you want to be a superior trapsmith consider taking the Way of the Mechanic enhancment at level 6. It gives a +2 to all the main skills. There are a lot of prereqs though. If you go to a trainer click the 'show unavailable' for enhancements. Most of the requirements are worthwhile for a trapsmith anyway. You can reset your enhancements for a small fee.

Most of the advise above is good. My forst character was a rogue so I understand where you are coming from.

Also, try to obtain different skill boosting equipment and swap it in as you use each skill. My rogue has almost all his skill gear in goggle form so I will generally have my spot goggles on, switch to search goggles to find the trap and switch to disable goggles to disable it.

Also, won't help with spot/search but go to the auction house and find the best theives tools you can use to help with disable/locks.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

This is not true for DDO. You can not search for a trap if your search doesn't meet or exceed the trap's search DC.



Do remember that Find Traps is a bonus to search. It does nothing for helping you spot them (and spotting a trap gives you a popup warning message).

Find Traps! I always forget that one.
Scrolls are easy to UMD.... +1 to search, stacks with everything else.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

If he had all the required Twinks availabale for a level 5 character he most likely could of gotten those traps with his Curren INT/WIS scores.

My Pal12/Rog2 put no points into trap skills after lvl 2. With enhancements, Human versitility and good buff items, I was handling normal traps of my lvl.........up to about lvl 12 quests. Since Mod 7 I redid my enhancement though, and lost my trap skills.

But that tells me that with the right buffs, even a gimped rogue can go a long way!

[Leyoni]

let me let you in on a Secret.....

No one cares about your trapsmithing end game.

Maybe true but doesn't change anything. The question is about how to find traps. We all know that the game is gimped with regards to rogues as trap monkeys. Not entirely a bad thing, just part of the game.

A finesse build with good piercing weapons is going to do well. That doesn't mean that you need to ignore the trapsmithing part. If a person wants a top DPS build he's not going to go with a rogue. If he wants a top ranged build he's not going to go with a rogue. If he wants a top HP build he's not going to go with a rogue. Rogues are useful as a complimentary part of a group. If the quest doesn't support that piece it isn't the rogue's fault -- it is a development issue.

With some thought a rogue can fit each role. I'd rather have a rogue that is going to get the traps then need to find a work-around. Just makes it easier all the way around. On top end quests groups ignore or go thru/around traps not because it is the best way but because that is what they have learned to do.

But, I'd rather have a rogue that can not only find traps but also disable them and that can contribute in the kill count.

[Impaqt]

Maybe true but doesn't change anything. The question is about how to find traps. We all know that the game is gimped with regards to rogues as trap monkeys. Not entirely a bad thing, just part of the game.

A finesse build with good piercing weapons is going to do well. That doesn't mean that you need to ignore the trapsmithing part. If a person wants a top DPS build he's not going to go with a rogue. If he wants a top ranged build he's not going to go with a rogue. If he wants a top HP build he's not going to go with a rogue. Rogues are useful as a complimentary part of a group. If the quest doesn't support that piece it isn't the rogue's fault -- it is a development issue.

With some thought a rogue can fit each role. I'd rather have a rogue that is going to get the traps then need to find a work-around. Just makes it easier all the way around. On top end quests groups ignore or go thru/around traps not because it is the best way but because that is what they have learned to do.

But, I'd rather have a rogue that can not only find traps but also disable them and that can contribute in the kill count.

I never said Ignore the trapsmithing part.... I said its not to gimp your rogue by over compensating.

You can do all the important traps and Have Incredible DPS, Be able to USe a Bow efficiently, stand with 400ish Hit Points. Espeicially now that we have this Radiance Effect onweapons and guards.... and if your in a group that understand the Massive DPS a Rogue can provide it gets even better... I LOVE to see my Group mates making use of Stunning blows, Glitterdust, and Intimidate......... Even when I'm using my W/E Weapons I tend to lead inKills.

[MrCow]

I LOVE to see my Group mates making use of Stunning blows, Glitterdust, and Intimidate

People still use Glitterdust? I haven't thought about that spell since I got sunburst.

[Impaqt]

People still use Glitterdust? I haven't thought about that spell since I got sunburst.

Unfortunatly, I'll be using my Sunburst Clicky on my Shroud item for that.... No one I run with seems to carry it all that often.

[Leyoni]

I never said Ignore the trapsmithing part.... I said its not to gimp your rogue by over compensating.

You can do all the important traps and Have Incredible DPS, Be able to USe a Bow efficiently, stand with 400ish Hit Points. Espeicially now that we have this Radiance Effect onweapons and guards.... and if your in a group that understand the Massive DPS a Rogue can provide it gets even better... I LOVE to see my Group mates making use of Stunning blows, Glitterdust, and Intimidate......... Even when I'm using my W/E Weapons I tend to lead inKills.

I've mentioned before the problem with advice coming from the forums. Here is a good example. To hit 400ish HP and have radiance effect on weapons and guards means you have done just about everything there is to do in the game and have nothing left but to raid until the next mod comes out.

That does not represent real life for a lot of players. Those players have to work with what they have. They don't have tons of plat lying around or cast off gear to help them along. For them it is not overcompensating to push the core skills by an extra +1 or +2. And, it isn't gimping the character to do that.

Consider what you get from the start at build time on a drow rogue. You save 2 build points if you go with a starting INT of 14 rather than 16. You save 4 build points if you go with a starting WIS of 10, 6 if you stick with WIS 8, instead of going with 14. That buys you 6-8 build points. Where do you put those to better use? Do you go with STR, CON?

You don't want to go with STR. You're still going to go for finesse so you'll get an extra +1 to +2 in damage at most. As your major damage comes from weapon effects stacked with backstabbing the extra couple of points are not going to matter all that much.

You don't want to go with CON. Your CON is already low and to just get to 10 means spending 4 build points. The extra 6-8 points gets you to a CON of 14 at the most. That is +2 HP per level which is 32 HP at L16. That can be significant but probably isn't. If you are hitting 400ish HP then 32 one way or the other probably doesn't matter much. Then again, a base drow with a 14 CON only has 148 HP to start with. That means lots of effort put into raising HP thru some other means and, frankly, 400ish seems a long way out of reach. Of course, you can go with dwarf or warforged for higher starting CON and CON bonuses. But, OP mentions being drow.

What do you get by having higher INT and WIS?

Well, unless you have been here since founding (or have nothing better to do than play DDO all of the time) you aren't going to know every quest and every trap location. So, you get spot and search bonuses and you'll be glad for it (and so will your party on the majority of content as that is the reason they have you in the group).

Next, with a higher WIS you get an improved will save (you won't have CHA as a feat eating replacement stat). Even with drow feats affecting spell resistance and enchantments, you don't want to take a 3 point swing (difference between 8 WIS and 14 WIS) on will saves. Especially true while you are waiting on all the protective gear and spells that only come at higher levels. For a class that depends on enhancements you might not want to spend your action points to make up for skimping on WIS at build -- particularly when you are not going to get a lot in return out of other stats.

Third, you get more skill points to spend at level up. Skill points ignore gear and only work off base INT (affected by enhancements and tomes). Rogues can easily have 12 or 13 skills that they want to keep up with. A 14 INT nets you 10 points per level. A 16 nets you 11. Since you won't hit 16 or 18 until you get to 1750 favor (unless you already have +2 tomes stockpiled or have lots of plat) this means you are hurting yourself in the skills department. You have to figure out which skills are the critical ones to keep maxed out and then either divide points among others or let some go. Balance, disable device, hide, jump, move silently, open lock, search, spot, swim, tumble, use magic device -- there are 11 skills already. Some folks like to have bluff and even diplomacy, listen or haggle. Of all of these swim, hide, move silently, bluff, diplomacy, listen and haggle are all skills that can be dropped or left at lower numbers. That might not be the best decision and many people might say that you need to keep hide and move silently at good (or maxed) levels. So, you need to have 10 skills going regardless and that means a minimum 14 INT.

That puts us right where I've suggested -- base starting points of 14 to 16 in both WIS and INT. If you go with 14 INT rather than 16 you gain +1 on STR or CON. IMO that is a build choice and doesn't gimp the character one way or the other. Minimal increase in damage output or minimal increase in HP over +1 skill point per level. A build choice and nothing else.

But, unless you have already run characters to max level, know all the quests, have access to plenty of plat, and have a surplus of cast-off gear just waiting for your rogue build -- well, unless all those are the case then you do gimp your rogue by taking a -3 shift to his spot skill. Without the better spot you won't earn the reputation for being a "good" rogue. Without the reputation you won't get people seeking you out for their group. Without the groups you won't ever get to the end game content.

I think that is what "gimped" is all about -- not being able to get to the end game because of a less than best decision at creation which causes you to underperform in the early and mid game and so costs you the reputation you need (unless you have a really strong guild or a static group that you are in).

[Uska]

You can get by, but to be really successful you need to do more than that.

You cannot search if the trap hasn't been either spotted or set off. Since the rogue generally has the best spot that means he has to spot them. Clerics with find traps and, occassionally, other characters can spot the trap instead, but searching without spotting isn't supposed to work -- if you don't know to search then why would you? But, I'll test it out later today just to confirm.

Rogues are not feat starved. They are like several other classes and have to decide what their role is. A "get by" build is going to be mediocre at best. Possibly an explanation for why the OP couldn't spot traps to begin with, even when they were known.

The most important stats for rogues are DEX, INT, and WIS. Depending on what the plan for the character is INT and WIS should run between 14 and 16. Now, all of that changes if the rogue is not primarily a trap monkey. Obviously, going a different direction with a rogue isn't bad. But, the OP posted about not being able to get traps.

From his description he probably was running Thrall of the Necromancer which is a L10 quest on elite IIRC. That's 5 levels above the OP's rogue. If he wants to run quests at that level and succeed he has to have a build that does more than "get by". That means high INT and WIS to go with his DEX, it means spending all his enhancements and feats on search and spot skills, it means getting the best available gear, it means getting the best boost out of potions, spells, rogue boost (anything that stacks).

Even with all of that, he probably was going to have a hard time getting to the spot number. That is a by-product of quests being so well known that people run them with their twinked characters at (character) levels well below what the quest was designed for.

For that the OP should feel no guilt or sorrow. He was asked to do what was much beyond his level. But, he could have built differently and, with the right set of buffs/enhancements/feats/boosts/gear come close or maybe even succeeded.

In ddo you dont have to spot or set off the trap to be able to search for it you just need a high enough skill period if theres a trap you will find it.

[Uska]

So what do you want here? Super Twink or Work for your stuff? If you want to be a good rogue but cant afford the AH, then guess what.. Ya Gotta Quest.... STK is run all the time.. Every day... and they ALWAYS want a rogue. Forgive me if I think its reasonable that you RUN that quest a few times to get what you need to make your build efective. That is what this game is about.. Questing........

Clerics can swap spells at whim. There absolutely no reason a Cleric cant carry Prayer as a spell. Its one of the best buffs to use at level 5-7.
Reality is what you make it in this game. If ya wana run quests 4 levels above you, and ya dont ave unlimited resorces, ya gotta accept failure or find a way to succeed. Since he made this thread, I provided a way to Succeed WITHOUT wasting feats.

let me let you in on a Secret.....

No one cares about your trapsmithing end game. Cant get the Cabal trap? Oh well.... Break the floor out in Rainbow? No problem.. THe quest is easier that way anyway. Pure Trapsmith rogues are the least desired partymate when the going gets rough. You NEED to be able to contribute to the party in some other fasion. People RUn through Traps without a care inthe world. THey will bypass Traps that protect chests, and they will take ANY class other than a rogue in 90% of end game content... and f theres already a rogue in the group? Very few will add a second rogue build unless they know you.

Maybe you havent played end game on a rogue build yet.... Maybe you are in a Static group or Tight nit guild and never have to PuG.....

AN Average Trapsmith can easily disable the Traps in Vision of Destruction. Even on Elite. Thats the Highest level Quest in the game. Building a character to get the Cabal and Rainbow traps is a serious mistake for many rogues.

Have to side slightly with leyoni on this I play lots of clerics and never carry prayer just not worth the sp for its length to me and bards being group are very hit or miss but have to agree with you its a huge mistake to build just a trap monkey you will find yourself getting bored with that character and groups maybe not wanting to group with you as much in end game as you will be needed for other stuff besides traps

[Leyoni]

Have to side slightly with leyoni on this I play lots of clerics and never carry prayer just not worth the sp for its length to me and bards being group are very hit or miss but have to agree with you its a huge mistake to build just a trap monkey you will find yourself getting bored with that character and groups maybe not wanting to group with you as much in end game as you will be needed for other stuff besides traps

True for end game. But, if you can't do traps in early and mid game then nobody wants to group with you either. Face it, when playing a rogue people expect you to spot and find traps. If you can't then you're broken. If you can't disable the traps then you are even more broken.

Hit for 2 or 3 fewer points of damage during melee, that's not broken. It isn't the rogue's job to be the DPS guy, that's what fighters and barbarians are for. Back up healer, rez man, UMD specialist? A group is better off with a bard, why would it take a rogue for that? Heck, why not take a real cleric, sorcerer, or wizard?

Just what is it that the rogue is supposed to do for "other stuff" that he can't do while being good at traps? Because, honestly, I don't think that -- other than DPS from backstabbing -- there is much else that he is supposed to be doing. UMD is a bonus and any character able to help out with emergency heals or rezes is a plus -- but it isn't what you expect or demand from a rogue. If you are then it is the party that is gimped and not the rogue.

[stabbert]

So what do you want here? Super Twink or Work for your stuff? If you want to be a good rogue but cant afford the AH, then guess what.. Ya Gotta Quest.... STK is run all the time.. Every day... and they ALWAYS want a rogue. Forgive me if I think its reasonable that you RUN that quest a few times to get what you need to make your build efective. That is what this game is about.. Questing........

Clerics can swap spells at whim. There absolutely no reason a Cleric cant carry Prayer as a spell. Its one of the best buffs to use at level 5-7.
Reality is what you make it in this game. If ya wana run quests 4 levels above you, and ya dont ave unlimited resorces, ya gotta accept failure or find a way to succeed. Since he made this thread, I provided a way to Succeed WITHOUT wasting feats.

let me let you in on a Secret.....

No one cares about your trapsmithing end game. Cant get the Cabal trap? Oh well.... Break the floor out in Rainbow? No problem.. THe quest is easier that way anyway. Pure Trapsmith rogues are the least desired partymate when the going gets rough. You NEED to be able to contribute to the party in some other fasion. People RUn through Traps without a care inthe world. THey will bypass Traps that protect chests, and they will take ANY class other than a rogue in 90% of end game content... and f theres already a rogue in the group? Very few will add a second rogue build unless they know you.

Maybe you havent played end game on a rogue build yet.... Maybe you are in a Static group or Tight nit guild and never have to PuG.....

AN Average Trapsmith can easily disable the Traps in Vision of Destruction. Even on Elite. Thats the Highest level Quest in the game. Building a character to get the Cabal and Rainbow traps is a serious mistake for many rogues.

Every single word in this quote is absolutely true!
You cant squeeze blood out of a turnip..
Either you quest for your gear or you BUY it or have really nice friends that give you gear.
AFAIK there is no other way to get gear in this game..
If there is id sure like to know!

Now I havent played this game very long, only 2 months, and I hope that admission doesnt
discredit what I say in this thread, (I have a capped bard and a level 10 ranger rogue guy) but
I am now working on my second rogue build, and surprise surprise its based off of Impaqts Elven cleric/rogue build.
So far its going great at level 2 almost 3, ive run a couple elite harbor quests and with a modest amount
of base rogue skills with +3 items ive spotted/searched/disabled all traps so far.

Impaqt seems to know what hes talking about and from what I understand hes been around for a while...
as well has rolled alot of builds.
I try not to argue with my elders they usually know more than me anyway :P
And no I am not an Impaqt fanboi! (you can quote that if you want..)
Just what he is saying mirrors my personal observations ive seen with my own rogue('s)

Good luck on your rogue build, and dont worry about being a bad rogue, sometimes the best way to learn
is to fail anyway

-Stabbert

[Impaqt]

Have to side slightly with leyoni on this I play lots of clerics and never carry prayer just not worth the sp for its length to me and bards being group are very hit or miss but have to agree with you its a huge mistake to build just a trap monkey you will find yourself getting bored with that character and groups maybe not wanting to group with you as much in end game as you will be needed for other stuff besides traps

So if a New Rogue was running Delaras with you you would refuse to load up Prayer for him?

You need to start experimenting with Prayer a bit if uyou think its a waste.... +1 To hit,Damage, Skills, and Saves while silmultaneously Debuffing any mobs in the AOE -1 is pretty sweet.

[Strykersz]

True for end game. But, if you can't do traps in early and mid game then nobody wants to group with you either. Face it, when playing a rogue people expect you to spot and find traps. If you can't then you're broken. If you can't disable the traps then you are even more broken.

Hit for 2 or 3 fewer points of damage during melee, that's not broken. It isn't the rogue's job to be the DPS guy, that's what fighters and barbarians are for. Back up healer, rez man, UMD specialist? A group is better off with a bard, why would it take a rogue for that? Heck, why not take a real cleric, sorcerer, or wizard?

Just what is it that the rogue is supposed to do for "other stuff" that he can't do while being good at traps? Because, honestly, I don't think that -- other than DPS from backstabbing -- there is much else that he is supposed to be doing. UMD is a bonus and any character able to help out with emergency heals or rezes is a plus -- but it isn't what you expect or demand from a rogue. If you are then it is the party that is gimped and not the rogue.

This is the mindset that makes groups take 1 rogue max. Rogues should be incredibly attractive to groups. They deal +28/hit before enhancements/gear at level 16(the equivalent of a strength of 66). With enhancements(remember that these cost 0gp), it goes up to 40(the equivalent of 90 str). Your job in a group is dps and unlike most other classes, rogues don't need crazy raid loot to deliver it.

[LawstCawz]

So if a New Rogue was running Delaras with you you would refuse to load up Prayer for him?

You need to start experimenting with Prayer a bit if uyou think its a waste.... +1 To hit,Damage, Skills, and Saves while silmultaneously Debuffing any mobs in the AOE -1 is pretty sweet.

QFT. My cleric carries prayer and often tosses it out in battle.

[gillilandjoshua]

sorry to say i heard this post and went to a server and made a new 28 pt build and i got those traps on hardv at 4th level on the hard diff and i think i could prolly do elite but i lvld to 5 so the world may never know. not enough int or dex i woukl say cuase i only useed loot from the ww and some pots, no scrolls or exceptional equip

[Premier]

This is the mindset that makes groups take 1 rogue max. Rogues should be incredibly attractive to groups. They deal +28/hit before enhancements/gear at level 16(the equivalent of a strength of 66). With enhancements(remember that these cost 0gp), it goes up to 40(the equivalent of 90 str). Your job in a group is dps and unlike most other classes, rogues don't need crazy raid loot to deliver it.

I like reading dmg rating as a strength equivalent like you posted above Strykersz. I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees it this way.

For the OP, read Impaqt's guides and you'll learn a lot on building an effective Rogue. Also read the Static Rewards guide to find equipment that fits your Rogue's play style. I prefer not dumping WIS, 10 or 12 is cool; I roll with a higher INT (16+) because I enjoy playing highly skilled characters. Also, if you're reading and posting on the forums then you're on your way to building effective classes. Keep up the good work!

Peace!

-Premier

[wamjratl1]

No one cares about your trapsmithing end game. Cant get the Cabal trap? Oh well.... Break the floor out in Rainbow? No problem.. THe quest is easier that way anyway. Pure Trapsmith rogues are the least desired partymate when the going gets rough. You NEED to be able to contribute to the party in some other fasion. People RUn through Traps without a care inthe world. THey will bypass Traps that protect chests, and they will take ANY class other than a rogue in 90% of end game content... and f theres already a rogue in the group? Very few will add a second rogue build unless they know you.

Maybe you havent played end game on a rogue build yet.... Maybe you are in a Static group or Tight nit guild and never have to PuG.....

AN Average Trapsmith can easily disable the Traps in Vision of Destruction. Even on Elite. Thats the Highest level Quest in the game. Building a character to get the Cabal and Rainbow traps is a serious mistake for many rogues.

So True. i've only recently gotten into Vale quests and discovered that my trapsmith skills were not only sufficient, but even a little overpowered. That Skill Mastery thing I took was unnecessary - gear and enhancements were enough. So I swapped it for Crippling Strike. As I level, I may well respec out of WoM and take WoA - we'll see ( i do want to always be able to get traps done, if necessary).

But yeah, I always ask a party at the beginning if they want me to bother with traps. Some groups don't. That's cool. I'm great at killing stuff too, I can backup heal, rez, range for debuffs/stat damage. That's where a real rogue's str lies.

OP, there are a lot of great rogue builds on these forums. Look at some of them while deciding where you want to take your rogue. Lots of options for a versatile class.

[Hvymetal]

Heres my take on the INT debate, you really do not need that high of an INT providing you have access to pretty much top of the line items and/or fox's potions all the time.

Personally I don;t generally go higher than a 14 INT (nor really lower either). The higher INT definatly will help at lower levels where it is easy to get in over your head). At higher level (where you will most likely spend a majority of your time) it is very easy to overkill your INT in regards to traps. To be honest I cannot rememeber the last time I had to equip an INT item on my 16 INT Warforged Rogue (I was worried with no racial bonus to search/spot I might need a little extra INT), my new one is starting at a 14 because the 16 was overkill at high level even with no other bonuses other than WOTM I and I think I went to II on search enhancement line.

P.S. And while yes, most groups are going to expect you to do traps you do not have to pump all your rescources into it to be a reliable trapsmith. Trapsmithing comes naturally to Rogues (just like DPS), you shouldn't have to put extra feats into it (only SF I ever take is UMD cause well I play mainly forged and CHA isn't a priority), and won;t have to really max the enhancement lines. But you will need gear, I hate to say it outside a AC/Intimitank, Rogues are one of the gear-focused classes. You will find yourself constantly swapping out gear, if possible see about getting your trap gear in as few slots as possible, ie. Ring or Goggle most likely.