a debate for those who built ranged barbs

[avatar28]

Ok, I have a human 3/2 barb/ranger currently.. Going for HV:IV, all the barb rage enhancements, PS,IPS, manyshot of course, and there is room for whatever in the end.

The debate is whether or not I should swap diehard for ITWF at level 6, so I could switch to 2 weapons during MS cooldown.
I believe by the time I get to making a tier 3 pos bow, there is no way i'm switching off it - unless I have a w/p bow ;-). But until my base attack bonus allows me to fire 4 arrows at once, let's face it my manyshot will be nice - but it won't seal the deal. I'm looking for a middle ground in which I can have max dps for my build pre level 10. Once I have nice power 5 bows, I believe things will look better for the 24/7 bowman.
So I would appreciate those that actualy have this build discuss the best option for me right now to maximize this sick build.

Just for ease of posters,I will give a brief description of my build projected to level 16.

Torbjorn: 14/2 barb/ranger Human.

Base stats:
STR 17
DEX 17
CON 14
INT 8
WIS 8
CHA 8

Feats:
L1 point blank shot; Diehard (barb) +1 STR tome used, +1 Dex tome used
L2 (ranger)
L3 Precise shot (ranger)
L4 (barb) +1 STR
L5 (barb)
L6 Many Shot (Swap Diehard for Improved Two-Weapon Fighting) (barb)
L7 (barb)
L8 (Barb) +1 DEX
L9 Improved Critical: Ranged (barb)
L10 (barb)
L11 (barb)
L12 Improved Precise Shot, +1 STR (barb)
L13 (barb)
L14 (barb)
L15 ( GTWF?/Iron Will?) (barb)
L16 (barb) +1 STR

side note: I chose true neutral alignment for a slightly better ac, and a measly bonus to saves. However I would like suggestions on how to play this alignment effectively - other than the obvious can't use PG weapons and should opt for stability armour)

thx in advance

[Lithic]

I know Diehard was a great movie, but it makes a sub-par feat. All it does is auto-stabilize you between 0 and -9hp. If you are in a party, being brought up from incap is easy, so this really only helps often if you are solo (And it helps MUCH more at low levels than it does past lvl 10).

In any case, the game keeps track of which feat was taken when. This means the game knows you took diehard at lvl 1 when you had a +1 base attack bonus (+1BAB). This means it will not let you trade it for any feat with a requirement of more than +1BAB. Since ITWF has a BAB requirement of +6, the exchange you are proposing is impossible.

What you may want to do is swap Diehard for powerattack. Powerattack is always nice for a barbarian,though more so if you are using 2handed weapons. Powerattack also has no prereqs, so can be taken at lvl 1.

Another thing you are forgetting, is that many shot is ONLY available to lvl 6 rangers. No other class can select it unless they take 6 ranger levels (in which case it is free). The value of precise and improved precise shot is also questionable, but that is your choice of course

[MrCow]

Another thing you are forgetting, is that many shot is ONLY available to lvl 6 rangers. No other class can select it unless they take 6 ranger levels (in which case it is free).

Manyshot has the prerequisites of: BAB 6, DEX 17, Point Blank Shot, and Rapid Shot. No where in there does it specify that you must be a Ranger to take the feat.

[Lithic]

Manyshot has the prerequisites of: BAB 6, DEX 17, Point Blank Shot, and Rapid Shot. No where in there does it specify that you must be a Ranger to take the feat.

Well if thats true, then I guess you learn somethig every day. Assuming of course that non-rangers can take it, and the description isn't just a mistake of course

[Hanam]

It's actually funny. Manyshot's amount of arrows is based off BAB. So, a barb 14/2 ranger has a potentially stronger manyshot than a pure ranger. Crit rage II vs rams might and favored enemy.

[Impaqt]

It's actually funny. Manyshot's amount of arrows is based off BAB. So, a barb 14/2 ranger has a potentially stronger manyshot than a pure ranger. Crit rage II vs rams might and favored enemy.

Huh?

They are both 1:1 BAB Classes. There is no difference.

(ANd yes, Manyshot can be taken as a Standard feat as long as you hit the prereqs)

[avatar28]

Another thing you are forgetting, is that many shot is ONLY available to lvl 6 rangers. No other class can select it unless they take 6 ranger levels (in which case it is free). The value of precise and improved precise shot is also questionable, but that is your choice of course

This is absolutely false.. ask any of the number of posters from other ranged builds who have 14/2 barb/ranger capped toons, or ask me who has a barb/ranger/fighter toon.. all you need is rapid shot,point blank shot, and whatever the BAB is +5 or +6.

The value of IPS is not even arguable. IPS is a more valued feat then stunning blow,improved trip,sap,or cleave in the hands of an experienced bower. If used correctly, you can kite around mobs to line up and target the back one - coupled with many shot means the 3 monsters you are hitting simutaneously with capped Many Shot are getting all hit at the same time.. spewing 12 red numbers on your screen.. oh and double raged, crit II....means you've just cleared the room in about 3 seconds.

[Hanam]

Huh?

They are both 1:1 BAB Classes. There is no difference.

(ANd yes, Manyshot can be taken as a Standard feat as long as you hit the prereqs)

Yes, reread my post and it may make sense to you . Maybe my wording was a bit too vague.

[Grimdiegn]

Just wondering, why the 2nd level of ranger and not take barb to 15? When the level cap goes up you may miss something in the barb line of enhancements.

[Impaqt]

Just wondering, why the 2nd level of ranger and not take barb to 15? When the level cap goes up you may miss something in the barb line of enhancements.

Because the TWF free Feat will work as a Prereq for his TWF feats.. However, I just noticed an error in his build plan....

You cannot swap out a L1 Feat for Improved TWF. at L1 you wil not meet the prereqs to take the feat. I dont see a way to correctly map the feats he wants in this build.

[Hanam]

Just wondering, why the 2nd level of ranger and not take barb to 15? When the level cap goes up you may miss something in the barb line of enhancements.

I do not know of any level 19 feats for barbs. You also get the free TWF feat and ranger dex I. The future enhancments are cloudy. No reason NOT to get the 2nd level of ranger.

[MrCow]

Just wondering, why the 2nd level of ranger

It nets him Rapid Shot for free, which is required for Manyshot.

[Grimdiegn]

Aight, I see now why the barb ranged would like the other level of ranger. I have a WF Ranged fighter10/Ranger1/wiz1 and will level the fighter to 14 at least. I took rapid shot as the extra fighter feat instead of the level of ranger. As for melee I don't seem to need to go into hand to hand much so far and when I do, sword and board works fine so no need for twf.

[redoubt]

Well if thats true, then I guess you learn somethig every day. Assuming of course that non-rangers can take it, and the description isn't just a mistake of course

My elf bowbarian took many shot at level 6 when he was 2 ranger/4 barb

[Kraak]

Replied to your PM. Also, Allendale's right about the feat progression. You're not going to be able to get to GTWF yet because the Human feat is a first level feat. Great idea though. I was thinking about it for level 18 but I'm primarily ranged. The only time I melee is vorp orthon's and devil's in the Shroud. BTW, people can say what they want but my str gimped ranger's max crit is only a couple of point short of my max crit on my Bongolion. Kraakakhan's still a fun build and have a great time running her. Other than the feat progression, it looks like everything else is solid. GL

[Kraak]

Just saw your thread on tier 3 bows. If you go Tier 3, mineral 2 - you can dump improved crit ranged for improved crit slashing (or whatever) to help with your melee/ranged mix. Just a thought. Cheers.

[avatar28]

what would mineral II get me?

and i'd hate to part with IC: Ranged as it would make me crit on only a 19-20 which 10% of the time is not good enough for me

[dior10276]

I didn't read any of the other posts, so, y not try to build this as 10/6 and take tempest ability. With this build you will get manyshot and itwf as granted ranger 6 feats, in addition if you take dodge mobility and spring attack you havae tempest build with 10% increased attack speed and plus 2 to your armor class while duel-wielding. At end game, you can get to 14 barb which will provide you with both improved crits. I only suggest this because I have a 3/2 build right now and that is my plan. My starting stats are almost identical and he is also human.

He will be good with bow and damage along with gr8 duel wielding capabilities for melee.

[Vua]

what would mineral II get me?

and i'd hate to part with IC: Ranged as it would make me crit on only a 19-20 which 10% of the time is not good enough for me

Actually you'd be critting on an 18-20 with Crit Rage II and no improved critical feat. Improved crit only brings you to a 17 when raged. In this case I believe a Mineral II bow would be keen so you'd still be critting on 17-20 with that bow without the improved crit feat.

[bobbryan2]

Just wondering, why the 2nd level of ranger and not take barb to 15? When the level cap goes up you may miss something in the barb line of enhancements.

Well... I for one will be going 14/6 at the level cap. Eventually getting to remove my many shot, and point blank shot feats and moving them to something more useful. Gaining TWF and ITWF for free... and switching one out to GTWF to be perfectly interchangeable... Not to mention the ability to take Diehard and a Ranger specialty.

What do you gain in barbarian 15-19 that can equate?