thoughts on a Stealth Cleric.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Not a specific build, just some thoughts and ideas to throw out there.

I recently rolled up an Elf Cleric to use the Dragon marks, and also to have 2 lvls of Mnk for evasion.

It's a combination of three ideas I've had about Clerics.

The first idea was how to make an Evasion Cleric with a high Ref save?

I got this idea when my healing cleric ran DQ2 for the first time. It was extremely difficult to keep myself alive in her spinning blades! But I had done the quest on a multi-classed Rgr and a high Dex Wiz and it wasn't nearly as bad as it was for my Cleric.

So I started with a halfling with 2lvls of Rog and a very high Dex, and only a 14 Wiz. The plan was to put all lvl up points in Wiz, but to not try to be an offensive Cleric......just cast buffs and healing spells. For that you don't need a high Wiz.
I got this char to lvl6 and got bored with him. He did what he was supposed to do, but I just don't like being a healer.

But I do think the basic build is sound and would be ideal for current end-game content. A Cleric that can stay alive to heal and buff his friends.

My second idea was about a true Stealth Cleric who had sneak skills. This is very difficult without a lot of skill points, and my ealier Clr4/Rog2 was not able to pull it off effectively. But it could be done with one lvl of Rog or Mnk (maybe Brd and Rgr) at lvl 1, and then a second lvl of Rog or Mnk later on around lvl 8 or so, when you could put all your lvl up skill ponts into stealth skills. This kind of build would be easier with a 12 or 14 Int if you can fit in in. But if combined with an evasion build, that same high Dex would go a long way to beef up your sneaking ability.

My third idea has to do with Invisibility and Clerics.
Healing and buffing does not remove Invisibility!
Also, it seems that it does not remove the Shadow walk spell either!
So if you made an Elf Cleric (already a good idea for the raise dead enhancement) and took the Dragon marks of Shadow line of feats, you could have a healer/buffer who stays Invisible all the time.......maybe stays Displaced or Shadow Walking a lot of the time as well!

Combine the Evasion Cleric with an Elf Dragon mark of Shadow, and you have a healer/buffer who is much mosre survivable than the average Cleric.

With all these in mind I now have an Elf, Dragon marked Mnk1/Clr1 with maxed Stealth skills. I can't rember the exact stats I went with, but her Dex is near max and her Wiz started at 14. All lvl up points will go into Wiz.
I think I made her with a 14 Int as well, to keep up the sneak skills.

But even without the sneak skills, and Elf Cleric with just a least Dragon mark and a high dex, combined with evasion would be a very survivable cleric IMO.

Sorry for not posting a specific build, but just wanted to share those ideas with the masses.

[MrCow]

Depending on the difficulty of the dungeon remember to keep a +hide item on. When not sneaking you use your hide skill to evade being noticed by critters that don't see through invisibility.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Depending on the difficulty of the dungeon remember to keep a +hide item on. When not sneaking you use your hide skill to evade being noticed by critters that don't see through invisibility.

Good point.
If I understand correctly, you're saying that you still need high sneak skills to remain un-noticed while Invisible.
Whick would make the Stealthy option on my build even more prefered.

That also explains why my cleric can't run somewhere in the Vale while Invisible but my Rgr and high dex/stealth Wiz can.
It's more than just Listen I think..........it seems they have no problem atacking my cleric, but they almost never hit my more stealthier chars.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

My first attempt at using a char creator.
Lots of minor mistakes I'm sure, but here's an example of a possible build.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 2.96
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Hips 
Level 16 Lawful Good Elf Female
(2 Monk \ 14 Cleric) 
Hit Points: 148
Spell Points: 898 
BAB: 11\11\16\21
Fortitude: 13
Reflex: 15
Will: 19

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 16)
Strength             10                    11
Dexterity            18                    21
Constitution         10                    11
Intelligence         14                    15
Wisdom               14                    22
Charisma             12                    13

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Strength used at level 12
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 12
+1 Tome of Constitution used at level 12
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 12
+1 Tome of Wisdom used at level 12
+1 Tome of Charisma used at level 12

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 16)
Balance               6                     7
Bluff                 1                     1
Concentration         4                    17
Diplomacy             1                     1
Disable Device        n/a                   n/a
Haggle                1                     1
Heal                  2                     6
Hide                  8                    24
Intimidate            1                     1
Jump                  2                     3
Listen                2                     8
Move Silently         8                    20
Open Lock             n/a                   n/a
Perform               n/a                   n/a
Repair                2                     2
Search                2                     4
Spot                  6                    21
Swim                  0                     0
Tumble                6                     7
Use Magic Device      2                     2

Level 1 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Deflect Arrows
Feat: (Selected) Least Dragonmark of Shadow
Enhancement: Phiarlan Stealth I
Enhancement: Elven Keen Eyes I
Enhancement: Disciple of Puddles
Enhancement: Monk Spot I


Level 2 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Follower of the Undying Court
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot I
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Vitality I


Level 3 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom I


Level 4 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Extra Dragonmark I
Enhancement: Cleric Concentration I
Enhancement: Monk Jump I


Level 5 (Cleric)


Level 6 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell
Enhancement: Elven Keen Eyes II
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Empower Healing I
Enhancement: Cleric Concentration II
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot II


Level 7 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Undying Call


Level 8 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity II
Enhancement: Cleric Extra Turning I


Level 9 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Lesser Dragonmark of Shadow
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom II


Level 10 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot III


Level 11 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Lightning Reflexes
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Empower Healing II


Level 12 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Dragonmark of Shadow
Enhancement: Phiarlan Stealth II
Enhancement: Phiarlan Stealth III


Level 13 (Cleric)


Level 14 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Phiarlan Stealth IV
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Vitality II
Enhancement: Cleric Extra Turning II


Level 15 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Luck of Heroes


Level 16 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Extra Dragonmark II
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom III

Edit: this if for a completely naked char....since I can't figure out how to add items easily.
But +5 stat items are common.
And +15 Stealth items are also common (unlike +15 items for most skills)
Also +4 resistance items are common, at leat the Trap Blast goggles are.
That should give a 26 Dex, and a Ref save of +22. And a 27 Wiz.
Plus Hide 41, MS 38.
All unbuffed and with common items that even the casualist of player should be able to acquire.

[MrCow]

Phiarlan Stealth enhancements might be overkill for this if you have full ranks in move silently and hide. This build could also probably do quite well with weapons finesse in the event you want to mix it up in the melee while maintaining a good AC.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Phiarlan Stealth enhancements might be overkill for this if you have full ranks in move silently and hide. This build could also probably do quite well with weapons finesse in the event you want to mix it up in the melee while maintaining a good AC.

I just downloaded the char creator for the first time.
And didn't put a lot of thought into it. Part of it was taken from memory of the 2nd lvl char I built a few days ago. I find it difficult to think too many lvls ahead. and have mixed feelings about where to go with the build.

Wep finess is a great idea. I have a high Dex Wiz that has wep finesse and actually fights decent (preferable with lots of buffs and no agro)
I had considered trying to fit Arcane Archer into the build, but wep finess is just one feat and would gain a lot from it.
Still over all the idea is to stay Invisible as much as possible.....heal and be ignored.

And ignore those pesky flamestrikes and fireballs that beat up most clerics so badly. (plus be able to sneak around on occasion)

I'm still learning a lot on the sneaking side of things. My Wiz can reach a 37 Hide/MS, and it lets me sneak by a lot of things.......but not everything. And not necessarily the same thing twice. I notice things will alll of a sudden walk toward me until they bump into me......even though I'm not moving at the time.

Oh, well.....I'm actually bored with clerics anyway, so I don't expect this build to lvl up anytime soon.
But the only way I was able to get into a VoD group was on my cleric.......and I was so frustrated that I couldn't keep myself alive long enough to really be an asset to the group. Seems an evasion cleric would be awesome in there, and an un-noticed, Invisible, displaced cleric would last a long time IMO.

[Dailus]

A few things...

Are you dead set on cleric levels? Bards and (correctly spec'd) Rangers can make pretty good healers and both classes have the stealth skills as class skills. Are you dead set on using an elf? A properly spec'd bard or ranger with the halfling dragonmarks would make a very nice stealth healer. Just some things to think on.

-Dailus

[Talon_Moonshadow]

A few things...

Are you dead set on cleric levels? Bards and (correctly spec'd) Rangers can make pretty good healers and both classes have the stealth skills as class skills. Are you dead set on using an elf? A properly spec'd bard or ranger with the halfling dragonmarks would make a very nice stealth healer. Just some things to think on.

-Dailus

Actually, I'm not dead set on Clerics at all! lol.
I don't mind being a part time healer, but I hate being the babysitter reponsible for everyone's life.
But I'm pretty good at it....I hate it, but I can do it.

It's easy to get into any group as a cleric. And everyone is always waitin for a cleric.
The idea started as how to make a more survivable cleric, but it is also about how to make a fun one.

Then there are two famous forum posters that like the stealthy approach......and it seemed that a stealthy healer is actually quite difficult to make/find.

Pretty set on the Elf.
My first attempt was a halfling with the dragon marks........not bad, but I got bored with him.

I like Brds.....I like them a lot.....but I've had real difficulty making one I liked in DDO. Haven't gotten one above 4th lvl yet.
I also like Rgrs......but even though my rangers will drop back and heal when needed, that's not really how I want to play a Rgr. Rgrs should be actively hurting something when possible IMO.

The halfling Dragon mark is nice......
But I've got this Invisible healer (and evasion) concept in mind right now.
Although I do want to make an Elf Rgr, and I would love to actually make a bard I liked someday.

[Dailus]

Ok this dicussion got me thinking. I know casting breaks stealth and not invisibility, but invisibility only covers the hide part of stealth. Can mobs hear you casting? I am quite sure in pnp anything with a verbal componet would give you away, but does it in ddo?

-Dailus

[MrCow]

Talon, its not an elf, but have you considered a halfling bard that was healing oriented? Bards get invisibility as a castable spell, lots of skill points, stealth as a class skill, and a build like that should have good healing capabilities as well. If you are worried about the evasion factor you can probably fit two levels of rogue in and have a good base reflex save.

Can mobs hear you casting?

This depends on the spell. A spell that makes a circular outline like sleep, haste, slow, and mass hold person will cause a sound. Spells that are single target only should make no sound. A spell that causes something to take damage may not make a sound, but the monster that took damage will.

So in relevance to this thread's topic, healing and most buffs will not make a sound.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Talon, its not an elf, but have you considered a halfling bard that was healing oriented? Bards get invisibility as a castable spell, lots of skill points, stealth as a class skill, and a build like that should have good healing capabilities as well. If you are worried about the evasion factor you can probably fit two levels of rogue in and have a good base reflex save.



This depends on the spell. A spell that makes a circular outline like sleep, haste, slow, and mass hold person will cause a sound. Spells that are single target only should make no sound. A spell that causes something to take damage may not make a sound, but the monster that took damage will.

So in relevance to this thread's topic, healing and most buffs will not make a sound.

A halfling healing brd.....hmm......



From what I have seen, spells do not appear to make any noise that monsters can hear in DDO.
But some spells will cause instant agro (and Godlike knowledge of your exact location)

But MrCow should know much more than I since he actually does something like scientific experiments on the monster of Stormreach.

I'm too lazy for that and just go off of general observations.
But it seems to me that the monsters have never "heard" me cast a spell. Generally if they hear you but haven't seen you yet, they go into an alert mode and start to look around for you. From what I've noticed casting spells from stealth they either ignore you or instantly agro on you. Never taking the time to do their search thing.

[MrCow]

From what I have seen, spells do not appear to make any noise that monsters can hear in DDO.

Want to play a mean trick on someone in a stealth-oriented party? Cast haste on them and watch the monsters search around the hasted area. I've gotten someone killed doing this before.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Want to play a mean trick on someone in a stealth-oriented party? Cast haste on them and watch the monsters search around the hasted area. I've gotten someone killed doing this before.

You just love proving me wrong.

Alright, we herd it straight from the Cow's mouth........some spells do make noise.