Ok explain to me again why Orthons have such high AC...

[Vallin]

Edit2: Don't brag that your guild can beat it no problem. PuGs need to be able to do the thing too, with experienced members that know their class and play well... but are not twinked out to the absolute maximum this game allows at this point. Else, we would run it once every 6 months for resource's sake, and ignore the 3 day timer.

Interesting point, GlassCannon. I agree that PUGs should be able to do it too. That is why I was a little miffed at the changes to Hound and VoD at the last update. They certainly were not easy raids even though we were getting better at them. Adding the bees and making re-entry impossible pushed the quests out of the reach of a lot of players.

The fact is that there is a huge gap between so-called power gamers and large guilds and those who are not as well equipped and who play more sporadically. It is very difficult for so-called casual players to even attempt some of the high end content.

Certainly this is a tough balancing act for the game developers who want to keep the broad spectrum of their player base happy. I wonder if it wouldn't be better to have more powerful raid loot fall at hard and elite only, and that would be a good incentive for the power gamers - and keep the normal setting more achievable (but not a cake walk) for the more casual players.

I like joining PUGs, and I did a few Hound PUGs this weekend. There were many players in them that were not experienced, and to be honest it was a huge mess and I am sure a huge disincentive to play and not really that much fun. Then I did a guild run and we invited other experienced people and did the Hound with no problem. Some of the people in the unsuccessful run were probably small groups of friends (assuming by names of very small and uncommon guilds) that got together to try to beat the thing - it was just not really fun and I felt bad that we failed so horribly.

Kind of long-winded, but the point is that some of the end-game content is really just not beatable unless you are more of the power-gamer type - in my opinion.

Vallin
(and Zerkar, Derkar, Gerkar, etc. etc.).

[MrCow]

So therefore, MrCow, if you are reading, and your hide chooses to accept this challenge, do you think you have it in you to attempt to break down the Orthons AC ratings?

I've done the Vision of Destruction raid once and I was really trying to pay attention to keeping myself and someone else alive, along with running like a lunatic and other things... so I'd need a CR and likely AC number before I could break it down. Also, I don't possess the Monster Manual II so I don't know what armor they are technically wearing. However, I can attempt to break down the basic everyday Vale of Twilight Orthon (CR 15 on normal) who has 38 AC.

10 Base
+1 DEX (13 DEX)
+15 Natural Armor Bonus from 15 HD
+12 from something like +5 Half Plate


Now, start adding another 1 AC per HD (close to 1 AC per CR) and tack on another +10 for being red named at that level range and thats probably why it has an AC in the 60 range.

[Zenako]

First off you do not have to be "uber" to do a LOT better in those quests. It is pretty easy to reduce the AC of a mob by using Destruction Weapons and even sundering them. Used to be a HUGE issue back in Tempest Spine and those Blackguards. Use a destruction weapon on then (-4 to their AC) and suddenly the party DPS shoots up. Boost your Hit Prob a bunch using things like Divine Power Clickies if you can't cast the spell. Fills in all those missing BAB spots.

Having HIGH AC targets means that you cannot gimp hit prob for DPS. Were the clerics dropping spells like Recitation for example? Or even Prayer? Pretty soon you can take that only hit on 19's targets down to where you are hitting on 9's for example and that means you are dishing out almost 6 times as much net damage.

It is very easy for melee's to get stuck in ruts of see target, swing at target, expect to always hit target - error error not auto hitting----oops--that does not compute----how to process now?????

One of the penalties for all the abilities non full BAB classes get is just that, having a bit lower BAB for hitting with. Against those AC20 mobs, no one cares, everyone is hitting on anything but a 1 anyway. Make the mob have high AC and then the benefits of a full BAB and using +5 weapons for example come home to roost.

[MrWizard]

with mobs that have high ac, or with groups with low pluses to hit, I find it best to bring down the mobs ac....


Sunder, remember that? If we all try it once one ight land...-4 ac right? Shaken?
Destruction...-4ac...done deal
Cripple - 50% slowed and lower ac, easier to get in attacks from flank or behind
Slowburst, eventually miss save and with cripple it barely swings, can barely move, and AC is not much of an issue at that point
tendon slice?

Can you think of other weapons that do things to a monster that can slow them, shake them, confuse them....or lower ac?
When was the last time someone just blinded them with that old 'blinding' weapon?

You can brind the ACs down pretty easy. You would be surprised what just a destruction will do to your chances to hit. I mean if you can only hit on a 19 and then it is destructed, well, then you hit on a 15. Some other things like sunder and slowburst and you start hitting on a 9... Heck, even the striaght non fighting wiz can start hitting him.

Oh, and if you have a wiz, hold monster gets you auto crits. A wiz with two puncture daggers and he is down. and so on...

[Yaga_Nub]

.... You would be surprised what just a destruction will do to your chances to hit....

Ummm, make your chances to hit go up by 4?

[Zenako]

Ummm, make your chances to hit go up by 4?

more or less, assuming you already hit on a 20 or less...if you gonna still need 20's well that is another story.

Back in the day my ranger dex build would often wade into blackguards using a nice Cursespewer of Destuction on them. I hit for minimal damage (on them since no one takes Blackguard as a favored enemy...), but helped the party a LOT.

[MrCow]

Can you think of other weapons that do things to a monster that can slow them, shake them, confuse them....or lower ac?

Ways to lower AC:

Sunder (-4, does not work on things with no substance like wraiths, -5 if someone has improved sunder)
Destruction weapon effect (-4)
Monk's Eagle Strike (-4)
Monk's Unbalancing Strike (-2, does not work on things with no substance)
Slow (-1)
Blindness (-2 and denies any DEX bonus to AC)
Exhaustion (-3 from 6 less DEX)
Strength Sapping (-3 from 6 less DEX, stacks with Exhaustion)
Alevo unbalancing (-2)
Ooze Sundering Guard (-5)

Dexterity damage was not included above, such as Maladroit or Contagion: Shakes.

Sunder, remember that? If we all try it once one ight land...-4 ac right? Shaken?
Destruction...-4ac...done deal
Cripple - 50% slowed and lower ac, easier to get in attacks from flank or behind
Slowburst, eventually miss save and with cripple it barely swings, can barely move, and AC is not much of an issue at that point
tendon slice?

Shaken and Crippling do not lower AC, although they are still helpful. Also, once you get a monster down to 10% movement speed there is no point in stacking anything else as that is as slow as you can get them.

[Angelus_dead]

Ways to lower AC:

The Alveo shield imposes a -2 Unbalanced penalty to AC. I haven't tested if it stacks with Unbalancing Strike, but since Alveo doesn't enable sneak attacks the effects are non-identical.
You can build a Green Steel item of Ooze Sunder, which is -5 AC and stacks with regular sunder.

[Borror0]

Kind of long-winded, but the point is that some of the end-game content is really just not beatable unless you are more of the power-gamer type - in my opinion.

I would agree for Vision, which was clearly made for the powergamers, but not Hound.

Hound is dead easy, as long as no one pee in their pants and LISTENS!

[Galapas]

Ways to lower AC:

Sunder (-4, does not work on things with no substance like wraiths, -5 if someone has improved sunder)
Destruction weapon effect (-4)
Monk's Eagle Strike (-4)
Monk's Unbalancing Strike (-2, does not work on things with no substance)
Slow (-1)
Blindness (-2 and denies any DEX bonus to AC)
Exhaustion (-3 from 6 less DEX)
Strength Sapping (-3 from 6 less DEX, stacks with Exhaustion)

Dexterity damage was not included above, such as Maladroit or Contagion: Shakes.



Shaken and Crippling do not lower AC, although they are still helpful. Also, once you get a monster down to 10% movement speed there is no point in stacking anything else as that is as slow as you can get them.

Which of these don't work on red named bosses?

[Angelus_dead]

I would agree for Vision, which was clearly made for the powergamers, but not Hound.

VOD is also easy, but does impose more constraints and requires both better team composition, better gear, and all-around affirmative participation. I get a little sad when I see a VOD raid with 1 barb, 4 fighters, and 2 paladins, but 0 rangers and only a few levels of rogue. Those guys won't have the DPS for an easy run... and chances are high that not one of them will be able to intimidate the boss either. But if those roles are covered, it's much better.

Hound is dead easy, as long as no one pee in their pants and LISTENS!

Yes, but really Hound of Xoriat doesn't even require that most of the group contribute much.
As long as you have three players who know what to do regarding boss aggro, charming, and healing, then the other 9 can just do whatever random stuff they feel like within two limitations:
1. Don't kill dogs.
2. Don't grab stones.

So long as they don't screw it up by making either of those mistakes, they're free to run wild and randomly kill monsters.

[debo]

I am so tired of the "where is the love for the casual-gamer" argument. So tired.

[Aspenor]

I am so tired of the "where is the love for the casual-gamer" argument. So tired.

What I am tired of is the assumption that casual gamer = horrible player.

What the OP is talking about is a bunch of noobish morons, not casual players.

[MrCow]

Which of these don't work on red named bosses?

Destruction from a weapon and a Monk's Eagle Strike works on anything.

Sunder and Unbalancing Strike work on things with substance (you can't Sunder the Avatar of Jubilex for instance)

Exhaustion and Strength Sapping work on all things that can be fatigued (pretty much all living things, including oozes, excluding warforged).

Slow and Blindness do not work on red named things (nor will glitterdust).

I have never possessed Alevo or an Ooze Sundering Guard item so you will have to rely on others for that information.

[Averroes]

with mobs that have high ac, or with groups with low pluses to hit, I find it best to bring down the mobs ac....


Sunder, remember that? If we all try it once one ight land...-4 ac right? Shaken?
Destruction...-4ac...done deal
Cripple - 50% slowed and lower ac, easier to get in attacks from flank or behind
Slowburst, eventually miss save and with cripple it barely swings, can barely move, and AC is not much of an issue at that point
tendon slice?

And then you could add:
Ray of exhaustion for -3 AC
waves of fatigue for another -1
And waves of exhaustion (which lists its effect separately and so might stack...) for another -3.


I rather enjoy that there's now a little bit of opportunity cost for dumping all of one's attack bonus into damage. I mean, I run a character with 12 sorc levels and ranks in warforged power attack. He should never hit anything, but 95% of the monsters in this game have ACs under 30...

In any case, I still hit normal orthons on a 2 with most of my characters most of the time (that sorc excepted), so if you aren't you should be looking at your own attack bonus before you look at reducing their AC -- are you a) using a +5 or better weapon, b) buffed (greater hero, rage spell or pot, recitation, haste, maybe a divine favor clicky -- +9 attack from all those together), c) unstanced (power attack is a damage reduction if you're not hitting on like a 4 or thereabouts).


The gap here isn't between people with uber gear and people without it. The gap is between people who bring the appropriate tools and buffs for the job and those who don't...

Just like the gap between the level 4 barbarian who has figured out he can drink heroism and haste pots and the level 4 barbarian who only knows to swing his axe.

[DelScorcho]

Hound is dead easy, as long as no one pee in their pants

In case someone does, is there a backup plan?

/waits for some one to say "Depends".

[dragons1ayer74]

Do destruction, sunder and Eagle Strike all stack?

[Averroes]

VOD is also easy, but does impose more constraints and requires both better team composition, better gear, and all-around affirmative participation.

That's what makes it hard.

And you're exactly right -- that's also what makes hound easy. It's rarely a problem to get 3 skilled people together in a group of 12, but to form a group of 12 without anyone who's just along for the ride is a real challenge.

I've had a couple of Vision raids with people who... Well, I'm amazed they made it to 16, and I'll leave it at that. When the 9-strength ranged ranger pulls agro from the barbarian, your Vision raid is not going to succeed. And I've seen that a bunch -- 1 ranger kills the orthon he's soloing faster than the other 7 fighter-types can take down the one they're all swinging at.

But with reasonable DPS and people who can at least sometimes follow instructions, no, Vision isn't that hard.

[Galapas]

And then you could add:
Ray of exhaustion for -3 AC
waves of fatigue for another -1
And waves of exhaustion (which lists its effect separately and so might stack...) for another -3.

Nice thought, but it won't work. "Exhaustion" is a status that overwrite fatigue. You don't get the -6 to str and dex because you were hit by the spell, you get them because you have the status of "Exhausted". You may have 3 different spells that make you exhausted or fatigued, but you only suffer one status adjustment. At least, that's how it's supposed to be.

One thing that is supposed to happen, but I haven't tested in game - any fatigued creature is supposed to automatically fail its save against the exhaustion spells.

[Averroes]

Nice thought, but it won't work. "Exhaustion" is a status that overwrite fatigue. You don't get the -6 to str and dex because you were hit by the spell, you get them because you have the status of "Exhausted". You may have 3 different spells that make you exhausted or fatigued, but you only suffer one status adjustment. At least, that's how it's supposed to be.

One thing that is supposed to happen, but I haven't tested in game - any fatigued creature is supposed to automatically fail its save against the exhaustion spells.

These don't work remotely like they should, but I haven't tested them "exhaustively". I agree that that's how they should be though, fwiw.

They do all show their effects separately when you examine something though.

And I'm reasonably sure that my barbarian has been both exhausted (from a spell) and fatigued (from rage) at the same time. But I've been wrong before...