Ok explain to me again why Orthons have such high AC...

[GlassCannon]

I want a full DEVELOPER breakdown of their AC and why it is that high.

If someone else has an actual set of numbers based on AC tests, they are free to post.

Lately, that is the make-or-break of certain raids that contain Orthons.


Additionally, they wield Spears, not shields. Their AC makes no sense to me.

[DaveyCrockett]

Doesn't look too armored up.. I see lots of holes.

[xanvar]

Tough skin?

[Cordelia]

Wicked!

[Rameses]

that is a cool pic.
I'd guess and I am not looking a Monster Manual from PnP, but most of the AC for an Orthon comes from a Demonic aura?

I am, Rameses!

[DaveyCrockett]

Also, that is a Hellspear known as a Duom in the hands of that Orthon.

[Mhykke]

Because Orthons have been complaining that their DPS isn't all that great, and that they get a ton of feats as they level up, but not enough good ones int the game to choose from.

So Mod 7 was unofficially: Orthon Love.

[Venar]

They have good equipement.
+8 Ac bracers, Prot 5 necklace, deflection 5 item...

[Nevthial]

Like most evil outsiders they have an exceptionally high natural armour bonus. ( Which is jacked up to match our insane to hit bonuses.)

[Riggs]

Orthon rangers -
10 base ac
+11 level 30 barkskin (with no upper limit to ac)
+22 from + 15 half plate (min level 28)
+7 good guard bracers (dodge bonus)
+10 protection ring (min level 23)
+10 devilish /outsider natual armor bonus

= 60 ac

or evil paladin with +11 from aura bonus.

...or basic items, and +40 outsider bonus

[GlassCannon]

Orthon rangers -
10 base ac
+11 level 30 barkskin (with no upper limit to ac)
+22 from + 15 half plate (min level 28)
+7 good guard bracers (dodge bonus)
+10 protection ring (min level 23)
+10 devilish /outsider natual armor bonus

= 60 ac

or evil paladin with +11 from aura bonus.

...or basic items, and +40 outsider bonus

That could work too, but it's till a bit high for our level, unless everyone is swinging around tier 3 Greensteels.... which they aren't.

[GlassCannon]

Like most evil outsiders they have an exceptionally high natural armour bonus. ( Which is jacked up to match our insane to hit bonuses.)

I seem to run with parties of late that simply do not have any gear worth a darn, or don't know what it means to "switch weapons". I tend to excessively outkill the entire party with my Monk, for example.... that or the Rogue Pure gets all the kills with his nasty bonus before weapons are factored in. That said, my Monk can't hit the blasted things on any less than a 19(crit).

Due to this, the Shroud run wiped. We beat everything but the Orthon, which had an AC too high for anyone to touch(no Bard, and don't tell me that's a problem... sometimes you just can't find one), so we put the entire party on it and by the time we rolled enough criticals to hit it and make it fall, everything else had full HP.... in Vision of Destruction, we were handling the main guy and the devils OK, just spending lots of resources(total of 1500 Heal scrolls and 400 Reconstructs, in addition to 20 Major Mnemonics)... then the Orthons came out again and wiped us. The first time we were fully buffed, the last, we had nothing left. Their AC was too high and they mauled us pretty quickly. Edit3: The VoD run was done with my Warforged Tempest Ranger(Thus the Reconstructs), using weapons gathered over a 2 year period that were dealing healthy DPS... enough to constantly grab aggro off the barbarians. He does not have Greensteel gear.



Edit2: Don't brag that your guild can beat it no problem. PuGs need to be able to do the thing too, with experienced members that know their class and play well... but are not twinked out to the absolute maximum this game allows at this point. Else, we would run it once every 6 months for resource's sake, and ignore the 3 day timer.

[Vua]

I seem to run with parties of late that simply do not have any gear worth a darn, or don't know what it means to "switch weapons". I tend to excessively outkill the entire party with my Monk, for example.... that or the Rogue Pure gets all the kills with his nasty bonus before weapons are factored in. That said, my Monk can't hit the blasted things on any less than a 19(crit).

Due to this, the Shroud run wiped. We beat everything but the Orthon, which had an AC too high for anyone to touch(no Bard, and don't tell me that's a problem... sometimes you just can't find one), so we put the entire party on it and by the time we rolled enough criticals to hit it and make it fall, everything else had full HP.... in Vision of Destruction, we were handling the main guy and the devils OK, just spending lots of resources(total of 1500 Heal scrolls and 400 Reconstructs, in addition to 20 Major Mnemonics)... then the Orthons came out again and wiped us. The first time we were fully buffed, the last, we had nothing left. Their AC was too high and they mauled us pretty quickly. Edit3: The VoD run was done with my Warforged Tempest Ranger(Thus the Reconstructs), using weapons gathered over a 2 year period that were dealing healthy DPS... enough to constantly grab aggro off the barbarians. He does not have Greensteel gear.



Edit2: Don't brag that your guild can beat it no problem. PuGs need to be able to do the thing too, with experienced members that know their class and play well... but are not twinked out to the absolute maximum this game allows at this point. Else, we would run it once every 6 months for resource's sake, and ignore the 3 day timer.

Turn off power attack.

[winsom]

the Armor Class of elite scorpions and some undead (i.e. armored skeletons) are even less-believable from a D&D-standpoint.

Ever try to kill all the undead near the fire giant mini-boss in stormcleave on elite? It's seriously a bad idea and a waste of resources. Maybe the quest is trying to enforce the alternative tactic of kill the boss, loot, then run away, but it seems very strange to have these nearly unhittable piles of bones-creatures that happen to have supremely high attack bonuses.

[Aspenor]

As the foot-soldiers of Hell, orthons have high natural AC and thus do not need to use a shield.

Note that they have a special type of weapon as well, which is intended to be allowed to be used to attack foes behind them and to the sides as well at a -2 penalty, all in the same round.

They also have their ranged weapons in DDO, however, they do not have their "maggot burst" ability. In that respect, I consider us lucky.

[Aranticus]

They have good equipement.
+8 Ac bracers, Prot 5 necklace, deflection 5 item...

a prot 5 = deflection 5.....


but prolly ya right, for orthons they stack

[Missing_Minds]

the Armor Class of elite scorpions and some undead (i.e. armored skeletons) are even less-believable from a D&D-standpoint.

Ever try to kill all the undead near the fire giant mini-boss in stormcleave on elite? It's seriously a bad idea and a waste of resources. Maybe the quest is trying to enforce the alternative tactic of kill the boss, loot, then run away, but it seems very strange to have these nearly unhittable piles of bones-creatures that happen to have supremely high attack bonuses.

I hear you on the scorps and undead. Freaking ridiculous. I never understood why blackbones in the middle of stormcleave also. How does it make sence from the storyline aspect other than say a DM getting ticked at whiny players so threw something completely out of left field at them.

But as everyone knows, the OP cried for a dev, so they won't answer at all. So therefore, MrCow, if you are reading, and your hide chooses to accept this challenge, do you think you have it in you to attempt to break down the Orthons AC ratings? Granted, it seems as if we went to the special elite guard (in normal VOD) version of Orthons rather than your standard Orthon in the Shroud.

But also OP, the Devs have stated how you can make Elite Shroud Orthon's AC be squat as well. That much they have posted.

[Aranticus]

As the foot-soldiers of Hell, orthons have high natural AC and thus do not need to use a shield.

Note that they have a special type of weapon as well, which is intended to be allowed to be used to attack foes behind them and to the sides as well at a -2 penalty, all in the same round.

They also have their ranged weapons in DDO, however, they do not have their "maggot burst" ability. In that respect, I consider us lucky.

i wonder when we'll get repeaters like the orthons use..... 5 shots wait..... i'll need 10 more quivers

[Aspenor]

Orthons are intended to be a major challenge for high level adventurers. They are lethal to both the demons they primarily combat in the wars of Hell (Shavarath in Eberron) and also to high-level mortal adventurers.

Due to the inflated to-hit values of most characters (50 strength barbarians, 34 strength fighters...) more than likely the developers tacked on extra natural AC to the orthon's normally high AC in PnP.

As a previous poster stated, try turning off power attack. I have very little trouble hitting/confirming crits on orthons with even my 3/4 BAB rogue assuming I am not using combat expertise.

[iruka41]

the Armor Class of elite scorpions and some undead (i.e. armored skeletons) are even less-believable from a D&D-standpoint.

Ever try to kill all the undead near the fire giant mini-boss in stormcleave on elite? It's seriously a bad idea and a waste of resources. Maybe the quest is trying to enforce the alternative tactic of kill the boss, loot, then run away, but it seems very strange to have these nearly unhittable piles of bones-creatures that happen to have supremely high attack bonuses.

Maybe an alternative tactic of using Greater Banes (Min.Lv.6).

From a DPS class's point of view,
a Giant Stalker's Knife and a Heavy Mace of Greater Undead Bane (If you don't have it try +3 blunt weapon of Righteousness),
load of Heroism, Haste, Rage, and Bull (or Cat for DEX builds) pots, then you're all set for SC Elite at level 6.

Along with +4 armors and shields and some pots (like SoF/Bark +3, Cat's Grace) you won't get much hit also.

Don't worry much about resources, there's 4 shrines in there.
(Usually you don't need the 4th, or even 3rd on elite unless you're trying that on much lower levels)