Ok explain to me again why Orthons have such high AC...

[GlassCannon]

I want a full DEVELOPER breakdown of their AC and why it is that high.

If someone else has an actual set of numbers based on AC tests, they are free to post.

Lately, that is the make-or-break of certain raids that contain Orthons.


Additionally, they wield Spears, not shields. Their AC makes no sense to me.

[DaveyCrockett]

Doesn't look too armored up.. I see lots of holes.

[xanvar]

Tough skin?

[Cordelia]

Wicked!

[Rameses]

that is a cool pic.
I'd guess and I am not looking a Monster Manual from PnP, but most of the AC for an Orthon comes from a Demonic aura?

I am, Rameses!

[DaveyCrockett]

Also, that is a Hellspear known as a Duom in the hands of that Orthon.

[Mhykke]

Because Orthons have been complaining that their DPS isn't all that great, and that they get a ton of feats as they level up, but not enough good ones int the game to choose from.

So Mod 7 was unofficially: Orthon Love.

[baddax]

Doesn't look too armored up.. I see lots of holes.

Ok you tell this guy he only has a 28 AC!

[Merkinsal]

"Hey You! You only have 29 ac"

*emote* run away run away

[Durack]

from the Fiendish Codex
(part 1)

[Durack]

(part 2 )


8( pics wont display

here's a link for orthon out of the fiendish codex
http://www.inthecore.com/ddo/modules...iewtopic&t=576

[winsom]

the Armor Class of elite scorpions and some undead (i.e. armored skeletons) are even less-believable from a D&D-standpoint.

Ever try to kill all the undead near the fire giant mini-boss in stormcleave on elite? It's seriously a bad idea and a waste of resources. Maybe the quest is trying to enforce the alternative tactic of kill the boss, loot, then run away, but it seems very strange to have these nearly unhittable piles of bones-creatures that happen to have supremely high attack bonuses.

[Missing_Minds]

the Armor Class of elite scorpions and some undead (i.e. armored skeletons) are even less-believable from a D&D-standpoint.

Ever try to kill all the undead near the fire giant mini-boss in stormcleave on elite? It's seriously a bad idea and a waste of resources. Maybe the quest is trying to enforce the alternative tactic of kill the boss, loot, then run away, but it seems very strange to have these nearly unhittable piles of bones-creatures that happen to have supremely high attack bonuses.

I hear you on the scorps and undead. Freaking ridiculous. I never understood why blackbones in the middle of stormcleave also. How does it make sence from the storyline aspect other than say a DM getting ticked at whiny players so threw something completely out of left field at them.

But as everyone knows, the OP cried for a dev, so they won't answer at all. So therefore, MrCow, if you are reading, and your hide chooses to accept this challenge, do you think you have it in you to attempt to break down the Orthons AC ratings? Granted, it seems as if we went to the special elite guard (in normal VOD) version of Orthons rather than your standard Orthon in the Shroud.

But also OP, the Devs have stated how you can make Elite Shroud Orthon's AC be squat as well. That much they have posted.

[iruka41]

the Armor Class of elite scorpions and some undead (i.e. armored skeletons) are even less-believable from a D&D-standpoint.

Ever try to kill all the undead near the fire giant mini-boss in stormcleave on elite? It's seriously a bad idea and a waste of resources. Maybe the quest is trying to enforce the alternative tactic of kill the boss, loot, then run away, but it seems very strange to have these nearly unhittable piles of bones-creatures that happen to have supremely high attack bonuses.

Maybe an alternative tactic of using Greater Banes (Min.Lv.6).

From a DPS class's point of view,
a Giant Stalker's Knife and a Heavy Mace of Greater Undead Bane (If you don't have it try +3 blunt weapon of Righteousness),
load of Heroism, Haste, Rage, and Bull (or Cat for DEX builds) pots, then you're all set for SC Elite at level 6.

Along with +4 armors and shields and some pots (like SoF/Bark +3, Cat's Grace) you won't get much hit also.

Don't worry much about resources, there's 4 shrines in there.
(Usually you don't need the 4th, or even 3rd on elite unless you're trying that on much lower levels)

[MrCow]

So therefore, MrCow, if you are reading, and your hide chooses to accept this challenge, do you think you have it in you to attempt to break down the Orthons AC ratings?

I've done the Vision of Destruction raid once and I was really trying to pay attention to keeping myself and someone else alive, along with running like a lunatic and other things... so I'd need a CR and likely AC number before I could break it down. Also, I don't possess the Monster Manual II so I don't know what armor they are technically wearing. However, I can attempt to break down the basic everyday Vale of Twilight Orthon (CR 15 on normal) who has 38 AC.

10 Base
+1 DEX (13 DEX)
+15 Natural Armor Bonus from 15 HD
+12 from something like +5 Half Plate


Now, start adding another 1 AC per HD (close to 1 AC per CR) and tack on another +10 for being red named at that level range and thats probably why it has an AC in the 60 range.

[MrWizard]

with mobs that have high ac, or with groups with low pluses to hit, I find it best to bring down the mobs ac....


Sunder, remember that? If we all try it once one ight land...-4 ac right? Shaken?
Destruction...-4ac...done deal
Cripple - 50% slowed and lower ac, easier to get in attacks from flank or behind
Slowburst, eventually miss save and with cripple it barely swings, can barely move, and AC is not much of an issue at that point
tendon slice?

Can you think of other weapons that do things to a monster that can slow them, shake them, confuse them....or lower ac?
When was the last time someone just blinded them with that old 'blinding' weapon?

You can brind the ACs down pretty easy. You would be surprised what just a destruction will do to your chances to hit. I mean if you can only hit on a 19 and then it is destructed, well, then you hit on a 15. Some other things like sunder and slowburst and you start hitting on a 9... Heck, even the striaght non fighting wiz can start hitting him.

Oh, and if you have a wiz, hold monster gets you auto crits. A wiz with two puncture daggers and he is down. and so on...

[Yaga_Nub]

.... You would be surprised what just a destruction will do to your chances to hit....

Ummm, make your chances to hit go up by 4?

[Zenako]

Ummm, make your chances to hit go up by 4?

more or less, assuming you already hit on a 20 or less...if you gonna still need 20's well that is another story.

Back in the day my ranger dex build would often wade into blackguards using a nice Cursespewer of Destuction on them. I hit for minimal damage (on them since no one takes Blackguard as a favored enemy...), but helped the party a LOT.

[MrCow]

Can you think of other weapons that do things to a monster that can slow them, shake them, confuse them....or lower ac?

Ways to lower AC:

Sunder (-4, does not work on things with no substance like wraiths, -5 if someone has improved sunder)
Destruction weapon effect (-4)
Monk's Eagle Strike (-4)
Monk's Unbalancing Strike (-2, does not work on things with no substance)
Slow (-1)
Blindness (-2 and denies any DEX bonus to AC)
Exhaustion (-3 from 6 less DEX)
Strength Sapping (-3 from 6 less DEX, stacks with Exhaustion)
Alevo unbalancing (-2)
Ooze Sundering Guard (-5)

Dexterity damage was not included above, such as Maladroit or Contagion: Shakes.

Sunder, remember that? If we all try it once one ight land...-4 ac right? Shaken?
Destruction...-4ac...done deal
Cripple - 50% slowed and lower ac, easier to get in attacks from flank or behind
Slowburst, eventually miss save and with cripple it barely swings, can barely move, and AC is not much of an issue at that point
tendon slice?

Shaken and Crippling do not lower AC, although they are still helpful. Also, once you get a monster down to 10% movement speed there is no point in stacking anything else as that is as slow as you can get them.

[Angelus_dead]

Ways to lower AC:

The Alveo shield imposes a -2 Unbalanced penalty to AC. I haven't tested if it stacks with Unbalancing Strike, but since Alveo doesn't enable sneak attacks the effects are non-identical.
You can build a Green Steel item of Ooze Sunder, which is -5 AC and stacks with regular sunder.