Good way to avoid bad Pugs

[sirgog]

I take the first 5 people who want to join...

And we do fine about 85% of the time....

10% of the time, we struggle, but I pull us through by being the hero (usually there's at least one other good player in these "bad" PUGs, so it's more like the two of us pull everyone else through)

That 10% is actually quite fun....

Then there's the 5% where everything falls apart, total wipes, group disbands...

Those can be discouraging... But they happen pretty rarely...

I also do this, in all bar three types of quests.

1) Powerlevelling runs - if I just want to level fast, I'm more picky in who I take.

2) End-game raids - There are times you need at least ten of the twelve to be able to pull their weight. Particularly in the Shroud.

3) Quests that can be ruined by someone who doesn't pay attention. Quests which can be failed because someone fireballs/heals the Venerated, or charms a must-kill mindless undead (Delara's cough cough), sticks their Finger of Death up at hostages (The Cursed Crypt), sets off really, really bad traps (Cursed Crypt again, can lose chests to this) or where everyone can get lost if they don't pay attention (The Shadow Crypt, Inferno of the Damned).


But my other favorite way to get a solid party?
Post an LFM where you have 4-5 melee toons, and accept any class, not just a cleric. Most bad players will not go on a quest with no Clr.

[Sargoth]

I take the first 5 people who want to join...

And we do fine about 85% of the time....

10% of the time, we struggle, but I pull us through by being the hero (usually there's at least one other good player in these "bad" PUGs, so it's more like the two of us pull everyone else through)

That 10% is actually quite fun....

Then there's the 5% where everything falls apart, total wipes, group disbands...

Those can be discouraging... But they happen pretty rarely...

QFT

[sirgog]

I just keep a stack of Word of Recall scrolls on my hotbar. If the PUG I am in sucks real bad, well I figure its past time that I visited the temple.

"****, where the hell the cleric go?"

"Don't know he just went poof and vanished."

... "Sorry guys, wrong scroll. Good luck to ya."

*ding

ROFL!

Gotta try this one sometime...

[miceelf88]

I am always kind of leery of joining pugs that don't already include a cleric.
Not because I am not self-sufficient, but because my experience has been that most pugs will expect my warchanter buffer build to act as a primary healer in the absence of a cleric.

[DoctorWhofan]

I am always kind of leery of joining pugs that don't already include a cleric.
Not because I am not self-sufficient, but because my experience has been that most pugs will expect my warchanter buffer build to act as a primary healer in the absence of a cleric.

And I don't blame ya. When my healing bard joins a party, firat thing is asked is can I heal. He is specced to heal so I say yes. But I do understand the feeling. Just watch out for the "Looking for Healer" LFMs, they usually have a bard symol in the box.

[Zenako]

If I can solo the quest on normal with my cleric, then pretty much any group composition should be able to handle a harder setting.

As for the group of 4 monks and a rogue, I have found that for most low to mid level quests, those should have little issues keeping everyone in an upright and standing position between all their healing abilities using ki. Been running a lot of GH lately with my cleric and some guild members and often have 3 monks in the crew. Work pretty well generally.

[Ryavin]

But my other favorite way to get a solid party?
Post an LFM where you have 4-5 melee toons, and accept any class, not just a cleric. Most bad players will not go on a quest with no Clr.[/QUOTE]


So ture and works.

[JayDubya]

But my other favorite way to get a solid party?
Post an LFM where you have 4-5 melee toons, and accept any class, not just a cleric. Most bad players will not go on a quest with no Clr.

Yeah, that works for me as well. Going cleric-less is often a lot of fun.

When I create the group, I'm also quite liberal about letting anyone join, except for certain quests where there are some must-haves. But those aren't that common.

In reference back to my original point and some of the responses thereof: there are times when I don't feel like running the group - low energy, or distractions around the house.

Also, yes, of course, the party finding the LFG is not a guarantee of smarter play. My recent experiences, however, suggest that they pay at least a little more attention overall.

Anyways, it's been an interesting discussion!

[Frodo_Lives]

When on my cleric I tend to look at the group as a whole in terms of levels, quest that they want to run, leader, and lastly the party composition.

If a group is looking to do something that I know is over the heads of most PuGs for that level range, I won't join. If the leader is the lowest level of the group and is only looking for members higher level then them, I won't join. If the party is made up of a bunch of WF melee, I will have to think about it. An oddball group can be fun, an oddball group doing something that is going to be really challanging can be fun. However if I don't know anyone in the group it can also be a nightmare for a cleric as some people love to blame the cleric for anything and everything that can and does go wrong in a quest.

I am not really choosey about what groups I join on any of my characters, even my clerics. However I do tend to look for the warning signs that a PuG is doomed to failure and aviod those groups.

[parvo]

Obviously the first way is to be in a good, active, busy guild, but alas, that is not an option for me right now.

My current practice - if I see a group that's got an LFM for a cleric, I'll put myself on 'LFG'. If they notice and ask me to join, that means they're paying attention, and probably know the game reasonably well.

And if not, well, then I probably didn't want to group with them anyways.

I know a couple of good, active, busy guilds with the added benefit, they know you too.

[richieelias27]

If I can solo the quest on normal with my cleric, then pretty much any group composition should be able to handle a harder setting.

As for the group of 4 monks and a rogue, I have found that for most low to mid level quests, those should have little issues keeping everyone in an upright and standing position between all their healing abilities using ki. Been running a lot of GH lately with my cleric and some guild members and often have 3 monks in the crew. Work pretty well generally.

Low level quests dont count :P you could finish those with any group makeup.

[Gaermain]

Pug's I tend to avoid:

LFM's that say "NEED HEALER," "NEED CLERIC," or "NEED HEALS," etc in the comments. Especially when the LFM is comprised of 5 players that should be able to easily solo/duo the quest. A group of 5 level 3-4 characters doing WW on normal, for example. Bonus points when every single member of the group is able to scroll or wand repair/cure.

LFM's comprised of the leader only - but yet have a/or class(es) excluded from the LFM. Bonus points if they exclude rogues - and state "caster must have knock."

LFM's with "Need DPS" comments, but display fighters, barbarians, paladins only.

LFM's with comments that "require" that an arcane character have a certain spell or melee characters have a certain weapon.

The basic theme to all of my "dont's" is pretty much the same: Any indication that the leader/group just cannot move without a cleric, or by way of other comments and class exclusions pigeon-hole one single way to meet an objective - will make me look elsewhere with my cleric.

Now, Pug's I will jump in without hesitation:

LFM's, regardless of how many or what is in the group - have all classes displayed.

LFM's with comment(s) along the lines of: six and go, BYOH. I'll trip over myself trying to get my cleric in if the comment is something humorous like: Be able to wipe your own nose. Your UMD works on wands, heal thyself.

LFM's with the comments: New to quest, first time completing, etc. Yes, oddly enough I have no patience for the group leader who's LFM for the Tor requires the caster to have Flesh to Stone - but I have oodles of patience for new players and groups experiencing something for the first time. Especially when playing my cleric(s).

I Pug a lot. I do start my own LFM's if I'm looking for something particular: favor, an end reward, relics, etc. But I spend my days talking non-stop coordinating things, giving instructions, and telling people what to and what not to do...so I don't really want to spend my lesiure time doing that as well.

I apply my self-imposed rules for joining a pug to my groups when putting one together:

Take six and go. Don't have six...well...let's go anyway.

If there is a ruin/lever that needs to be hit my LFM will state just that "need something to hit the XXX ruin/lever." I don't care what or who it is - just be able to hit it.

You know your build, I don't. If something specific is needed in a quest I'll state what's needed and take anyone who hits the LFM. There are fighters who can hit INT ruins, paladins who can hit CHA ruins, rangers who can hit WIS ruins, bards who can hit STR levers, and tons of high reflex/hit point/evasion builds who "I can't get the trap but I can get through it to accomplish XXX" Awesome - let's go!

I tend to play at 'non-peak' hours, and as a result commonly end up in short-manned, bizzare combination groups. By immersing myself in the game in this manner, I've come across some really interesting builds and some really cool people. I've also partcipated in some really, really fun groups. Oddly enough, the hodge-podge groups tend to be more fun than the standard groups. As an extra bonus - I've learned a lot about the game, the dungeons, their mechanics, and little tips and tricks along the way.

[bandyman1]

My strategy to get the strongest group possible is to send /tells when forming a group to builds that are current or recent 'flavor of the month' builds from the forums.

These include:

1) Any multiclass toon with exactly 6 levels of Ranger (no more, no less). These are one of my first picks for melee toons. Particularly valued are Rgr6/RogX and Rgr6/Ftr1/RogX.
2) Any toon that is all bard, save 1-2 levels of Ftr or Brb (another highly-valued melee toon)
3) RogX/Ftr1 builds (highly-valued melee toon)
4) ClrX/Ftr1 or ClrX/Pal1-2 (powerful melee toons with excellent secondary or acceptable primary healing. Excellent support healer if you are playing a Cleric yourself)

After finding enough of those types of characters, I'll fill up the group with anything. But generally, players playing these builds are more likely to have 16th level alts, solid or awesome gear for their level, and know enough to play solidly if not well.

There's the occasional person with one of these builds that isn't at least mediocre, but this is quite rare in my experience.

I do this as well for the most part, but I've got to ask;

What melee advantage does a Roguex/Ftr1 have over my pure rogue? Not seeing how 1 point of Str, 9 extra HPs, and one extra feat is making a difference ?

[Thrudh]

Pug's I tend to avoid:

LFM's that say "NEED HEALER," "NEED CLERIC," or "NEED HEALS," etc in the comments. Especially when the LFM is comprised of 5 players that should be able to easily solo/duo the quest. A group of 5 level 3-4 characters doing WW on normal, for example. Bonus points when every single member of the group is able to scroll or wand repair/cure.

LFM's comprised of the leader only - but yet have a/or class(es) excluded from the LFM. Bonus points if they exclude rogues - and state "caster must have knock."

LFM's with "Need DPS" comments, but display fighters, barbarians, paladins only.

LFM's with comments that "require" that an arcane character have a certain spell or melee characters have a certain weapon.

The basic theme to all of my "dont's" is pretty much the same: Any indication that the leader/group just cannot move without a cleric, or by way of other comments and class exclusions pigeon-hole one single way to meet an objective - will make me look elsewhere with my cleric.

Now, Pug's I will jump in without hesitation:

LFM's, regardless of how many or what is in the group - have all classes displayed.

LFM's with comment(s) along the lines of: six and go, BYOH. I'll trip over myself trying to get my cleric in if the comment is something humorous like: Be able to wipe your own nose. Your UMD works on wands, heal thyself.

LFM's with the comments: New to quest, first time completing, etc. Yes, oddly enough I have no patience for the group leader who's LFM for the Tor requires the caster to have Flesh to Stone - but I have oodles of patience for new players and groups experiencing something for the first time. Especially when playing my cleric(s).

I Pug a lot. I do start my own LFM's if I'm looking for something particular: favor, an end reward, relics, etc. But I spend my days talking non-stop coordinating things, giving instructions, and telling people what to and what not to do...so I don't really want to spend my lesiure time doing that as well.

I apply my self-imposed rules for joining a pug to my groups when putting one together:

Take six and go. Don't have six...well...let's go anyway.

If there is a ruin/lever that needs to be hit my LFM will state just that "need something to hit the XXX ruin/lever." I don't care what or who it is - just be able to hit it.

You know your build, I don't. If something specific is needed in a quest I'll state what's needed and take anyone who hits the LFM. There are fighters who can hit INT ruins, paladins who can hit CHA ruins, rangers who can hit WIS ruins, bards who can hit STR levers, and tons of high reflex/hit point/evasion builds who "I can't get the trap but I can get through it to accomplish XXX" Awesome - let's go!

I tend to play at 'non-peak' hours, and as a result commonly end up in short-manned, bizzare combination groups. By immersing myself in the game in this manner, I've come across some really interesting builds and some really cool people. I've also partcipated in some really, really fun groups. Oddly enough, the hodge-podge groups tend to be more fun than the standard groups. As an extra bonus - I've learned a lot about the game, the dungeons, their mechanics, and little tips and tricks along the way.

Excellent post....

[moorewr]

*signs up for Gaermain's newsletter*

[Thrudh]

What melee advantage does a Roguex/Ftr1 have over my pure rogue? Not seeing how 1 point of Str, 9 extra HPs, and one extra feat is making a difference ?

I'm not all that particular... but I would assume that a X rogue/1 fighter is a pretty optimal build... You don't really lose anything (well, the 16th level bonus rogue feat, but sneak attack is exactly the same) and you gain a few things (more weapon choices, shield proficiencies, a more generic combat feat, toughness enhancement, etc.)

I guess it's like seeing a 16th level fighter, and a 13/3 fighter/paladin... Both can be good (I don't care... I'll take whoever in my groups), but I can see how some people might assume the 13/3 fighter/paladin is more likely to be run by a player who cares about optimizing his character...

It used to be people consider multi-class characters "gimped" in some way... Now most power-gamers recognize that multi-classing gives more bang for the buck (if done right) than staying pure....

[bandyman1]

I'm not all that particular... but I would assume that a X rogue/1 fighter is a pretty optimal build... You don't really lose anything (well, the 16th level bonus rogue feat, but sneak attack is exactly the same) and you gain a few things (more weapon choices, shield proficiencies, a more generic combat feat, toughness enhancement, etc.)

I guess it's like seeing a 16th level fighter, and a 13/3 fighter/paladin... Both can be good (I don't care... I'll take whoever in my groups), but I can see how some people might assume the 13/3 fighter/paladin is more likely to be run by a player who cares about optimizing his character...

It used to be people consider multi-class characters "gimped" in some way... Now most power-gamers recognize that multi-classing gives more bang for the buck (if done right) than staying pure....

I see what you're saying...

Not sure I agree on a rogue with one level of fighter though. Like I said; 9 more HPS ( that's 4 for a 10-sided hit die, +5 for fighter's toughness I ), +1 Str., and a feat. That's about it. Shield pros I'll give ya, but any rogue using a shield is gonna be using mithral anyway, so it's a moot point. You don't need the proficiency, because you aren't taking any penalty to-hit when you're using a shield with no skill check penalty.

In return, you just limited the amount of skills you can max out, and like you said, the feat is easily replaced by one of the rogue specials.

Not seeing how that's anymore " optimal ".

[moorewr]

I'd say that funky/flavor-of-the-month builds are a sign of a long-time DDO player (with a few easy to spot exceptions), which is generally more important than how optimal the build is.

I know that my recent builds are not optimized for classic pug roles. There is no question that my cleric/rogue, who is so dear to my heart, is sub-par as a cleric. Of course he is.. he's down two cleric levels and has a non-maximized wisdom*. I know my cleave/whirlwind monk is less useful kicking around Delera's than a well equipped fighter (or any other class). So, yes, you should let my tinker builds in your group; I'll do just fine, but a well built battering ram of a barbarian or any straight caster might bring a lot more uber l33t p0wnage to the party.


* that said he's been tooling around Gianthold (at level 9!) keeping parties alive and doing just fine on the traps.. did all the traps in Maze of Madness the other day...

[LOUDRampart]

If the group is 4 monks and a rogue looking for a cleric..... I dont join.

When I see this, I normally will log on my Battlecleric, join the party, get in the instance and then tell them that I don't heal...

[Tomandrobyncasey]

Speak amungst yourselves....Please continue.