I fail to comprehend these "monsters"

[GlassCannon]

Wow look at my AC... *DEATH NOISE AT 96db*

.....HOW did they hit me? ... so hard... so often...

Why is it that higher level monsters get absolutely obscenely inflated to-hit values? They should be just like PCs but.... evil...er. More evil. Sometimes that's hard to do, out-eviling players, but why can they hit even the most heavily armored tank like he was naked?


If the AC issue continues to be a problem, let's have AC turned into a DR system, eh?


I'd like calculations for tanks wearing their basic offensive gear while standing centered right in the middle of an Antimagic Field, nowhere near a Paladin or Bard.

[Angelus_dead]

Why is it that higher level monsters get absolutely obscenely inflated to-hit values? They should be just like PCs but.... evil...er. More evil.

Lol. Do you have any idea what you're asking for?

Go stand in the PVP pit of a tavern and ask a barb16 to come swing on you. Count how long it takes him to chop you up. See if he cares what AC you've got. You want monsters to be able to attack at that pace?

I'd like calculations for tanks wearing their basic offensive gear while standing centered right in the middle of an Antimagic Field, nowhere near a Paladin or Bard.

Guess what? This game doesn't take place inside an antimagic field, and you're allowed 6 slots in the party, more than enough for both a pally and a bard.

[Arianrhod]

On normal difficulty settings, the game should aim for an AC of around 40-45 being "decent" (able to count on being missed some of the time). This is about where you can get with +5 armor, shield, and protection item and a barkskin potion on an average character. On Elite difficulty, on the other hand, it might as well go all out, demanding ACs of 60, 70 or above, especially for boss fights. This may be unattainable for anyone not specifically built for AC, but it gives those who enjoy building characters around the best gear they can get a chance to shine.

[Allice]

On normal difficulty settings, the game should aim for an AC of around 40-45 being "decent" (able to count on being missed some of the time). This is about where you can get with +5 armor, shield, and protection item and a barkskin potion on an average character. On Elite difficulty, on the other hand, it might as well go all out, demanding ACs of 60, 70 or above, especially for boss fights. This may be unattainable for anyone not specifically built for AC, but it gives those who enjoy building characters around the best gear they can get a chance to shine.

In the shroud with a 60 ac on normal i still get wacked quite often.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

In the shroud with a 60 ac on normal i still get wacked quite often.

You know I wear armor on my barbarian just cause I think robes would look funny... The best AC I could hit on him (around 40) was the same as being naked. That seems to pretty much be the trend ever since GH.

[Kreaper]

You're right about that. I used to be like you and wear armor through cap. But, like you said, a 40ac is the same as 0. I had to prove it to myself and did. Now, I wear armor until lev 11-12 and then switch to robes because of the quick change and robes are more useful. (Compared to the vast majority of armor that is almost completely useless.)

[Kreaper]

Oh yeah, you eventually get used to the way robes look. Actually, at that level all armor and robes look the same. They all look like granite.



Sorry, I sorta strayed from the main topic. I agree. It is pretty sad that ac has become useless. It sure would be nice if we could modernize a bit and start getting some Titanium full plate!

[Aspenor]

Really? Because in the new content, I find that my AC tank works wonders.

Mod 7 reinvented AC and defensive tanking.

Oh wait....you do have intimidate on your high AC characters...yes???

[Arianrhod]

You know I wear armor on my barbarian just cause I think robes would look funny... The best AC I could hit on him (around 40) was the same as being naked. That seems to pretty much be the trend ever since GH.

Well, I said "should" not "does"

I don't mind the Elite settings catering to powergamers, they need to have fun too. But on Normal, a reasonably attainable AC should still be of some value, even for, say, a healing cleric (not just the most intensively AC-focused tanks).

[Edit - oops, wrong quote. Meant to quote the post above this, about getting hit a lot with a 60 AC, sorry Allice & Lorien ]

[Aeneas]

Really? Because in the new content, I find that my AC tank works wonders.

Mod 7 reinvented AC and defensive tanking.

Oh wait....you do have intimidate on your high AC characters...yes???

I don't know if reinvented is the right word. Intimitanking was super effective before mod 7, it's just that nobody chose to notice until the new raid.

[Aspenor]

I don't know if reinvented is the right word. Intimitanking was super effective before mod 7, it's just that nobody chose to notice until the new raid.

True enough....

I guess some people can't fathom that OMG that guy with a weapon and a shield doing 0 damage is more effective than the barbarian doing 150 pts of damage per swing and TAKING 40 points of damage per second

[totmacher]

bug: AC is broken

Think of it like this, the range of ACs for monsters to hit in this MMO is anywhere from 30 (low end) - 70 (high end) at 16th level. The original d20 system was meant to cover a range up to about 25-45, which is safe for a d20, which means that the game fundamentally breaks down with AC inflation and to-hit inflation (because of the random aspect of die rolls and that they are supposed to cover that range).

Think of it as a number range that diverges as you go up in level. The difference between the minimum and maximum values with the random aspect (d20) get crazy and break down. So the devs did the safe thing and just made monster to-hit insane except for the tight upper bounds where AC toons sit.

Solution?

AC as damage mitigation. If AC counted towards minimizing a specific percentage of damage, AC 50 -> 25% damage taken off, then that would work better than the current implementation.

As is though, you can't really market D&D without that core system (d20s as a randomization mechanic). And they'll never change the AC system so you just gotta live with it.

[Aspenor]

Just ignore Totmacher, he is a n00b.

[DelScorcho]

True enough....

I guess some people can't fathom that OMG that guy with a weapon and a shield doing 0 damage is more effective than the barbarian doing 150 pts of damage per swing and TAKING 40 points of damage per second

Hopefully he isn't soloing. It may take some time to take down the mobs at 0 damage.

[totmacher]

MMO game systems are made by people!!

PEOPLE!!!!


DON'T TRY TO INGEST THE MMO GAME SYSTEMS!!!!!!!!!

[Aspenor]

MMO game systems are made by people!!

PEOPLE!!!!


DON'T TRY TO INGEST THE MMO GAME SYSTEMS!!!!!!!!!

Time for you to reroll Tot...

IRL

[Galapas]

bug: AC is broken

Think of it like this, the range of ACs for monsters to hit in this MMO is anywhere from 30 (low end) - 70 (high end) at 16th level. The original d20 system was meant to cover a range up to about 25-45, which is safe for a d20, which means that the game fundamentally breaks down with AC inflation and to-hit inflation (because of the random aspect of die rolls and that they are supposed to cover that range).

Think of it as a number range that diverges as you go up in level. The difference between the minimum and maximum values with the random aspect (d20) get crazy and break down. So the devs did the safe thing and just made monster to-hit insane except for the tight upper bounds where AC toons sit.

Solution?

AC as damage mitigation. If AC counted towards minimizing a specific percentage of damage, AC 50 -> 25% damage taken off, then that would work better than the current implementation.

As is though, you can't really market D&D without that core system (d20s as a randomization mechanic). And they'll never change the AC system so you just gotta live with it.

I think the much more obvious solution is to go to a larger die than d20. A d40-10 yields the same average, but has a larger spread (-10 to +30). You'd have to jigger with the crit numbers too, to keep percentages the same. At high end, an arcane with few resources would have an AC in the low 30s, while a max AC fighter would be as high as 70. An enemy with +40 AB would rarely hit the dedicated AC guy, and rarely miss the low AC guy. If the enemies encountered had a small spread in their ABs, then every character in the group would make a cost-benefit analysis of having a little more AC, instead of writing it off as worthless.

To avoid alienating new players who try the game because they like PnP, they could even institute this for higher level content only - say 10th level and over. This would require far fewer changes than going to a damage mitigation system.

[Angelus_dead]

I think the much more obvious solution is to go to a larger die than d20. A d40-10 yields the same average, but has a larger spread (-10 to +30).

That's one approach, but I prefer my "quasi-iterative attack" method, which is similar but more based in the D&D rules.

In that method, monsters with BAB of 10 or more add (d3-2)*5 to their attack rolls. That means they have an equal chance of +5, +0, or -5 on each attack. This simulates the idea that they are making iterative attacks which are at a successive -5 penalty, but randomly picks one of those attacks to apply. The monster's rate of attacks per minute has remained the same, so his peak DPS hasn't increased. And his average attack roll is still exactly the same, so an AC that he hit 50% of the time still gets hit 50% of the time.

But the spread of his attacks is increased, so the range of ACs which are meaningful has increased. It takes a little more AC to make him 95% miss, and characters can have a little less AC before they get 95% hit.

[Thrudh]

In the shroud with a 60 ac on normal i still get wacked quite often.

Sure, the Pit Fiend.... maybe the lieutenants.... All those orthans and devils and trogs aren't touching you tho... And that IS useful... (Especially if you have intimidate)

[Yaga_Nub]

Time for you to reroll Tot...

IRL

/signed.