Why do Devs generally hotfix issues that help us, and rarely ones that hurt us?

[Turial]

Both are broken, but one thing that is broken has a much larger footprint, fix that one first. Not sure, but if one were to use the Item that makes all attacks Ghost touch, could you punch and kick ghosts before? Did anyone ever try before monks?

Yep, and broke a wand in the progress.

[Zaodon]

We'd all love to see every bug fixed the moment it's reported, and others in this thread have pointed out various reasons why that simply can't happen in reality. While I agree with all the reasons that it's frustrating to see so-called "beneficial" bugs fixed while "detrimental" bugs stay in the game, I think from a long-term whole-game perspective the priorities are correct. For any given bug that gives some players (i.e. the ones that know about it) an advantage, the longer it stays in the game the more it inflates the power of those players and increases the range between them and the rest. This has multiple negative effects:

-it forces content to be inflated (mob hp, saves, etc) in order to present a semblance of challenge to top players
-players taking advantage of such situations gain in ways they wouldn't otherwise (more advancement at lower risk and cost, more chances at bound loot, completions that for others would be failures, etc)
-players not able to take advantage, not willing to, or not aware of such situations (or discovering them much later) end up incrementally, and sometimes permanently, less-powerful than those who can and do, with each such situation.

The list could go on, but you get the idea. Player-advantage bugs widen the gap between power-gamer and the rest of the population, negatively affect game balance in the long term, and threaten the experience of the majority. Player-disadvantage bugs are a pain for everyone, but are more likely to affect the population equally. Player-advantage bugs are also more likely to spawn "exploit" arguments and further divide us all. If every Skiver or Deathnip was legitimate, and every shroud completion so far had included a challenging fight against a responsive boss mob, we'd all be better players and likely spend more time playing and less time arguing.

Well, thats what its all about in MMORPGs, isn't it? Time.

Initial game purchase is not how Turbine makes money, its subscription to the service. Anything they can do to make the game take longer (or to eliminate things that shorten the game experience) get priority over everything else, even customer satisfaction issues.

That, IMHO, is what I am complaining about.

[Vua]

Exactly. Stormcleave "mobs sometimes just don't spawn" bug was SO easy to reproduce (literally, just run it 3 or 4 times, voila! Bug reproduced.) Yet they never prioritized it as an important bug because:
a) it hurt the players, rather than give them an exploit/advantage
b) the players had an easy "workaround" - just restart the quest (or contact a GM who can spawn the missing mobs).

Good example.

Actually Stormcleave was fixed like 8 times. Well they thought they fixed it. None of their fixes ever worked though. I can't remember which Dev posted about all their failed attempts to fix it.

[Gunga]

Issues that help us
Recalling method of VoD: hotfixed
Vicious not hurting us: hotfixed
Casting in armor with 0% failure: hotfixed

Issues that harm us:
Handwraps not working right: not hotfixed.
New Armor/Shield alchemy bonuses: not hotfixed
Some ghosty mobs becoming immune to firewall: not hotfixed


Note the use of the words ""generally" and "rarely" in the title. I didn't say never. They gave monks and rogues some love in this hotfix, and fixed blade barrier. So, I didn't say never. But generally? Oh yeah, I'm spot on.

Why, Devs? Why do you have this philosophy? Why take the position that players getting a temporary advantage is a critical issue, but players getting hosed is "Eh, whatever, we'll get to it eventually." Don't you see that as a bad philosophy for customer satisfaction? Seriously, its a video game, who cares if we get a small advantage for a few weeks. Yet, you're fine with us getting hosed for months and months at a time. Makes no sense to me,

I see it as a perception issue. [edi cubi nom nom nomius]

[Zenako]

Yep, and broke a wand in the progress.

You know, my cleric has found that dual wielding Sup Pot VI mace in one hand and Heal Scrolls in the other, are a very slow way to kill stoned mobs....oops...(while trying to help speed things up in a run like the Tor....)

[petegunn]

Or the glass is just the wrong size.

The glass is never the wrong size as long as its full of a tasty alcoholic beverage sir !

[Missing_Minds]

So, just because I don't design automobiles I should be happy with a sub standard one? I should just be happy and take whatever they feel like freaking giving me? Does that make sense to you?

Yes, because you aren't taking the time to do it perfectly yourself to fit only yourself. How happy a person is with their chosen vehicle will vary to person to person.

[Missing_Minds]

Only 3 of those got fixed. And the Firewall bug is the bug where ghostly creatures become immune to your firewall after getting hit once. Just as bad as the Blade Barrier bug (which got fixed). And thanks for mentioning the "AoE spell causes mobs to not spawn" bug, I would have fixed that one, also.

Oh, as a side note: To those of you who say "Maybe they couldn't fix those bugs because they don't know how to fix them?" That's untrue. Every developer at Turbine knows their code well enough to know how to debug it, find the bug, and fix it. Sometimes a fix is straightforward (its literally just a bug and you fix it), and other times its working as coded, but a change needs to be made to make it work a different way, and management has to get involved to make a decision on what the new behavior should be, which is not so straightforward. In EITHER case, if there is enough priority given to the bug, it can be isolated and fixed within a day or two, sans any major refactoring of the code (which would make it take longer but still not more than a week or so).

Emm.. I've not had that particular bug happen to me yet. Then again I'm not super flagrant with walls of fire either. I'll have to keep an eye open for that more often.

As for your second part, that sounds like a managerial answer to me. Just because one person wrote code, doesn't mean he understand how everything else will interact with it. Also it can be case of inherited code that was not theirs but is now. They are only now responsible for it, but may not understand how it works completely. To say that a coder can fix an issue in two days, and I say this as a coder, I find extremely arrogant and Dilbert esq. That is my personal opinion.
Also I noticed in your answer you completely didn't mention anything about the time required to go through a code review, have it pass testing by QA, and then the making and testing of said patch.

[Gunga]

Or the glass is just the wrong size.

**** you and your sensibilities.

[Gunga]

I see it as a perception issue. [edi cubi nom nom nomius]

Wow. The cube has a sense of humorius.

[Zaodon]

Emm.. I've not had that particular bug happen to me yet. Then again I'm not super flagrant with walls of fire either. I'll have to keep an eye open for that more often.

As for your second part, that sounds like a managerial answer to me. Just because one person wrote code, doesn't mean he understand how everything else will interact with it. Also it can be case of inherited code that was not theirs but is now. They are only now responsible for it, but may not understand how it works completely. To say that a coder can fix an issue in two days, and I say this as a coder, I find extremely arrogant and Dilbert esq. That is my personal opinion.
Also I noticed in your answer you completely didn't mention anything about the time required to go through a code review, have it pass testing by QA, and then the making and testing of said patch.

True, in the case of Turbine and DDO, fixing the bug in the code, and releasing that fix to production are two different animals. I wasn't complaining about the speed of bug-fix patches. I was only complaining about the prioritization of issues.

[Missing_Minds]

Because, while you never stated we shouldn't state our opinion, as I said, the TONE of your post seemed to imply that because one isn't a programmer or a manager of programmers, that their opinion is less valid than the opinion of the programmer or manager of programmers.

The point of my question is that I wanted to see just how many people actually had the perspective of a massive coding experience compared to people who were just whining about stuff not working, expecting it to be perfect all because they pay pennies a day. Which group is being vocal, the ones that have a clue or the ones that don't. I wanted to know so I asked. If I wanted a person or other persons to stop posting I would have told them point blank.

I do my best to post exactly what I mean without double talk. Something that is rare on forums, so when I ask a question, I'm asking a question. I've got to be reminded that people like to read behind, between, and in front of the lines just because they want to see something that isn't there.

Also, I always consider a person's opinion valid and true (but not fact.). Some times I will discount a person's opinion based on their perspective. (aka we don't agree on what should be.) Sometimes I don't understand where they are coming from so I want to know and I ask. The end result is that while you can complain to your heart's content, it doesn't help to solve the over all issue. You can claim squeeky wheel, but when the squeek can't be found how are you going to fix it?

[Missing_Minds]

True, in the case of Turbine and DDO, fixing the bug in the code, and releasing that fix to production are two different animals. I wasn't complaining about the speed of bug-fix patches. I was only complaining about the prioritization of issues.

I half wonder if it was a case of, "we are going to release a first fix patch on this day. get everything ready that you can." Afterall, sometimes the bug reports we send in can give enough hints that some bugs can be found and fixed fast while others require a lot more in depth checking.

I mean range attack fixes actually took Codog working from home to properly see what players were seeing because they didn't have built in latency, lag, etc. into the dev server for checks.

And with this, I'm done here for the week and heading on home. So some of you will be happy I won't be posting again. Other wise feel free to PM me.

[Muirtach]

Maybe they fix the exploits first because the players take the attitude of, "Exploit early and often before it gets fixed?"

Ding Ding Ding!

If people were to continue playing without taking advantage of bugs (yeah I live in a dream world, so what) then the devs could focus on the other issues completely and fix the exploitable ones on the downtime from the rest.

[Zaodon]

Ding Ding Ding!

If people were to continue playing without taking advantage of bugs (yeah I live in a dream world, so what) then the devs could focus on the other issues completely and fix the exploitable ones on the downtime from the rest.

Q: Does Turbine lose money if players get to exploit a bug for a longer time?
A: Of course not.

Q: Does Turbine lose money if players are not happy with their service and cancel?
A: Of course.

Remember, only n00bs and carebears remotely care of other players exploit and get "phat loots". Getting "phat loots" from an exploit doesn't affect DDO Sales one single iota. And it doesn't affect the game one single iota. No matter what you get using the exploit, you can get without the exploit, except it will take (wait for it......) ...... longer.

Anything going "ding ding ding" in your head now?

[Aranticus]

Q: Does Turbine lose money if players get to exploit a bug for a longer time?
A: Of course not. YES, people assume it to be the norm. when the fixes come in place and they cant complete stuff easily, they quit the game. subscriptions get cancelled, money is lost. think when they fixed evasion, think when they made the dq mobs red named, think the blue flag raid runs.

Q: Does Turbine lose money if players are not happy with their service and cancel?
A: Of course. i totally agree but happiness is relative. i for one is happy exploits get fixed, others are happy exploits remain

Remember, only n00bs and carebears remotely care of other players exploit and get "phat loots". Getting "phat loots" from an exploit doesn't affect DDO Sales one single iota. it does. see my response above And it doesn't affect the game one single iota. it does, see my response above No matter what you get using the exploit, you can get without the exploit, except it will take (wait for it......) ...... longer. some people dun like waiting

Anything going "ding ding ding" in your head now?

the only thing dong-ing is your own head. you could be a manager in a software development team in a company the size of turbine but you know NUTS about the gamer psyche. there are the casual gamer, powergamer and of coz those that resort to all cheats to win. each category fluxes.

a casual gamer who suddenly finds himself with lots of time can become a powergamer. a powergamer who is already top of the foodchain can become disinterested in running the quest for the 290743897th time. when that happens instead of challenging themselves, they now get kicks by challenging the system, looking for loop holes, exploits, bugs etc. of coz a casual gamer can also become an exploiter when they decide that they dun have the time and now want everything in an instant.

if you are really into gaming, seach the web, search the gaming shops. highest hits for gaming sites are usually for the cheat codes! best sales in shops are usually walkthroughs and magazines which provide gamers gaming tips. what turbine is doing is to prevent the ddo community here from having a "exploit" mentality. the moment an exploit, it means a breakdown in the balance of the gamers. (people doing blue flag in raids getting all the loot in 1 day.....)

[ahpook]

Q: Does Turbine lose money if players get to exploit a bug for a longer time?
A: Of course not.

Disagree. Easy buttons make people bored sooner and cancel their subs sooner.

Q: Does Turbine lose money if players are not happy with their service and cancel?
A: Of course.

Remember, only n00bs and carebears remotely care of other players exploit and get "phat loots". Getting "phat loots" from an exploit doesn't affect DDO Sales one single iota. And it doesn't affect the game one single iota. No matter what you get using the exploit, you can get without the exploit, except it will take (wait for it......) ...... longer.

Your insulting of others doesn't make your point stronger. Your final line here even explained it yet you missed it. it takes .... longer. Turbine gets paid more the longer you play.

[GlassCannon]

Your insulting of others doesn't make your point stronger. Your final line here even explained it yet you missed it. it takes .... longer. Turbine gets paid more the longer you play.

Not if the game is someone else's.


Yes, I get fed up with DDO regularly now, and my caster is parked for a bit. These screwups of late are pretty major. I find that playing other games helps.

[sephiroth1084]

All the arguing about whether the developers at Turbine have the time, knowledge or ability to fix bugs, or on the reasoning behind their predilection for fixing player-beneficial issues with greater speed than issues that negatively affect the player base is moot.

As far as I am concerned, the big issue is that I have not seen anyone from Turbine acknowledging or commenting on any of these assertions or practices. I have not read any explanation for why X bug was or was not fixed. Eladrin isn't here telling us that they are working on fixing bugs that are over a year old, or that the vicious handwraps bug was so easy to code that they figured they would put it in.

My GREATEST issue with the developers at turbine right now isn't that we (the paying customers) seem to be getting the short end of the stick, but that they can't be bothered to take the time for some transparency. Honestly, simply "fixing" things, and dribbling some vague flavor-text in with some of the release notes does not a happy community make. I want to know WHY THE **** X bug that was helping my monk not suck was fixed, but half the issues plaguing him were left alone, why brand new content doesn't work (alchemical bonus, half the monk abilities), why changes to the Hound and VoD were thought important enough to trump other issues. Heck, why was the TITAN raid altered so much? When there is NEW material coming out, laden with bugs, why is the development team spending their time editing content from a year ago? And in a quest that relatively few people run due to the already cumbersome mechanics involved?

I want to know what the people at Turbine are actually working on--all of our new content for the past few Mods has taken the form of relatively few quests with some mechanic encouraging or forcing the community to replay the quest(s) over and over and over and over and over and over and over and...

So, were I to apply much of this to any other profession, I'd assume to employees were cutting corners wherever they may, and taking long lunches. I understand that there is a lot to read on these forums, and that commenting on every thread would be incredibly tedious, but many of these issues are long-standing, so enduring, that they seem almost intentional. Yet, we do not know.

Oh, and the icing on the proverbial ****-cake we're being fed, instead of leaning toward more disclosure, to keep the player base informed, Turbine REMOVES its thread dedicated to these sorts of things. Perhaps Turbine is trying their hand at their own version of "Springtime for Hitler?"

[jmelanie7]

I see your list more like this....... its the whole 1/2 empty, 1/2 full arguement

You, know, i wasn't giving my opinion on anything in my post, I just pointed as things that could be considered, by some people, by bugs HELPING us and bugs AGAINST us, that's all. My opinion is something different, going in the same direction as you, for some points. And again, this is what my poor memory let me recalls, i may be wrong, dont get me wrong, but from what i can recall, there is more things that actually is for us.