Throw 28 point builds a freakin bone...

[GrayOldDruid]

"4 extra build points are meaningless! But we don't want you to have it because you're new!"

If it is meaningless, why all the anger?

Yeah, my 16th Level 28pt build Ranger/Rogue has Dex and Wisdom as his main stats. Wouldn't do much to either one of those, if anything. I could raise my Con or Cha a point or two and that would help by a point. He is my character that got to the 1750 favor, but he got nothing but a tome for it. My Drow and 32pt builds get the same tome. So the character who did all the work, doesn't get the full benefit of it. I had a problem with it when I got the favor. It was like encouraging me to start all over with the same build, which I now have my original build plus five more (just started one last night and got him to lvl 2 this morning - and Dwarves walk funny... ). I put a lot of work, effort and grinding in to get my original where he is and get him the equipment he has... not going to re-roll him or shelve him. I'm sorry if other people chose to do away with all their equipment and reroll as soon as they hit the favor. (which is kinda dumb... at the very least mail all of your non-bound equipment to another character and then mail it back to the re-roll. I did that with my cleric when he got to lvl 8 or 9, rerolled.)

Nobody is asking for anything "Free."

The request is : "I would like all 28pt builds who unlocked the 32 point builds to get the benefit - 4 more build points - that they (28pt builds) worked for."
Not "All new builds from now on should be 32 point builds for everyone regardless of favor."

If it is indeed as meaningless as some are suggesting, then what would be the harm in it?? "I wouldn't benefit cause I deleted all my 28pt builds"??

I don't think anyone is crying "we must have this!!" - more "Please, this would be really nice."

[DoctorWhofan]

"4 extra build points are meaningless! But we don't want you to have it because you're new!"

If it is meaningless, why all the anger?

Yeah, my 16th Level 28pt build Ranger/Rogue has Dex and Wisdom as his main stats. Wouldn't do much to either one of those, if anything. I could raise my Con or Cha a point or two and that would help by a point. He is my character that got to the 1750 favor, but he got nothing but a tome for it. My Drow and 32pt builds get the same tome. So the character who did all the work, doesn't get the full benefit of it. I had a problem with it when I got the favor. It was like encouraging me to start all over with the same build, which I now have my original build plus five more (just started one last night and got him to lvl 2 this morning - and Dwarves walk funny... ). I put a lot of work, effort and grinding in to get my original where he is and get him the equipment he has... not going to re-roll him or shelve him. I'm sorry if other people chose to do away with all their equipment and reroll as soon as they hit the favor. (which is kinda dumb... at the very least mail all of your non-bound equipment to another character and then mail it back to the re-roll. I did that with my cleric when he got to lvl 8 or 9, rerolled.)

Nobody is asking for anything "Free."

The request is : "I would like all 28pt builds who unlocked the 32 point builds to get the benefit - 4 more build points - that they (28pt builds) worked for."
Not "All new builds from now on should be 32 point builds for everyone regardless of favor."

If it is indeed as meaningless as some are suggesting, then what would be the harm in it?? "I wouldn't benefit cause I deleted all my 28pt builds"??

I don't think anyone is crying "we must have this!!" - more "Please, this would be really nice."

Ok, still the benefit isn't there. To move a stat one point when you are past level 12+ is goingto take more than 4 points. Unless you messed up, or a class (or multi-class) that morethan three stats are important. Otherwise, It's moot. Why waste the dev's time to give a prize that is meaningless?

[Dexxaan]

Why waste the dev's time to give a prize that is meaningless?

ROFL

I have to hand it to you Doc. Your eloquence is appreciated.

[Gornin]

The 4 points would not be given to a 28 point character at their current level when they achieve 1750 favor, but what I think the OP and others ( including myself ) would like is the 28 point character be taken to the Character Creation screen and be allowed to allocate the extra 4 points where they would do the most benefit, since this is where the new 32 point builds get it, not later.

I do not believe this to be an unreasonable request. If we don't get it, c'est la vie, but if Turbine were to implement this I would be very happy. It would not affect those who deleted their originals, but it might make them upset. I believe those that deleted those characters are probably those who have much more time to play. The only reason I have not deleted my 2 28 pointers is that I did not know that we could get 32 pointers until they were capped and had a few bound items that took me most of a year to acquire. Since I only have about 2 hours a day to play, it usually takes me almost 3 months to to cap out a character now, not the week that I see written on the boards.

I think that Turbine should have done this for the 28 pointers who achieved the 1750 mark from the beginning any way. It is not fair to the player to force him to reroll a character that he has done so much with.

And if the 4 points don't matter, why do most people do all the work that goes into earning it? Seems to me it matters enough to put some effort into it, thus that makes it a valuable reward, and many would like that reward to be applicable to the character(s) that earn it.

[DoctorWhofan]

The 4 points would not be given to a 28 point character at their current level when they achieve 1750 favor, but what I think the OP and others ( including myself ) would like is the 28 point character be taken to the Character Creation screen and be allowed to allocate the extra 4 points where they would do the most benefit, since this is where the new 32 point builds get it, not later.

I do not believe this to be an unreasonable request. If we don't get it, c'est la vie, but if Turbine were to implement this I would be very happy. It would not affect those who deleted their originals, but it might make them upset. I believe those that deleted those characters are probably those who have much more time to play. The only reason I have not deleted my 2 28 pointers is that I did not know that we could get 32 pointers until they were capped and had a few bound items that took me most of a year to acquire. Since I only have about 2 hours a day to play, it usually takes me almost 3 months to to cap out a character now, not the week that I see written on the boards.

I think that Turbine should have done this for the 28 pointers who achieved the 1750 mark from the beginning any way. It is not fair to the player to force him to reroll a character that he has done so much with.

And if the 4 points don't matter, why do most people do all the work that goes into earning it? Seems to me it matters enough to put some effort into it, thus that makes it a valuable reward, and many would like that reward to be applicable to the character(s) that earn it.

sigh. I know what was meant, but to move a stat point at the level you are is nigh near impossible. It takes 4 stat points to move from 17 to 18. In you primary stat, you are already pass that. In your secondary stat, you are already pass that. Therefore, 4 points won't help you, or not that much.

And here's the bone for you. How about Drow? My toon that got me the 1750 favour the first time was a drow. So, I don't get it, right? Is that fair? I earned those 4 points, I should get it, right? How about the 2 other 28 pt builds who came after that Drow? They earned 1750 favour, do they get the 4 points?

Too much work for the devs for 4 stat points.

[ahpook]

Ok, still the benefit isn't there. To move a stat one point when you are past level 12+ is goingto take more than 4 points. Unless you messed up, or a class (or multi-class) that morethan three stats are important. Otherwise, It's moot. Why waste the dev's time to give a prize that is meaningless?

Please quit with this straw man. You don't have to put the points on your primary stat. Adding 4 points to another stat still can have great value.

[HumanJHawkins]

<CUT>I think to many vets and other players who just want to enjoy the freakin game that threads like this scream If I dont have the maxium of everything and god forbid only used 28 points to get my build done, im not as good as the guy who is ubber enough to 32 point build and tweak out with extra tomes.

Can people stop trying to run other people's lives? I guarantee you that there are a lot of people who couldn't care less. And there are others who care deeply. If this is not important to you, then why are you here? Do you obsess over every person's feelings where they don't agree with yours?

The OP was not asking for anything that would in ANY way unbalance the game, because there are already plenty of players that have what he was asking for. He was only saying that for him, letting him apply the bonus he earned to his original main would be more fun. And it would help him feel like his character (that he would prefer to play) was a good heroic build.

No one has stated any reasons why this would be bad. People have only complained that either it is not needed (which means you are trying to build his character for him... No one has the right to say what his character needs except him.) Or they have come up with arguments like "It sucks and it is work to rebuild but since I had to do it, you either pay your money and grind, or get out of the game."

I swear, some of you are like a slave that is freed after 40 years of forced labor, who argues that other slaves should not be set free until they have finished their 40 years. What a bunch of saints we have here.

Niether of those arguments has any merit. It is either an attempt to run someone else's life, or an attempt to hold back progress out of spite.

[Kalari]

Can people stop trying to run other people's lives? I guarantee you that there are a lot of people who couldn't care less. And there are others who care deeply. If this is not important to you, then why are you here? Do you obsess over every person's feelings where they don't agree with yours?

The OP was not asking for anything that would in ANY way unbalance the game, because there are already plenty of players that have what he was asking for. He was only saying that for him, letting him apply the bonus he earned to his original main would be more fun. And it would help him feel like his character (that he would prefer to play) was a good heroic build.

No one has stated any reasons why this would be bad. People have only complained that either it is not needed (which means you are trying to build his character for him... No one has the right to say what his character needs except him.) Or they have come up with arguments like "It sucks and it is work to rebuild but since I had to do it, you either pay your money and grind, or get out of the game."

I swear, some of you are like a slave that is freed after 40 years of forced labor, who argues that other slaves should not be set free until they have finished their 40 years. What a bunch of saints we have here.

Niether of those arguments has any merit. It is either an attempt to run someone else's life, or an attempt to hold back progress out of spite.

Okay took the time to read your words so im going to be nice enough to respond in a mature way to your assessment of my words. A. I never said it wasnt important to me if the topic wasnt important I wouldnt have vocalised my feelings about it in this thread. Obviously there are plenty of threads in these forums where I dont put input but I obviously felt I wanted to say my piece on this subject, and last I checked the OP was not asking for everyone to agree with him. But if he felt that way and had put that I probably would have left my feelings on the topic out since I dont want to join a discussion where everyone agrees and gets along.

B. No where did I ever state my "opinion" should be law, would it be nice? sure why not but I just felt the need to say why I felt it didnt matter that 28 point builds that also had 1750 didnt need the 4 points. If people agree or disagree fine I understand we are all humans were not prone to think a like. But unlike you I stopped after I realized I said my piece and only responded back to Dawn who responded to some of my posts. I never said "Devs dont do it, never said it was a waste of time" I said I felt that people who think 28 point builds need the extra points seem to say they arent good enough. So even if that came across as wrong to you, I stand by my personal feelings.

The slave analogy..lets just say while an intellectual way to look at things really bothered me gonna leave it at that. But I dont see where in any of my posts I told any players that they have to play a certain way. If you read my words like that fine but that was not the point I was trying to convey. I just saw this thread as a growing issue ive seen with players who think better stats equal better player. And while you see my words as telling players how to play Im seeing your words as telling forum posters how to post so I guess we both need to lighten up a bit then eh?

[ahpook]

No one has stated any reasons why this would be bad. People have only complained that either it is not needed (which means you are trying to build his character for him... No one has the right to say what his character needs except him.) Or they have come up with arguments like "It sucks and it is work to rebuild but since I had to do it, you either pay your money and grind, or get out of the game."

Actually, I explained why this would be bad in a previous post. It is bad because the goal of the reward is to encourage players to roll up a new character and take the time to level them thus keeping them in the game longer. Unless the OP can show that giving the 32 pt build to the toon that got the favor can give the same result as effectively, it will be a difficult sell to Turbine.

BTW, I agree with the OP and think that the favor should have always been to increase the stats of the character getting favor. But we had this argument a long time ago and lost for the simple reason that giving it to the player who got favor does not encourage replay to the same extent.

[redoubt]

Wasn't the problem related to the game not tracking the ability increases? Something to do with not knowing what your original stats were and thus becoming very difficult to allow you to spend the 4 points as if you were creating the character new.

On the possibly easier coding method you get for "creation" points at your current level and stats. In that scenario you could move a dump stat from 8 to 12 and it would be the same cost as at first character creation. However, if you have used a tome or ability raise on a stat, the cost to improve it would be based on its new value rather than its value at creation. This would mean that your 4 points MIGHT be worth less than if they were used to build your character fresh.

As far as doing this or not, I'm not sure. I've never been a fan of the "punish those after us, cuz we went through it" mentality. But the 1750 favor and the reward of 32 point builds was a fun and cool thing for me to achieve in game. I think it is easier to get now, but its still high enough that you have to work at it. So I guess that means I'm don't think we should automatically give 32pt builds to new accounts.

As for boosting the 28 points builds which achieve the favor requirement.. /shrug. I guess I don't mind it. Though, and I hate to say it, but, I think I'd rather they fix the stuff that's broken. Sorry.

[Arlith]

Okay, not talking about Shroud ingredients here...

It would make a whole lot of people very happy if we could upgrade our 'old' characters to 32 point builds. It would not unbalance the game because there are already several 32 point builds running around. I know several people who do not play their 28 point builds any more (and a lot of them were clerics).

My remaining 28 pt build holds his own against 32 pt builds very well, thank you. The differences between 28 and 32 pt builds is really just not that significant.

/not signed.

[HumanJHawkins]

<cut>so im going to be nice enough to respond in a mature way to your assessment of my words.

FYI, I quoted you because you were the last person to make the "It's not important" argument. But I was responding to several posts from several people. I didn't make that very clear, and I rushed it. My bad.

I still think the basic premise of your post is off base. You were basically stating your dislike for the fact that people want 32 point builds. That's cool, and you are of course free to express your opinion. But in the context of this thread, you have to realize that stating that opinion can only be taken as a "no vote". And when you vote "no" to giving someone something they have asked for, but the only reason given is "I don't think you need it", then you are trying to limit someone else's options based on your own feelings.

If an option like this isn't harming you, and someone else wants it, then your opinions should have no bearing on it. The only reason not to let someone (an adult anyway) have something they want, is if it hurts someone else. And except for the guy making the "it keeps you in the game" argument, there is a distinct lack of anyone here saying how it would hurt anyone.

[GlassCannon]

Please quit with this straw man. You don't have to put the points on your primary stat. Adding 4 points to another stat still can have great value.

Again, my Sorc, +4 Base INT. UMD score via Skill points.

My Tempest Ranger would get +4 WIS for those same points(Base WIS 8).

[Shagn]

Sorry I was unable to reply to posts, was on vacation.

Thanks to all who replied. I tried to start the thread with an Austin Powers slant to keep the thread light-hearted, but I forget some hardcore players don't get out much.

It seems the general consensus is allowing 28 point builds to 'upgrade' to 32 point would not break the game. The only whiners about my request seem to be the ones who have hundreds of hours available to play the game and feel like they are being jipped because they already re-rolled all their characters (power gamers) and want to feel above everybody else (apologies for the long sentence). Most seem to be in favor of the idea though.

The reason I created this thread is because of the dramatic change in the game since the 28 point characters were built. I personally only have a bard I play that is still a 28 point build. Is my character gimp as the whiners in this thread say it is? No, I still play him through all the elite content and do just fine. Would it make the playing field a little more balanced? Yes, because I could give him a few more points of constitution or charisma. An extra point in charisma would give me a few more spell points and raise my spell DC a notch higher (not higher than a 32 point could anyway). We all know how hard the high-level content hits us. Back when lvl10 was the cap, constitution was not a huge concern, but now it is. I just don't have the time to invest in pointlessly re-rolling a character that I have faithfully been playing (and paying for) since the beginning of DDO. This runs down similar lines as back when sorcerers and bards had to re-roll just to change their spell selection (!!). Times have changed now because we have much more bound equipment... Re-rolling would kill many many hours of raid effort.

I'm not asking for a freebie as some of the whiners were trying to say I am. Make those who still play their 28 point builds (like I suggested in my OP) work for it! We obviously already unlocked the 32 point builds, why not allow us to upgrade the character who burned through the effort? Of course the points should be added to the character like at the character creation screen because the inherent bonus from tomes and the level up bumps would skew the extra 4 points. Characters who didn't min/max would get a little help. A few extra points in con may have saved my butt a time or two!

My idea is on the next major total favor reward to add in this little extra 4 points for 28 point builds. The 32-pointers will still get the reward (like a +3 tome or whatever), but it would allow the 28 point builds to finally balance out with 32-pointers...

Apparently enough people out there believe enough that those extra 4 points makes a big enough difference to re-roll a character...

I would prefer allowing us to reshuffle stat points altogether (like how we now get to shuffle feats around, and enhancements), but I figure requesting these four points is small enough one of the developers may consider it. I don't think it would take much effort... If it means sacrificing new content then I say forget the points.

Anyhow, thanks for reading my thread and thanks again to all who constructively contributed to the discussion.

[Razvan]

It's simple why this shouldn't happen: Because a lot of people have gone through the pains of getting to 32 point builds and leveling their new chars...If some have joined the game later, or don't have enough time to get to 32 points then those who have played this game from the start shouldn't be punished.

You're beating a dead horse...let it go! That's the way the system was implemented and that's the way it should stay!

[thatguy]

It's simple why this shouldn't happen: Because a lot of people have gone through the pains of getting to 32 point builds and leveling their new chars...If some have joined the game later, or don't have enough time to get to 32 points then those who have played this game from the start shouldn't be punished.

You're beating a dead horse...let it go! That's the way the system was implemented and that's the way it should stay!

Very well said and I agree.

[Shagn]

It's simple why this shouldn't happen: Because a lot of people have gone through the pains of getting to 32 point builds and leveling their new chars...If some have joined the game later, or don't have enough time to get to 32 points then those who have played this game from the start shouldn't be punished.

You're beating a dead horse...let it go! That's the way the system was implemented and that's the way it should stay!

I'm not understanding your logic. So you think people who decide to keep their 28 point builds should be 'punished' for deciding to not re-roll them as a 32 point build? Unlocking the 32 point build (especially back when it first came out) was already 'painful' enough. I dunno about you, but if I was new to the game, I would despise re-rolling a character I spent months on just to get 4 extra points. (is a game supposed to be painful??)

Being able to swap feats and spells (for sorcs/bards) wasn't implemented like that either, but it was changed. Why can't this?

I reply once to my own thread and I'm 'beating a dead horse'? lol (and I did search for similar with no results before creating this thread)

It was a minor quibble, and I hear lots of others in-game commenting on how they wish their build could be upgraded to 32 point builds without destroying 2 years of playing. I figured I might mention their and my thoughts in the forums. Never thought I would get such hostility for something so minor as this, and something that would not even affect people who grinded out re-rolls on 32 point builds anyway. What is there to fuss about? People who already re-rolled all their characters to 32 point builds have no weight in this thread to me.

I can't figure out why people seem to think this is giving somebody else and unfair advantage. I still have yet to hear good reason why this should not be considered. All I hear is whining from people who already re-rolled their 28 point builds as 32 pointers...

[Laith]

i suspect nothing is ever going to happen to address easing the 28pt to 32pt transition.

why do i think nothing will change?
because what we have here is a situation not unlike what we have with VoN and DQ flagging, and they've already given their reason for not changing that:

(paraphrased)
The possible complications associated with changing the existing system is unacceptibly high given the number of possible states characters might find themselves in (total favor rewards ARE recorded in the form of one-time only quests).



of course, i didn't really like that excuse when applied to VoN/DQ and don't like it here: but if they're gonna use it in that situation, it's perfectly viable in this one.
keep asking for the change though... i'm just not optimistic enough to think it'll happen.

[Dexxaan]

I see many references to whiners in your latest couple of threads....remarkable since if you truly read your own more than once...you'll find countless examples of what you are complaining about.

Bottom line is clear, luckily no change will take place and plenty of common sense has been tossed around regarding this matter. Lowering the bar for the sake of equality is a recipe for mediocrity, and the bar is low enough as it is.

Want to lose a large loyal player base? Keep lowering the bar.

[Shagn]

I see many references to whiners in your latest couple of threads....remarkable since if you truly read your own more than once...you'll find countless examples of what you are complaining about.

I only have one thread, where are you seeing I made more than one thread??
Countless? I think not. Me whining about whiners? Yes, touche.
And to keep you from derailing the thread...

Bottom line is clear, luckily no change will take place and plenty of common sense has been tossed around regarding this matter. Lowering the bar for the sake of equality is a recipe for mediocrity, and the bar is low enough as it is.

Want to lose a large loyal player base? Keep lowering the bar.

There is no 'bottom line'. Assuming no change will [ever] take place may be an error on your part and is just trying to start an argument.

'Lowering the bar'? I have no idea what you are talking about. How does an upgraded 28 point build to 32 versus rerolling as a 32 point 'lower the bar'?? Hmm.

'Lose large loyal player base'? Because of allowing 28 point builds to earn the extra 4 points? lol, I think not. In fact it had quite the opposite effect. I left the game for a year because I did not want to reroll my main (28 point build), among a few other reasons such as the big enhancement changes. That is a direct loss in revenue for Turbine - plus I own two accounts ($15x2@12mos=$360!). Maybe I was the only person, but they still lost money... I don't know about you, but I do not play this game to grind out an identical character. Grinding for a duplicate character is not fun for me, which means I cancel my subscriptions again. The more people leave, the less income, which means DDO gets shut down.

I stated my wish, and there is nothing more for me to add. This is the first request I have ever made. It will not negatively impact anybody, nor will it give anybody an unfair advantage or unbalance the game. If anything, bringing 32 point builds into the game unbalanced it. Perhaps they should strip 4 points off the 32 point builds instead? Or the way this game is going just make them all 64 point builds.

Turbine wanted us to play and earn access to 32 point builds. Let us play more to earn our original characters the extra 4 points instead of rerolling them...

That is all. Have a good day.