Heightened Charm Person vs. Suggestion

[ktb]

I'm trying to figure out how heighten works in comparison to similiar spells.

For example, is there a difference between a heightened charm person and suggestion? Same question for heightened command undead vs. control undead.

If not, is casting the heightened version after taking the heighten enhancement tree just a cheaper way to cast high level spells?

[Angelus_dead]

For example, is there a difference between a heightened charm person and suggestion?

Suggestion will work on things that aren't persons. Also Suggestion works for exactly 60 seconds, so you can check your watch to predict when the spell will end.

[MrCow]

Also Suggestion works for exactly 6 seconds per caster level

Fixed to prevent misinformation.

[Yaga_Nub]

Fixed to prevent misinformation.

You forgot to mention it can be extended as well.

[sirgog]

You forgot to mention it can be extended as well.

I believe Charm Person can be extended too (just doubles the time between saves).

I'd definitely suggest Suggestion over heightened Charm Person all the time, due to the predictable duration. My Sorc still has Charm Person - I just use it unheightened on low-Will save humanoids as a way to conserve SP in some quests (Ritual Sacrifice, all difficulty levels, springs to mind - those Gnolls are easy to land it on, except for the casters - plus it's nice to know that the Charm spells won't last long due to not being heightened.)

[transtemporal]

I'm trying to figure out how heighten works in comparison to similiar spells.

For example, is there a difference between a heightened charm person and suggestion? Same question for heightened command undead vs. control undead.

If not, is casting the heightened version after taking the heighten enhancement tree just a cheaper way to cast high level spells?

Heighten just increases the save DC to your highest castable spell level, so if have heighten turned on and you're able to cast 5th level spells, the DC of Charm person (1st level) is increased by 4 and Suggestion (3rd level) is increased by 2.

For suggestion it works on (almost) anything, they make a will save once and they automatically come out of it 6 seconds/caster level. For charm person, it works only on humanoids, they make an initial will save and if they fail that, they make a save once every 3d6+12 seconds (doubled if extend is on) until they succeed.

There is a difference between the two spells but it has nothing to do with whether heighten is turned on or not, that just makes the save harder to resist. It comes down to your personal preference.

Not sure I understand your second question OP.

[ktb]

The original question was based on effect vs. spell points.

I did not realize that suggestion was'nt limited to humanoids (I've been spamming it everywhere since I found out that gem), so I thought the only difference was a +2 on DC for the cost of 10 SP.

[coolpenguin410]

I prefer charm spells over suggestion. Charm has a potential to last 10 minutes (20 if extended). If you're built for Enchantments, it is possible to have mobs charmed this long (not likely at high end). Suggestion only lasts 6 seconds per caster levels, meaning a max duration of just over 3 minutes when extended. I can usually get much more time out of a charm spell without extend or heighten.

[redoubt]

As penguin said, I have an enchanter and use charm monster (like person, only works on everything). If you are a high DC caster charm will often last much longer than suggestion.

[hydra_ex]

Suggestion works on everything and has a shorter duration than the charm and dominate chains.

In pnp, command undead charms an undead creature, which (contrary to DDO) turns it into a friend, not your slave, while command (like dominate) turns it into your slave. In DDO however, control undead is INFERIOR to command undead, as both allow will saves, yet command undead will charm non-intellogent undead (most skeletons and zombies) WITHOUT any will save, while control undead allows will saves to everything. Against other undead, just make sure to heighten command undead.

Summary: Charm Person charms any humanoid, Suggestion charms anything for a short while, Charm monster charms anything for a while, Dominate Person charms any humanoid for a very long time, and Dominate monster (when it comes out), charms any monster for a very long time.

P.S. Also note that mass suggestion is a spell, mass charm person/monster is not.

[MrWizard]

dominate person is an upgrade of charm person, charm monster upgrade of suggestion.

For me, both last way longer than auggest or persuasion....way way longer.

i always use heighten and do not carry extend usually...as far as i thought they are not affected by it.

heighten will increase the DC to land the spell.....thus saving mana by not having to cast over and over with failures.

I always leave it on, all the time...

control undead is poor...huge timer...useless