So is a transmuter really better than SOS against Big Red?

[Angelus_dead]

I was being somewhat facetious when I called all other shroud weapon effects "useless garbage", but my point remains -- if you're using any shroud melee weapon in there other than a mineral II weapon, you're giving up damage relative to a weapon that would bypass DR.

A Lightning II weapon is more damaging than +1 transmuting. It's also more damaging than +5 transmuting. Or even +5 transmuting of pure good.

The transmuting gives you +15 damage. Lightning II has 2d6 Holy + 1d6 Shock + 10 Lightning Strike + some more Shocking Burst/Blast. That comes to 3d6+10 ~=19.5 extra damage, so that it is ahead of +5 transmuting by 4.5 damage even before you factor in the burst, blast, and larger physical damage die.

[Averroes]

A Lightning II weapon is more damaging than +1 transmuting. It's also more damaging than +5 transmuting. Or even +5 transmuting of pure good.

The transmuting gives you +15 damage. Lightning II has 2d6 Holy + 1d6 Shock + 10 Lightning Strike + some more Shocking Burst/Blast. That comes to 3d6+10 ~=19.5 extra damage, so that it is ahead of +5 transmuting by 4.5 damage even before you factor in the burst, blast, and larger physical damage die.

Only if you're using one-handed weapons, and only on normal.

If you're using a two-hander, transmuting is giving you 15 + (.2 * 60) = 27. So the lighting weapon is behind by 7.5 before factoring in burst and blast (which are unlikely to make up the difference), against just a plain jane +5 transmuter.



The other thing not being considered here is crit damage -- not bypassing DR also reduces your crittable damage. Once you factor that in, the gap widens dramatically in favor of transmuters.

For instance, if you're using a greataxe with a barbarian, and critting 17-20, you're giving up 45 damage per crit, 180 damage per 20 swings, or an average of 9 additional damage per swing.

So to add that back to the calculation above, the simple +5 transmuter is really at 36 damage added due to bypassing DR, as opposed to the 19.5 from the lightning damage dice. So a weapon that you can buy on the auction house for face value is roughly twice as effective as a weapon that takes 20+ shroud runs to grind out.


Again, the difference isn't as great with one handed weapons, and isn't as great on normal as on hard and elite, but if you really think that all those damage dice are making up for your yellow first number, you're very likely wrong. There's always the case of the 9 strength rogue, or whatever, but for the vast majority of situations, if you aren't bypassing DR, you aren't doing the most damage you could be doing.


For completeness, here's the calculation with a dual-wielding ranger:

+15 to every swing. Assume rapier, crit 15-20/x2. So 30*6=180 damage per 20 swings, same 9 average = 24

So if the burst and blast portion of the lightning effect equal 4.5 average damage over 20 swings they break even (the plain +5 transmuter and the tier-3 lightning weapon, that is). The mineral II weapon is miles ahead in each of these cases. Simply miles.

[Aranticus]

For instance, if you're using a greataxe with a barbarian, and critting 17-20, you're giving up 45 damage per crit, 180 damage per 20 swings, or an average of 9 additional damage per swing.

wrong even on crit you still get DR15, the DR is not multiplied

ie
normal hit: weapon damage - DR, eg 50 - 15 = 35

crit hit: weapon damagex3 - DR, eg 50x3 - 15 = 135

both attacks are reduced by 15, the DR is not applied before the multiplication

[Averroes]

wrong even on crit you still get DR15, the DR is not multiplied

ie
normal hit: weapon damage - DR, eg 50 - 15 = 35

crit hit: weapon damagex3 - DR, eg 50x3 - 15 = 135

both attacks are reduced by 15, the DR is not applied before the multiplication

You're right. Dunno what I was thinking there.

[Angelus_dead]

That's incorrect. And really easy to test. Otherwise my SOS would crit Harry for 180, not 150.

No, you're the one who is incorrect. But it's true that this is easy to test.

[Aranticus]

That's incorrect. And really easy to test. Otherwise my SOS would crit Harry for 180, not 150.

assuming 50 str barb with maxed out PA enhancement

SoS = 12
str mod = +30
bard song = +6
prayer = +1
PA = 16
total = 65
crit = 195

DR = 15

actual damage = 180

assuming 40 str barb with maxed out PA enhancement

SoS = 12
str mod = +22
bard song = +6
prayer = +1
PA = 16
total = 57
crit = 171

DR = 15

actual damage = 156

i know most barb do not have a consistent 50 str....

[spyderwolf]

assuming 50 str barb with maxed out PA enhancement

SoS = 12
str mod = +30
bard song = +6
prayer = +1
PA = 16
total = 65
crit = 195

DR = 15

actual damage = 180

assuming 40 str barb with maxed out PA enhancement

SoS = 12
str mod = +22
bard song = +6
prayer = +1
PA = 16
total = 57
crit = 171

DR = 15

actual damage = 156

i know most barb do not have a consistent 50 str....

you forgot seeker +6 ..cause what dps'er doesnt have a bloodstone? so 156+18=174 and a 40 is a low end barb so your really looking at 44-46 str, making your upper end crits exceed 180+

[Aranticus]

you forgot seeker +6 ..cause what dps'er doesnt have a bloodstone? so 156+18=174 and a 40 is a low end barb so your really looking at 44-46 str, making your upper end crits exceed 180+

nope i did not forget. i did not put it in as there are people who are unable to get a bloodstone. i also left out warchanting buffs as well as barb damage boost. these are not the norm. as for the strength, i factored in a 40 str as well as a 50 str for the lower and upper limits

[Averroes]

A Lightning II weapon is more damaging than +1 transmuting. It's also more damaging than +5 transmuting. Or even +5 transmuting of pure good.

The transmuting gives you +15 damage. Lightning II has 2d6 Holy + 1d6 Shock + 10 Lightning Strike + some more Shocking Burst/Blast. That comes to 3d6+10 ~=19.5 extra damage, so that it is ahead of +5 transmuting by 4.5 damage even before you factor in the burst, blast, and larger physical damage die.

One last thing: counting lightning strike as 10 average damage is being *very* generous. 1200 over 100 swings is 12, sure, but the odds of having both procs do full damage without killing your target and wasting damage probably aren't very good.

[Aranticus]

One last thing: counting lightning strike as 10 average damage is being *very* generous. 1200 over 100 swings is 12, sure, but the odds of having both procs do full damage without killing your target and wasting damage probably aren't very good.

have you used a lightning strike before? if you have you'll know that the lightning strike does on average 530 - 670. most of the numbers you get however will lie between 600-630. plus we are talking about harry here with 750000 hp

[Averroes]

have you used a lightning strike before? if you have you'll know that the lightning strike does on average 530 - 670. most of the numbers you get however will lie between 600-630. plus we are talking about harry here with 750000 hp

Harry and Sulo are special cases with tons of hitpoints. The rest of this discussion applies equally to any target with DR, so things like wasted damage should be considered as well.

[Guildmaster_Kadish]

Harry and Sulo are special cases with tons of hitpoints. The rest of this discussion applies equally to any target with DR, so things like wasted damage should be considered as well.

Actually, the discussion is more regarding Arraetrikos and Suulomades... "So is a transmuter really better than SoS against Big Red?"

The fact is, it shouldn't matter which weapon you use against trash mobs with DR (ie, skellies, renders, etc.)--almost anything should be able to kill them reasonably quickly, and no weapon is going to make that huge of a difference on them. It is only on long drawn out fights like Arraetrikos and Suulomades that a 5-15 difference in damage per swing is going to matter.

So really, 10 damage per swing is probably being generous to the transmuter, as the 600 avg. damage works out to about 12 over the course of several hundred swings in a fight against one of the devil generals.

However, it is absolutely correct that 2-hander lightning weapons fall a good bit farther behind a transmuter because of the glancing blows.

[Aranticus]

Harry and Sulo are special cases with tons of hitpoints. The rest of this discussion applies equally to any target with DR, so things like wasted damage should be considered as well.

i dunno whats the title for then................