Barbarian Battlemage: Critique Welcome

[Findecano]

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Barbarian Battlemage
Level 16 Chaotic Neutral Human Male
(9 Barbarian \ 7 Sorcerer) 
Hit Points: 252
Spell Points: 613 
BAB: 12\12\17\22
Fortitude: 11
Reflex: 7
Will: 7

                  Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Stats         Base Stats         Modified Stats
Abilities        (Level 1)          (Level 16)           (Level 16)
Strength             16                 19                   20
Dexterity            14                 14                   14
Constitution         14                 14                   16
Intelligence          8                  8                    8
Wisdom                8                  8                    8
Charisma             14                 15                   16

                  Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills        Base Skills        Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)          (Level 16)          (Level 16)
Balance               4                  4                    4
Bluff                 2                  3                    3
Concentration         4                 22                   22
Diplomacy             2                  3                    3
Disable Device       n/a               n/a                   n/a
Haggle                2                  3                    3
Heal                 -1                 -1                   -1
Hide                  2                  2                    2
Intimidate            6                 21.5                 21.5
Jump                  3                  5                    5
Listen               -1                 -1                   -1
Move Silently         2                  2                    2
Open Lock             n/a               n/a                   n/a
Perform               n/a               n/a                   n/a
Repair               -1                 -1                   -1
Search               -1                 -1                   -1
Spot                 -1                 -1                   -1
Swim                  3                  5                    5
Tumble                4                  6                    6
Use Magic Device      n/a               n/a                   n/a

Level 1 (Barbarian)
Skill: Balance (+2)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Intimidate (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+2)
Feat: (Selected) Dodge
Feat: (Human Bonus) Two Handed Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Defensive Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Fast Movement
Feat: (Automatic) Heroic Durability
Feat: (Automatic) Light Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency (ALL)
Feat: (Automatic) Medium Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Rage
Feat: (Automatic) Shield Proficiency (General)
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency (ALL)
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak
Feat: (Automatic) Sunder
Feat: (Automatic) Trip
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Reduction Boost I
Enhancement: Barbarian Sprint Boost I
Enhancement: Barbarian Willpower I


Level 2 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Feat: (Automatic) Magical Training
Spell (1): Shield
Spell (1): Protection From Evil
Enhancement: Sorcerer Energy of the Dragonblooded I


Level 3 (Barbarian)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+2)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell
Feat: (Automatic) Damage Reduction
Feat: (Automatic) Uncanny Dodge
Enhancement: Barbarian Extend Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Extra Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Swamp Lore I
Enhancement: Barbarian Tundra Lore I
Enhancement: Barbarian Desert Lore I
Enhancement: Barbarian Constitution I


Level 4 (Sorcerer)
Ability Raise: CHA
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Spell (1): Tumble
Enhancement: Sorcerer Charisma I


Level 5 (Barbarian)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+2)
Feat: (Automatic) Trap Sense
Enhancement: Barbarian Hardy Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Rage I
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I


Level 6 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell
Spell (1): Burning Hands
Enhancement: Sorcerer Improved Maximizing I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Lineage of Elements I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Elemental Manipulation I


Level 7 (Barbarian)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+0.5)
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Reduction Boost II
Enhancement: Barbarian Willpower II


Level 8 (Sorcerer)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+0.5)
Spell (2): Blur
Enhancement: Sorcerer Elemental Manipulation II


Level 9 (Barbarian)
Skill: Concentration (+0.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+2)
Skill: Tumble (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Spell Penetration
Feat: (Automatic) Improved Uncanny Dodge
Enhancement: Barbarian Extend Rage II
Enhancement: Barbarian Item Defense I


Level 10 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+0.5)
Spell (2): Bull's Strength
Enhancement: Sorcerer Lineage of Deadly Elements I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Spell Penetration I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Energy of the Dragonblooded II


Level 11 (Barbarian)
Skill: Concentration (+1.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Enhancement: Barbarian Extra Rage II
Enhancement: Barbarian Hardy Rage II
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Rage II


Level 12 (Sorcerer)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Penetration
Spell (3): Fireball
Enhancement: Sorcerer Improved Maximizing II


Level 13 (Barbarian)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+2)
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Reduction Boost III
Enhancement: Barbarian Constitution II


Level 14 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+0.5)
Spell (2): Eagle's Spendor
Spell (3): Displacement
Enhancement: Sorcerer Lineage of Elements II


Level 15 (Barbarian)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Barbarian Toughness I
Enhancement: Barbarian Toughness II
Enhancement: Barbarian Toughness III


Level 16 (Barbarian)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+0.5)
Enhancement: Barbarian Extend Rage III

Will wear medium armor, act as an off-tank. I have RP before optimization in mind.

Thanks.

[Slayer918]

Sorc and barbarian have abolutely no synergy, I would recommend going fighter/wizard for the battlemage (no reason you cant have some rp and some effectiveness? unless you NEED rage for the rp purposes)

If your heart is set on the sorc/barbarian combo then atleast drop the spell penetration feats, you don't have any spells that make SR checks.

I think you'll find that by the time you have bull's str/eagle's splendor you'll already have +4 items and it wont do anything for you.

[Lithic]

Not to mention that you cannot cast spells while under the effects of barbarian rage...

[Oreg]

I have RP before optimization in mind.

Thanks.

Thank God!

j/k see previous posts. dead on.

[Angelus_dead]

Will wear medium armor, act as an off-tank. I have RP before optimization in mind.Thanks.

Roleplay as what, though? People who say "RP before optimization" often fall into a trap where they forget that the context is that the PCs here to take arms against a sea of troubles, and, by opposing end them. That's the plot.

Anyway, the biggest problems:
1. Barbarians can't be mages. The only reason to be a barbarians is the Rage feature, and Rage disallows the casting of spells. So you should switch those barb levels into fighter, paladin, or ranger.

2. Human mages can't heal themselves. The only mages who can heal themselves with their own spells are Warforged. The two partially-useful things you can do with 7 caster levels is buff or heal, and to be non-warforged means giving up half that benefit. So change the race to warforged.

3. Warforged aren't good sorcs. Warforged have -2 charisma below most races, so it's harder for them to hit the minimum to cast spells. Switch sorc levels to wizard.

4. Wizards are better for splash casters. Wizards get more spells known at once, learn spells at a lower level, and get some metamagic feats for free. The free metamagic is going to be Extend, so your self-buffs last twice as long. Switch sorc levels to wizard.

That covers the most glaring problems, I think.

[wolfy42]

Barbarian/sorcs work great......but I would suggest going the WF route as one of the largest advantages of a barbarian sorc is self healing (even if you can't do it while raged).

Another advantage of course is the high Mana pool without maxed out sorc lvls and the ability to have extreme ranged dmg though magic missiles (no save). That works well with the barbarian lvls high melee DPS.

Main problem though is you sacrifice alot of barbarian melee DPS for the sorc levels you take. As mentioned wizard works better for buffing (displacement/haste etc before raging) and has a better synergy.

Still sorc can work....and a WF works fine since you don't need a very high Charisma to use healing/mm's etc. Even a 12 starting charaisma will work on for a barbarian/sorc combo (although you may have to wear a +cha item eventually depending on how many sorc levels you take).

Here is the thing though....a few barbarian lvls = golden. It gives you barbarian speed boost (nice..and stacks with haste) and it gives you barbarian sprint (again stacks with haste) and barbarian DR (nice at low lvls) and of course it gives you 1 or 2 (depending on how many barbarian lvls you take) rages...though not long lasting.

If you are going with more barbarian lvls...well thats the problem....you need to take alot of them to make it really effective. 10 gives you full rage and 12-14 gives you the crit bonuses etc. That does not leave much froom for sorc levels at all....and you want at least enough to get haste/displacement!!


So the best solution I can give you is to mix your sorc levels with a few barbarian lvls (to get speed boosts etc) and a few fighter levels (to get strength boost + fighter attack speed boost etc).

Also going WF...well thats just a good idea in this case...so you can self heal effectivly.

Then you need to determine your split....how many sorc levels do you REALLY need?

Thing is...it's VERY nice to get reconstruction on your character...and you can still reach a high enough AB to be effective in a fight even going for a high enough lvl to reach reconstruction. In addition you get significant increases to your MM dmg etc at that point for some serious long ranged DPS.

That requires a very small # of fighter/barbarian lvls though. For optimum sorc right now you can get all of your sorc spells except the final lvl with a sorc 14/barbarian 1/fighter 1 build. That gives you reconstruction, tons of mana, plenty of spell options and buffs and the ability to cast since your not raged all the time etc.

Personally I like at least 2 fighter lvls for the +1 strength (which you need to help pump your AB.

A WF setup like this:

32 point WF sorc 12/barbarian 1/fighter 2

Str 18 base (16 points) +4 lvl + 1 fighter + 3 tome + 6 item = 32 + 4 rage + 4 rage clickie = 40 for short bursts (AB is also boosted with GH etc so hitting is not a problem)
Dex 08
Con 18 base (10) +2 WF + 2 tome + 6 item= 28 (+9 per lvl helps with natural low max hp
Int 08
Wis 06 (weakness of build is low will saves)
Cha 12 (06) +3 enhancement + 2 tome = 17 cha without an item (ability to cast lvl 7 spells naturally)

Hp max is fairly decent maxing out at

+20 durability
+30 GFL
+10 dragon viality
+18 Minos
+48 sorc
+12 barb
+10 fighter
+18 toughness
+5 toughness enhancement
+144 con
=315

Not as high as most would like for a melee character.....especially with non-existant AC...but remember you have constant displacement going...so 50% miss chance all the time. You also have Stoneskin going as well AND you can self heal at will.

[Angelus_dead]

Wis 06 (weakness of build is low will saves)
Cha 12 (06) +3 enhancement + 2 tome = 17 cha without an item (ability to cast lvl 7 spells naturally)

If that character took Force of Personality, his will save would increase by +8, or +11 with a charisma item.

[wolfy42]

Roleplay as what, though? People who say "RP before optimization" often fall into a trap where they forget that the context is that the PCs here to take arms against a sea of troubles, and, by opposing end them. That's the plot.

Anyway, the biggest problems:
1. Barbarians can't be mages. The only reason to be a barbarians is the Rage feature, and Rage disallows the casting of spells. So you should switch those barb levels into fighter, paladin, or ranger.

2. Human mages can't heal themselves. The only mages who can heal themselves with their own spells are Warforged. The two partially-useful things you can do with 7 caster levels is buff or heal, and to be non-warforged means giving up half that benefit. So change the race to warforged.

3. Warforged aren't good sorcs. Warforged have -2 charisma below most races, so it's harder for them to hit the minimum to cast spells. Switch sorc levels to wizard.

4. Wizards are better for splash casters. Wizards get more spells known at once, learn spells at a lower level, and get some metamagic feats for free. The free metamagic is going to be Extend, so your self-buffs last twice as long. Switch sorc levels to wizard.

That covers the most glaring problems, I think.

Hehe Angelus we always end up in the same threads

I think I covered your points in my reply, but I'll expand a bit on them.

The advantage of bararian lvls for the sorc/wizard is bonus movement speed, bonus hp and damage while ranged (although only short term without many barbarian levels) and the use of barbarian boost abilities (primarly the barbarian speed boost ....which stacks with haste and exp retreat). In addition the +12 hp per lvl base of a barbarian is nice and you can get toughness enhancements as well to pump your max hp a bit more (a weakness of melee mages).

that being said I don't suggest a large number of barbarian lvls..and in fact just 1 is generally plenty (2 can allow for +1 more con though...and can be considered. In the above build if you take 2 fighter/2 barbarian instead of 2 fighter 1 barbarian...you get +1 more con...an extra rage per rest and with a +3 tome end game that would boost your max hp (vie your con being 2 higher) up another 16 points to 331....useful to say the least.

2: I did mention that you should be warforged not human. Really.....if your going to go this route....please go warforged and make it worthwhile. In addition your low wisdom saves are REALLY going to hurt if you don't go warforged. Did I mention that I think Warforged is a good idea here?

3: I usually agree with you but some of my best and most favorite sorc have been WF. In fact.......I think sorcs are my favorite class for WF. The speed healing is awsome!! I love it, got addicted to it and had to wean myself away with halfling dragonmarks (I love halflings more then any other race). If your sorc is not going for high DC's and intends on using non-save spells, buffs and heals with his huge Sorc mana pool...then WF is fine. You don't even need a tome to start off with and can hold off till end game before investing more then a +1 tome (till your high enough to run for your +3 tome..skipping the +2 level all together). A +1 cha tome is cake by the time you need it as well. With a 12 base cha....you don't even need a +cha item for your character to be able to cast spells. Lvl 2 sorc gives you +1 to cha...a 13 base......lvl 4 sorc is when you can cast lvl 2 spells and lvl 6 sorc is when you can cast lvl 3 spells (at which point you get +2 to cha so you have a 14 base). Lvl 8 sorc is lvl 4 spells (you already have the cha needed) and lvl 10 sorc is lvl 5 spells (at which point you can get +3 to cha and have enough to cast spells still without a cha item at all). You don't actually need a +1 tome till lvl 12 sorc...which is your maxed sorc lvl with the 12 sorc/2 fighter/2 barbarian build. At that point you could get a +3 tome...if you want...but it is not even needed.

4. Wizards do splash better in many situations...but the advantages a sorc gets for melee WF are huge. The instant casting of heal spells is well.....priceless. The extra mana pool especially at lower lvls (it evens out more top end..but with multiclass you don't get to the top end) is also very important. You will miss the extra feats from wizard....it's true....but if your going for a very specific type of build..the smaller spell selection does not hurt to much. High melee dps + displacement/Stoneskin/Haste + Magic missile for range + instant extreme healing in combat = win.

I do admit...and warn anyone playing such a character that it is very item dependant. You need good equipment going up the levels. Played right though it can rock. Also you can take Adamantium armor early on, snag Arcane docents etc to boost defense and only switch it out after you get displacement and your AC no longer is making a difference. It helps the early levels a bit if you go that route (the extra DR helps too).

[wolfy42]

If that character took Force of Personality, his will save would increase by +8, or +11 with a charisma item.

Good point...but the character won't have space for a cha item probably (need GFL/GH (mod fort = heavy fort on WF)/protection item etc....very equipment dependant build.

Also...your a WF so the will saves are not that important. With both fighter lvl and paladin lvl your fort saves get a significant boost (and your con helps as well) so your not as weak in that department as most (and you can boost fort saves a bit more with WF enhancement).

The will save problem is mainly a large weakness to being feared which is much stronger now that you can't drink fear potions yourself. This is mostly a problem early game though and it's not THAT bad.....you can boost your fear reistant with potions/spells as well anyway. Possibly taking force of personality as well to really help and using a cha item at low lvl then switching it out later.

I should mention, I'm a speed addict....I love having very fast movement speeds on my characters. Barbarian lvls are vital for that (although ranger lvls can be used for non-WF that want to wand whip as well..and get a few extra feats). The barbarian lvl gives 10% speed base in addition to the speed boosts though.....so it's really the optimum class to splash for high speed runs (farming for certain items etc).

You play a character like that...and then a normal one even with striding + exp retreat items....and the normal character feels SOOOOO SLOW...it's painful.

Should have seen me trudging around with an earth stance dwarf till I realized I could just turn off earth stance between fights...it was driving me crazy lol.

[Findecano]

Having problems with network lag. My original post didn't show up, so I created this one. So this is a double thread. Sorry again.

[Findecano]

I just typed out a medium sized post and pressed send and I lost it, because the client timed out. I am super ****ed, because I have to log-in to these forums every 5-10 minutes.

I'm sorry guys, but I don't have the patience or the memory to retype everything I just typed. But I did address all of your points.

Basically, I don't want to be a warforged, even though I see the wisdom in self healing and their immunities. This is for RP reasons. I prefer to be Human or Elf or one of their sub-species. I also want to be equally as good in melee as I am in offensive spell casting and it doesn't seem I will be able to do that in this game the way I want. I will think about what other types of characters I like to play and then get back to work on building one.

Sorry to waste your time all.

[Guildmaster_Kadish]

I just typed out a medium sized post and pressed send and I lost it, because the client timed out. I am super ****ed, because I have to log-in to these forums every 5-10 minutes.

I'm sorry guys, but I don't have the patience or the memory to retype everything I just typed. But I did address all of your points.

Basically, I don't want to be a warforged, even though I see the wisdom in self healing and their immunities. This is for RP reasons. I prefer to be Human or Elf or one of their sub-species. I also want to be equally as good in melee as I am in offensive spell casting and it doesn't seem I will be able to do that in this game the way I want. I will think about what other types of characters I like to play and then get back to work on building one.

Sorry to waste your time all.

I currently play a drow 14 sorc/ 2 paladin that (I think) works quite well. The synergy is much better than barbarian/sorceror, and I think that such a build would work out a lot better for you. However, the one downside is that you really don't get your full melee capability until around level 11 when you start to get access to divine power clickies (though you could always use divine power scrolls as early as level 5 if you have the UMD). Given that you're RPing, though, I'm not sure what your situation is so far as building the character for endgame content or primarily midgame. In the end, the important thing is that you enjoy your character.

Just my 2cp.