Monk Finisher System Improvements

[Angelus_dead]

Some of the Finishing Moves available to monks are nice, but they're a little too hard to activate. It takes too much effort and restraint on the part of the player to actually have the move available at the time you want to use it. The following suggestions could improve things to where finishers are a concrete benefit of being a monk. Right now, the cost (restraining your attacks to stay within a combo) are too high compared to the benefits (usually a debuff against which the monster will probably pass his fort save anyhow)

Usability Suggestions
1. Durable finishers. Actions like opening a door, drinking a potion, or looting an item should either not interfere with finishers in any way, or at least not break a prepared finisher. Becoming uncentered can still break the finisher. If it is felt that this change allows monks to walk around with a prepared finisher for too long, then a time limit of 30-60 seconds can be added (that timer would reset each time the monk gains Ki).

2. Persistent finishers. Once you have a finisher prepared, it should stay prepared even if you make other special attacks that do not form a finisher. Using a notation of PNFWAE to denote the 6 possible attack categories, consider the attack sequence EPEEEP. There are 6 attacks in the sequence, and under the current rules you could add a finisher either after the 3rd attack (EPE) or the 5th attack (EEE). You couldn't make one after the 4th attack (PEE) or 6th attack (EEP), because those are not valid combos, even though you had earned a finisher earlier.

If my suggestion is taken, then a monk who had assembled a finisher but made other special attacks which haven't yet formed their own combo would still have the first finisher available. A monk who started a fight with FNF would have Karmic Strike available until he activates it, becomes uncentered, or makes another finisher.

3. Unfunded finishers. If you attempt a finisher and do not have enough Ki, it should remain available for later when you have enough.


Nerf Suggestions
4. If you attempt a special attack while blocking and do not spend Ki or make the attack, it should not count towards a finisher. It should mean nothing.

5. If you die, you should lose your finisher. Otherwise is silly.

Buff Suggestion
This would make finishers a little faster to achieve and less costly overall. It would have to be viewed as increasing the power of monks (but making them more dependent on stance). I'm not recommending this change as strongly- it's just food for thought. (It could be added as an optional higher-level enhancement)

6. If you are in an elemental stance and have fewer than 3 moves in your finisher combo, you are considered to have a move matching your stance as the first entry of the combo. For example, that would mean a monk in Mountain stance could execute Pain Touch with only NE to prepare it. In another stance (or no stance) he'd have to use the full ENE sequence for Pain Touch. This means that finishers are faster to earn when in a stance matching their energy.

[MysticTheurge]

I like these ideas.

[LA_MIKE]

..

[adamkatt]

I would like finishers to do some sort of cool attack...

[Riddikulus]

I haven't ever been able to get a finisher to do anything. I don't see any indication that it is anything but available but when I click on it it does nothing. So there is something I don't "get" about them. Am I just clueless?

Edit: nm... I see the linked move list above... reminds me of street fighter combos.

[Borror0]

I like these ideas.

Am I reading right? You're agreeing w/ A-d?!

[Angelus_dead]

2. Persistent finishers. Once you have a finisher prepared, it should stay prepared even if you make other special attacks that do not form a finisher.

A follow-on suggestion related to artwork.

Using the Persistent Finisher suggestion would mean that monks would have a finisher ready for a much bigger percentage of the time. Once they had done 3 attacks to make a finisher combo, it would stay ready until used or replaced with another finisher. This increases the power of the monk, because he has more abilities available at one time... but it causes a visual annoyance.

When a monk is "carrying" a finisher, that player (and only that player) sees a bright glow all over the monk's body, to tell him it's ready. It would get annoying if that glow were covering you for extended time periods. That doesn't happen currently, because the finisher is "fragile" and any little thing breaks it. If finishers are made durable and persistent it would last seemingly forever. Thus I suggest modifying it to only glow brightly for 1/2 second or so, and then fade out. This means the glow would inform you whever a new finisher was available, but not keep reminding you endlessly.

[Tyrande]

My vote is for the finishing moves to gain in duration and power as you level.
So far, I think the monk is gimped comparing to other fighting classes.

For example a burning hands 5d4 cone at level 16 is pretty weak.

It would be better to be (monk level + wisdom bonus) /2 * 1d4

Also, blur for 20 seconds (dance of the clouds) at level 16 is also VERY insignificant.

It would be better to be (monk level + wisdom bonus) /2 * 20 seconds

Otherwise, people would prefer buffs from wizards, sorcerors and bards instead.

There is the Healing Ki I for 2d4. Are there Healing Ki II, III and IV at higher levels?

Perhaps, Healing Ki II should apply at level 6, Healing Ki III should apply at level 12, and Healing Ki IV should apply at level 18 monk.

Healing Ki II = mass cure medium wounds
Healing Ki III = mass cure serious wounds
Healing Ki IV = mass cure critical wounds

Samething with debuffing durations.

[MysticTheurge]

Am I reading right? You're agreeing w/ A-d?!

It's really not that unusual.

[Borror0]

It's really not that unusual.

I know, but it's still rare.

[Serpent]

Am I reading right? You're agreeing w/ A-d?!

Sadly most people respond to A_D's post style which is blunt and to the point (frankly I find it saves space, something that I don't do well as well as many others) instead of the actual content of the post. Maybe more will read, think then respond.

[Borror0]

Maybe more will read, think then respond.

Actually, that's for anything.

I have argued with people thinking that I said rangers were overpowered, when I clearly said multiple times that they were alright but that other classes were too weak. I had people telling me to stop telling them to not play their paladin when I clearly stated that paladins were still playable. There is a lot of people that can't past the fact that you attack something that they like and will automaticly become hostile to you.

[Angelus_dead]

My vote is for the finishing moves to gain in duration and power as you level.
So far, I think the monk is gimped comparing to other fighting classes.

Yes, that is a separate change that might be a good idea in some cases. My suggestion here was just relating to the system of how you activate finishers, not the power of the finishers themselves.

Note that some of the finishers already gain in power as you advance in level: of the 14 total finishers, 7 of them have a saving throw DC that increases by +1 per two monk levels. If the basic effect is good enough, then that can suffice for advancing in level.

For example Pain Touch prevents the creature from taking actions for the duration, so it's a powerful thing at any level (especially since creatures with bad fort saves often have dangerous spells). Conversely Gathering Storm is only -2 on attack rolls, so it's always kinda weak (especially since creatures whose attack rolls are dangerous probably have good fort)

Also, blur for 20 seconds (dance of the clouds) at level 16 is also VERY insignificant.

It would be better to be (monk level + wisdom bonus) /2 * 20 seconds

The Dance of Heavens and Walk of the Sun finishers duplicate the Heroism and Blur spells. Regardless of the monk's duration, people will probably prefer to get those spells from an arcane- or actually, they'd prefer to get Greater Heroism and Displacement, which completely overwhelm the lesser effects. One first step towards salvaging those finishers would be to allow them to gradually ramp up in power from a +2 bonus or 20% concealment to +4 bonus and 50% concealment (they would not have to jump all the way from 20% to 50% in one step)

There is the Healing Ki I for 2d4. Are there Healing Ki II, III and IV at higher levels?

That's a bug in the description text. Healing Ki I already scales as you level. It might be 2d4+level/2 or something, I forget.

[Wook]

Another possible suggestion to improve the finishers would be add some finishing moves that need a long chain but have better effects
Like instead of a normal burning hands if you do ffffff maybe you would throw out a scorching ray or two

[Alcides]

Here's some more monk improvements

Flurry of Blows:

Allow Two weapon fighting to stack with Flurry of Blows when using Unarmed attacks or Quarterstaves(double weapon). There's nothing in the rules stating you can't do this.

Monk Bonus AC:

Monk AC works as long as a monk is unarmored, carrying less than a medium load, not carry a shield, not helpless and not immobilized. Anything else is fair game meaning a monk should get this bonus when using any type of weapon. Note this is different than flurry because a monk must also be using monk weapons in order to Flurry.

Air Stance:

Haste specifically states that the extra attack it grants during a full round action does not stack with the extra attacks from any other source. From what I've read Haste stacks with the attack speed increases from Fighter Haste 1-4, Ranger Tempest 1, Rogue Haste Boost 1-4, and Rogue Way of the Thief Acrobat 1. Why should Air Stance be treated differently?

[silverraven]

I don't mean to hate on your thread. I just think that a monk is not a wizard. Turbine stayed true to the monk style with the centering bit. When you meditate and become centered anything will break it. Anything else will make them overpowered and then they'll get nerfed, which will create even more Dev-hate.

[Angelus_dead]

I don't mean to hate on your thread. I just think that a monk is not a wizard. Turbine stayed true to the monk style with the centering bit. When you meditate and become centered anything will break it.

That makes no sense, and is also untrue.

Anything else will make them overpowered and then they'll get nerfed, which will create even more Dev-hate.

That's untrue as well.

[Angelus_dead]

Flurry of Blows:
Allow Two weapon fighting to stack with Flurry of Blows when using Unarmed attacks or Quarterstaves(double weapon). There's nothing in the rules stating you can't do this.

It already stacks in DDO. Clearly, you meant to say something else.

Monk Bonus AC:
Monk AC works as long as a monk is unarmored, carrying less than a medium load, not carry a shield, not helpless and not immobilized. Anything else is fair game meaning a monk should get this bonus when using any type of weapon.

You apparently do not know the conditions under which a DDO monk receives his AC bonus.

Haste specifically states that the extra attack it grants during a full round action does not stack with the extra attacks from any other source.

No, it makes no such statement. There is another game called D&D which has a spell also called Haste, and it says something like that. But this is a DDO forum, not D&D.

[Alcides]

It already stacks in DDO. Clearly, you meant to say something else.

No, I was pretty clear here. Two weapon fighting + Flurry of Blows should work while using unarmed attacks or Quarterstaves.

You apparently do not know the conditions under which a DDO monk receives his AC bonus.

My bad this is working as the PnP version.

No, it makes no such statement. There is another game called D&D which has a spell also called Haste, and it says something like that. But this is a DDO forum, not D&D.

DDO Haste
Quickens allies, causing them to move 40% faster and attack 25% faster than normal. In addition the recipient gains a +1 enhancement bonus to attack rolls and a +1 dodge bonus to AC and Reflex saves.

Yeah yeah, it doesn't work like the PnP version at lower levels; however, when I have four attacks normally and I attack 25% faster than normal that means I get 5 attacks. As the number of my iterative attacks in a round increases beyond 4, then I am guaranteed mathematically to get at least one extra attack in that round.

If you want to argue semantics the DDO version of Haste does not limit the stacking of attack speed. Therefore, why should Air Stance which also grants an increase to Attack Speed not stack with Haste? It's inconsistent with other abilities that grant attack speed increases.

[Strakeln]

It already stacks in DDO. Clearly, you meant to say something else.

I thought what he was getting at is pretty clear: make TWF feats apply to unarmed and Q-staves attacks. From what I've read on the forums, they do not.

I'm not sure about the Q-staves, but unless your character had an arm amputated, it makes sense that the TWF chain should apply to unarmed attacks.