Did I nerf myself?

[Gordo]

i would like a dev to explain why THF does not work wih a qstaff and if that is true, what chain of enhancements does or will so users of qstaves can get the same benefits as other weapons.

[MrCow]

Testing it in game has its problems since all stats are generated from random dice rolls.

Glancing Blow Damage is a percentage of the base damage you can deal (Dependant on BAB), so the spread is only about 1 point from the low glancing blow damage you can do to the high glancing blow damage you can do. Glancing Blow Damage is actually among one of the easier things in the game to test in regards to the quarterstaff Two-Handed Fighting feat issue.

Also, I don't claim to be the maker of the information that follows below but some of you folks should find it interesting (note, some numbers may not be completely right):

A Glancing Blow's damage is depending upon three major factors, your BAB, your base damage, and your two handed-fighting feats. Depending on your BAB you use a multiplier on the base damage (not directly the swing's base damage) to find out the Glancing Blow damage. Anything that boosts the physical damage portion of your swing can raise your glancing blow damage (Inspire Courage, Ram's Might, Divine Favor, Rage, the monk's earth-based 5 KI attack, etc.)

• A BAB of +0 to +9 will make you do 20% of the base damage as a glancing blow.
• A BAB of +10 to +15 will make you do 25% of the base damage as a glancing blow.
• A BAB of +16 to ?? will make you do 30% of the base damage as a glancing blow.

The Two-Handed Fighting feats add directly to the base damage of a glancing blow (but not the base damage of your original attack). Because these feats add to the base damage of the glancing blow they will cause the glancing blow to deal more damage. Also, due to the fact that they add to the base damage of the glancing blow they scale with the BAB part.

• The Two-Handed Fighting feat adds +10 to the base damage of a glancing blow, before dividing your BAB multiplier.
• The Improved Two-Handed Fighting feat adds +20 more to the base damage of a glancing blow (stacking with Two-Handed Fighting for a cumulative +30), before dividing your BAB multiplier.
• I have no testing information for Greater Two-Handed Fighting.

This leads to the following forumla:

Glancing Blow Damage = (Base Damage + Two-Handed Fighting Feat base damage) * BAB multiplier

So, based on all of this, lets make a couple examples.

In my example earlier of the quarterstaff a few posts ago I had a base damage of 1d6 + 31, a BAB of 16, and Improved Two-Weapon Fighting. The formula would look like such:

Glancing Blow Damage = ((1d6 + 31) + 30) * 0.3

Glancing Blow Damage = (62 through 67) * 0.3

Glancing Blow Damage = 18.6 through 20.1

I was reporting a damage spread of 18 through 19, so this is pretty darned close.

Another example, lets take someone with a greataxe (for an imagined 1d12 + 27, because I feel like it), a BAB of 12, and none of the feats:

Glancing Blow Damage = ((1d12 + 27) + 0) * 0.25

Glancing Blow Damage = (28 through 39) * 0.25

Glancing Blow Damage = 7 through 9.75

And lets add Improved Two-Handed Fighting to see the difference:

Glancing Blow Damage = ((1d12 + 27) + 30) * 0.25

Glancing Blow Damage = (58 through 69) * 0.25

Glancing Blow Damage = 14.5 through 17.25

Thats almost double the glancing blow damage with those feats.



Also, to help break it down a bit for some people:

BAB     FEAT    Added Damage to Glancing Blow
0-9     None    0
0-9     THF     2
0-9     ITHF    6
10-15   None    0
10-15   THF     2.5
10-15   ITHF    7.5
0-9     None    0
0-9     THF     3
0-9     ITHF    9

By the way, if you don't believe Two-Handed Fighting works for quarterstaffs, take it and compare what you did before you got it and after you got it. Based on the above math you WILL notice a difference somewhere.

[Gordo]

Thanks Mr. Cow. I appreciate you trying to get to the bottom of this. My issue is that with the limited wep options for a monk, I wold think a qstave would be an automatic choice. If the enhancement line for qstaves is nerfed, I would just like to know why (what makes qstaves "special" from other THF)? and will this be fixed at some point if it is nerfed?

G

[MrCow]

If the enhancement line for qstaves is nerfed, I would just like to know why (what makes qstaves "special" from other THF)? and will this be fixed at some point if it is nerfed?

The only thing that makes a quarterstaff special from the other two-handed weapons in the game are:

• Its the fastest two-handed weapon in the game.
• It has a unique animation.
• It gets glancing blows on the 3rd attack instead of the 1st attack (it still has a 5th attack glancing blow and gains a 4th attack glancing blow with Greater Two-Handed Fighting).

[Aspenor]

Greater THF works with Qstaffs. None of the other THF feats do, however.

[Dailus]

MrCow does give a very convincing argument, but it also contradicts DeadlyGazebo's statement. Its obvious MrCow has put some time and effort into testing this. So ok maybe, as OP suggested, we do need a dev to weigh in on this. Because either :

• Something has changed since January 2007.
• DeadlyGazebo was mistaken in his earlier statement.
• This is a unintended side effect to taking THF with quarterstaves that is actually a bug.

In any case it would be nice to find out the truth of the matter from the developers. I have been leveling a Thief-acrobat character and did not take and THF feats based on Deadly Gazebo's original statement.

-Dailus

[Gordo]

It appears you have to take Improved (useless) in order to take Greater (useful)?

[Angelus_dead]

[*]DeadlyGazebo was mistaken in his earlier statement.

I suspect he was inaccurate when he said there was "no affect". He probably meant that the staff animations lacked the hooks to gain glancing blows from the THF feats, but not that the damage fraction of a glancing blow would be unaffected by the feats.

[Ereshkigal]

Some people want to call the Quarterstaff a Two Handed weapon, but others want to call it a double-weapon. Some thing THF line should affect it, and others think the TWF line should affect it. I've read many claims of both, but the only 'official' answer that has ever been posted is that THF line was not intended to affect a quarterstaff. As to testing in-game, the sheer amount of time it would require to get a result that was statistically significant would be very prohibitive.

[Gordo]

The only thing I know as confirmed, however, is that Improved THF does not affect qstaves but Greater does so THF seems to be the right feat line.