Are paladins overpowered?!

[Borror0]

That's a bogus challenge and I'm pretty sure you know it. There will always be a "weakest" class if you are forced to configure the question like that. Its quite likely that paladins are that class at the moment.

You fail to understand that is totally the point and, that alone, makes it worth to boost paladins.

You see, Turbine will always add more and more feats, spells and enhancements to the game, always. They will always add more. It's not a question of balancing, because even if they would reach perfect balance, they would keep on adding enhancements, spells and feats because this is an MMO and thus will always have new content to keep its players occupied. Now, if we petition developers like this is that paladins have remained at the very bottom for too long.

Honestly, paladins have fallen to the botom in Module 4.0 and Turbine has improved all other classes ever since.

The whole reason we ask them to give the level 12-16 paladins some love is to keep the sort of balance we have. Since they keep adding sutff, if they don't add anything to the paladin, he'll fall further behind. That's the point of targetting, paladins, and to petition for some love. After that, you will see me jumping on fighter, then on monks... then, we'll see what happens.

The whole point is to keep a balance.

[TechNoFear]

I don't think it is that paladins are underpowered, it is just the other classes got overpowered benefits (Crit Rage, Rams Might etc)

The other issue I have with my paladin (16) is that every ablility is a clicky (SE, ES and the new one that is not worth the points). A single missed attack in the chain negates any benefit of these abilities. Paladins know how often your SE fails to land or interupts your attack sequence. (sure this is a bug that is supposed to be fixed sometime in the future, why then was the only paladin love in mod 7 based on a buggy part of the game?)

Compared this to to other melees special abilities which are timed (Rage, Multi-Shot etc). Much better as the ability is not 100% negated because the mob moved, died or ran away.

Finally paladins enhancements are starting to cost reasonable amounts. Barbarians can double the number of rages with one point where Paladins had to pay 2 for one AC.

I also don't understand why paladin spells have short durations or effects that do not scale to high levels.

Divine Favor is great at low level, but too short at 16th. DF is in no way on par with Rams Might.
Angel Skin might be useful if it had a greater duration at better than haste.
What useful second lvl spell do paladins have apart from Resist Energy?

[Uska]

I was getting ready to jump all over you until I read the full post, but yeah they need some love.

[GlassCannon]

This community certainly is the purest form of that very phrase.


Enough, let it die.



As for Borror0's questions, I believe they deserve an answer rather than vague and subtle traipsing about the issue. Sadly, that is something I cannot provide. I don't have a Paladin.

[Geonis]

Obviously Paladins are way too overpowered, as you can tell by the "spells in development" list below.

Things that are currently being worked on also include:

Zeal
Paladin 2
Duration: 1 minute. (Swift casting, like Close Wounds.)
Benefit: Grants the Paladin a +4 deflection bonus to armor class and increases their movement speed.

Lionheart
Paladin 1
Duration: 24 seconds plus 6 per caster level.
Benefit: Imbues a single ally with great bravery, making them immune to fear.

Stalwart Pact
Cleric 5, Paladin 4
Benefit: Grants the target 5 hit points for every 2 caster levels, a +2 luck bonus to saving throws, and damage reduction 5/Magic, if the target of the spell falls below 50% hit points.

Seriously, these are going to bring the Paladin out of last place in any role in the game once you get into Gianthold and beyond?

How about the DEVS actually listen a little when the players talk? I don't mean blindly add anything we ask for, but when the common sense is that Paladins up to 11 are okay, and past then are an exercise in futility, how can they come back with spells that are rendered obsolete by:

• Zeal - a level 7 end reward [Delera's bracers], although I do like the speed boost, with the 1 minute duration and unknown % boost (not likely to stack with striding or Haste), it will most likely be worthless.
  
• Lionheart - for self, making level 3 renders this spell worthless, for others, Greater Hero starts being available at level 11. As far as removing Fear, level 1 pots do that quite well, or cheap clickies do it too, without costing mana.
  
• Stalwart Pact - this spell never has any use in DDO. The 40 temps HPs are roughly 1.2 hits in the level 12+ content where you can actually use it, +2 to saves is not needed by a Pally, and DR5/magic is bypassed by everything but (possibly) animals at level 12+.
  

I mean seriously DEVS, can we get a little thought put into these things, I know you're a little gun shy after the Barb Crit Rage fiasco, but if you think these are even remotely what the Paladin needs, then you need to quit playing your Dwarf Barb for a bit and try playing a non-Dwarf Paladin for a bit in Gianthold and beyond.

[Borror0]

Geonis, while I agree with you, it' not by insulting the developers that we're going to get any answer.

You can demand an answer without actually calling them incompetent.

[Geonis]

Geonis, while I agree with you, it' not by insulting the developers that we're going to get any answer.

You can demand an answer without actually calling them incompetent.

I am not calling them incompetent, I basically think (and they have admitted) that they don't want to overpower another class with enhancements/spells, which I understand.

The adding of the previous spells however shows that either the people who decide what gets added are either not listening or don't play the game (as Paladins, without God mode on), possibly both.

Honestly, we are told (by the Devs) that the Paldin should be a defensive based class, that's fine if the Devs want the Paladin based this way (although there is no DnD basis for this). Then make the class based around being defensive, add spells/enhancements that point the Paladin toward this goal. We have seen several "nerfs" to the Paladin, but no definitive help for the "defensive" Paladin. I do not think the addition of the above spells will make a dent in the hole that has been dug for the Paladins, and I challenge anyone to point out otherwise.


Geo


Edit - I wrote the previous post as a point-by-point review of the spells, I simply fail to see any point to them being added. A review with a change to the type of bonus, duration per cast, etc.... could make them extremely useful. Devs need to remember that while a type of bonus not common in DnD, it can be extremely common in DDO (+4 deflection bonus is kind of rare in DnD, but a static end reward available at level 7 in DDO and randomly available at level 11).

[Vormaerin]

The whole point is to keep a balance.

Well, see, I don't see anyone objecting to boosting paladins and very few folks seriously suggesting paladins are equal to the top end characters. What I do see is a lot of your allies being rather abusive to the devs and to other posters who don't agree with the hyperbole being tossed around on the subject. And a lot of folks responding with "they aren't the greatest thing ever, but they are perfectly playable as is."

More stuff is always a good thing. It would be awesome if there was enough spells, feats, enhancements, etc that there were 20 or 30 different ways to build a particular class. What's annoying people is not proposing more stuff for the paladins (or anyone else). Its the constant haranguing to the effect that the devs are incompetent and anyone who likes any of the stuff they are making is clueless that is torquing people off. The constant chanting of "paladins suck", when as you point out above they don't. They just aren't as good as barbarians or melee rangers at the moment. Used to be the other way around, as you know. I think the devs are trying to avoid wild power swings from mod to mod. It would be nice to hear why they don't seem interested in the Turn substitution feats, certainly. It would be nice to know if they are not putting in stuff that scales to the current uberness level of the big boys because they want to claw back some of that uberness over the long term or what.

The vehemence is unwarranted and counterproductive, imho. The devs have said over and over they don't deal with that kind of posting. I know that's not you in particular, but its what floods pretty much all the paladin threads pretty quick.

[Vormaerin]

Edit - I wrote the previous post as a point-by-point review of the spells, I simply fail to see any point to them being added. A review with a change to the type of bonus, duration per cast, etc.... could make them extremely useful. Devs need to remember that while a type of bonus not common in DnD, it can be extremely common in DDO (+4 deflection bonus is kind of rare in DnD, but a static end reward available at level 7 in DDO and randomly available at level 11).

None of these spells are likely to be especially useful at cap, certainly. But I can see a lot of use for them prior to that and also for folks who aren't in the 'raid and loot run' set (which happens to be most of the folks I play with). There are a ton of spells that are useful until you get a certain piece of equipment or gain the ability to cast a higher level spell.

Stalwart Pact does look pretty dubious, but the other two will get a fair bit of use. Just not at end game where the paladin most needs help.

[Geonis]

None of these spells are likely to be especially useful at cap, certainly. But I can see a lot of use for them prior to that and also for folks who aren't in the 'raid and loot run' set (which happens to be most of the folks I play with). There are a ton of spells that are useful until you get a certain piece of equipment or gain the ability to cast a higher level spell.

Stalwart Pact does look pretty dubious, but the other two will get a fair bit of use. Just not at end game where the paladin most needs help.

I am by no means in the "raid and loot run set". I have been here since launch and still have not hit 20 runs of any raid. That being said, I see no use in any of these spells.

[Vormaerin]

You never face mummies before you have Greater Heroism for your party? Your party members have figured out how to drink the new Remove Fear potions while feared? You always have a +4 Deflection item by lvl 8? Then I suppose they are useless for you.

[Borror0]

What's annoying people is not proposing more stuff for the paladins (or anyone else).

Like this?

The constant chanting of "paladins suck", when as you point out above they don't.

You know what annoys us? People who keeps on arguing that their paladin is playable.

You know what? We stil are playing our paladin!!! We know it, so stop telling us. You're thinking we're saying they're gimped or whatsoever. Earse all you read previously, and look at what we say! You'll notice that I, and many others, are actually wanting paladins to improve. Period, that's it. Nothing else to see.

In my opinion, a lot of those that argue against us; trying to get the point understood that their paladin isn't gimped are simply not possible to accept that their character is of a weaker class. It's those people that will argue you, on and on, if they did a mistake in finding pretexts to justify themselves. It's something totally minor, but they don't want to be wrong. Same here, paladin is a weak class, but they don't want to say it out load even if they know it.

My favorite quote is "they are not weak, but they need more love". Too funny. If they need love, they are weaker!

The vehemence is unwarranted and counterproductive, imho. The devs have said over and over they don't deal with that kind of posting. I know that's not you in particular, but its what floods pretty much all the paladin threads pretty quick.

I know that, read the link I gave you above.

[Borror0]

None of these spells are likely to be especially useful at cap, certainly. But I can see a lot of use for them prior to that and also for folks who aren't in the 'raid and loot run' set (which happens to be most of the folks I play with). There are a ton of spells that are useful until you get a certain piece of equipment or gain the ability to cast a higher level spell.

Paladins pre-level 11 are alright, so anything in that area doesn't solve the issue.

Lionheart is uselss for that, because you'll mostly have GH by then.
Zeal is useless because by level cleric will have Shield of Faith, or you'll find one of the very common +4/5 Deflection item.

[DoctorWhofan]

I..

er...

well...

uhm...

(steps down from her soapbox, then sighs dramatically)

Borror0, not again!

(drags soapbox to another thread, something that will not turn into knock out argument with Borror0)

[Illuminati]

TBH, I want a Pally in all my groups for the Aura, etc. but I don't want to play mine =)

It's not that they are bad it's just sort of boring. I tried out DS/ES with a SoS (lol at these acronyms) but I wasn't feeling it. I really wish they made these work on non-evil mobs somehow and it would have probably made the difference.

[Geonis]

You never face mummies before you have Greater Heroism for your party?

Yes, but Pallys are immune to Fear at level 3, haven't faced mummies before that.

Your party members have figured out how to drink the new Remove Fear potions while feared?

No, but if they need their Fear removed, I can use a level 1 pot for no mana. The duration for this spell pretty much negates any pre-fight buffing use of it. Again (as I stated above), with a little change to the duration, it could be useful.

You always have a +4 Deflection item by lvl 8?

Yes, it's an end reward for Delera's which I have probably run at least through elite for xp by this point.

Then I suppose they are useless for you.

Yes, that's what I've said already, but with some minor tweaks, they could be useful. The spells from DnD (mostly), do not translate directly to DDO without some tweaks (damage dice, HD affected, etc...).

[Borror0]

(drags soapbox to another thread, something that will not turn into knock out argument with Borror0)

How about that one?

[Angelus_dead]

Yes, it's an end reward for Delera's which I have probably run at least through elite for xp by this point.

That's a chaotic-only item, and it is difficult for Paladins to hit the UMD requirement prior to level 8. Post-level 8 you have Chaosgarde in that slot.

[Angelus_dead]

You never face mummies before you have Greater Heroism for your party? Your party members have figured out how to drink the new Remove Fear potions while feared? You always have a +4 Deflection item by lvl 8? Then I suppose they are useless for you.

It was already explained above that paladins up to level 11 or 12 are already sufficiently powerful.

Adding abilities that come in before level 11-12 do not help the class.

[DoctorWhofan]

How about that one?

any of them!