Are paladins overpowered?!

[artvan_delet]

I'll explain it once more.

The problem with Paladins is that levels 11+ aren't good.
The help that Paladins need is to improve levels 11+ to be more worth taking.
Abilities added for low-level play before level 11 do not help the Paladin class, because they do nothing to solve the problem.

Adding low-level abilities does make Paladin a more powerful overall, but they do not help the class. Adding power is not necessarily the same as helping.

Angelus is right on here. I have a pure level 16 with over 120 raids under his belt. I absolutely regret taking levels 15 and 16 as a paladin. Should have taken fighter. Kept hoping for high level attention. DEVs keep giving paladins low level updates, and high level enhancements that cost too many action points for the value (ES 3). Much rather have fighter haste 1 and fighter str 1, tower shields, feat, etc. Should have gone 14/2 pally/fighter.

[Accelerando]

Sorry mate, but i dont see how your backing up is better.
IMO, Bards, Pure fighter, Monks, and clerics need a lot more attention then Paladins.

QFT

Bards need a low level AOE AC song +1 to party or the like, better self buffs while buffing party (i.e. Warchanter should buff you more than everyone else), perma on songs (1 at a time activatables), and more. Monks are laughable as they are, I'm not bothering with anything but the established classes until druid. Clerics need domains, especially since blade barrier nerfs. Fighters, do they even exist anymore except as splash?

Paladins? What do they really need. Mine don't need anything.

Angelus is right on here. I have a pure level 16 with over 120 raids under his belt. I absolutely regret taking levels 15 and 16 as a paladin. Should have taken fighter. Kept hoping for high level attention. DEVs keep giving paladins low level updates, and high level enhancements that cost too many action points for the value (ES 3). Much rather have fighter haste 1 and fighter str 1, tower shields, feat, etc. Should have gone 14/2 pally/fighter.

Actually I agree with you. My pure pally sits by the wayside while my 14/2 gets alot more action. Then again this is not "proof" that there is something wrong with paladins. Most classes in this game benefit greatly from a splash of something or other.

[Jondallar]

Dude have you seen Hawtty Hottpants? She's fine and she's a paladin. RAWR!

LMAO I dont know how this one slipped by me. Hawtty Hotpants is a gimp... well the build is dominant, but the playstyle is weak/noob sauce

[ChildrenofBodom]

Paladins Definately aren't fine. Actually, they suck.

I never allow more then 1 paladin in my shroud groups. More then 1 and it will take half an hour to finish beating down the portals.

I try to keep paladins out of my lfms as much as possible unless I know the person.


Actually, I try to keep out pure fighters too. In my opinion, pure fighters are just as bad as paladins.

[Accelerando]

Don't worry, I just told myself I'd ignore his posts myself. As long as you have blanked yours, it's alright.

• "Paladins are fine."
• "The best character on my server is 28 point build paladin."
• "I like Exalted Smite and Divine Sacrifice."
• "The boost we got with this mod was tremendous."

With such weak arguments, replying furthemore is a waste of time.

The day he will start backing up his claims, I will probably reply to him. However, until then, I am done replying to him. I also encourage anyone to do the same as me and simply ignore him. He is obviously trolling and any argument with him will probably be a waste of time. He has not shown himself to say why paladins are "fine" when he was given multiple occasions to.

So, Geonis, don't worry. You did the right thing by blanking your post, for as long as you don't reply to him again.

Oh yea I am such a bad guy for arguing with you and you constant complaints about one of the best classes in the game. In fact
maybe I should stop and my characters will get a boost and be even more powerful.


Lets look at my claims that I have never backed up (except in every thread you have posted complaining about this)


"Paladins are fine"

I don't see how this is so outrageous a supposition. My paladin almost NEVER dies, is always in the top ranks in kill count, never fails to crit on a 20 the rare times I am using a vorpal, rarely takes more damage than I can self manage unless someone pulls an enormous mob, can rez a whole party without boosting or swapping around items, can play backup healer when our so called tank (usually a barbarian) bites off way more than he can chew, can main tank when, well pretty much any time, is cracking 480 hp, 250 sp, can DS all day and laugh at the lashback damage, can hit orthos in the shroud elite on a 3, what the hell else could you want in a character?

"The best character on my server is 28 point build paladin."

More evasion and misquoting from you. I said one of the best, and that is hands down a fact. Very few people would argue with that statement, and those that would would only do so because of some personal problem they have with the chap. Give em a little truth serum and they will recant their negative statements guaranteed.

"I like Exalted Smite and Divine Sacrifice."

Ok so actually this is a bit off. Actually, I ******* LOVE ES and DS. If you don't, you aren't using these abilities right. Again it all comes down to your gaming skills. Not everyone can pull off using ES and DS effectively in combat. Paladins are not for children, nor are they for old guys who started gaming when the Wii came out. If you are mouse clicking on these, just give up now. If you have them hotkeyed and either one of them is ever on timer for more than 1 second (meh maybe not including ES depending how many you have and what you are fighting) give up now. If your ES and DS aren't both going off in swings 3-5 and hitting every time, give up now. You aren't fast enough to be a good paladin, sorry.

"The boost we got with this mod was tremendous."

"'Nuff Said" - Stan Lee

[Borror0]

Sorry mate, but i dont see how your backing up is better.
IMO, Bards, Pure fighter, Monks, and clerics need a lot more attention then Paladins.

Ok, I have in many threads, but it is split. I'll do a big review of all the classes, according to me. I will, however, separate spellcasters from melee classes becomes it makes the comparison a little big too hard. I hope you are fine with that. So, I hope you enjoy because this will probably take me a lot of time.

Here I go...

• Spellcasters:
  
  Anything that has a blue bar in this game as the potential to be more powerful than those that don't. Simply put, the ability to kil at range is incredibly powerful in this game. Thanks to the active combat system, a lot is based off the players reaction to the mobs. A player thus can avoid hits for as long as he can stay out of melee range. Given the AI limitations, a player can kite a mob through a Firewall or a Blade Barrier without any problem, solving a lot of the limitations that the blue bar has.
  
  
  
  1. Cleric:
     
     Yes, first position.
     
     Clerics have the power to heal themselves, and others. In this game, that alone is very powerful. Potions don't cut it since level 8ish, not everyone can UMD scrolls, even less at mid-levels. The simple fact of being able to efficiently heal youself when you get aggro, plus your teamates are enoguh to get themselves invite in the group. I don't think many people would be ready to attempt any raids without a cleric, unless it's the Titan or there is an healing bard(s) in the group.
     
     Then, if you take a look at their spell selection, you'll see how powerful it is.
     
     The most obvious one is Blade Barrier. Like I sais previously, the ability to kill without having to enter mele range is incredibly powerful : you can kill a mob without taking any damage or taking reduced damage. Unlike Firewall, I don't think that there is any mob immune to it, although I could be wrong. But even if I'd be wrong, the number of mob immune to fire is much more common in the current metagame, given how common devils and orthons. Plus, since it's a level 6 spell, Mantle of Invulnerability won't protect a mob against it.
     
     However, kiting is not dangerless. Ranged attacks can get you, so can spells, but a cleric can heal himself or mitigate damage through Protection from Energy and Resist Energy.
     
     Besides Blade Barrier, clerics don't find themselves lacking in good spells. Cometfall, Banishment, Deathward (includes Deathward, Mass), Destruction, Greater Command, Restoration (includes Greater Restoration and Restoration, Mass), Soundburst, Symbol of Fear, Symbol of Persuasion, Symbol of Stunning, etc. Clerics are clearly not a class to pity. They have a smaller mana pool, but they compensate by being able to swap spell at will, having more high level spells and to self heal.
     
     If there are any complaints about clerics, it's most likely a complaint about how healing dependant melee classes are in this game. As soon as you enter melee range, the damage climb up. Of course, high DPS melee characters will shorten the time it takes to complete a quest, but a full group of clerics will take less resources in completing any quest. Slower, probably, but less expensive for sure. Hopefuly, Heal, Mass will help with that issue.
     
     
  2. Sorcerer:
     
     Surprise for no one, they are second.
     
     Sorcerers have a a huge mana pool, which makes them better than wizard for now. However, that mostly because of the lack of good spells. A sorcerer, while he does have to sacrifice a few handy spells, does not have to make too many sacrifices. The biggest culprit is the lack of good level 8 spells. There isn't a single spell that currently makes you tell yourself "Wow!!", so you're not really missing out on anything by only having a single level 8 slot. Then, you can also blame the lack of interesting spells at lower levels. While there are a few spells you wish you could take, you're not really missing out on anything.
     
     Of course, I suspect that this will change once they increase the cap level from 16 to 18. Thee arrival of spell such as Hold Monster, Mass, Imprisonement, Wail of the Banshee, Weird and a probably a bunch of others from the Spell Compendium will make Wizard much more attracting and powerful.
     
     Lastly, their high Charisma makes them pretty skilled at UMD. A lot of them can self-heal with Heal scrolls, which makes them furthermore powerful.
     
     
  3. Wizard:
     
     Wizards rank themselves above bards for their bigger mana pool, their spell selection and their ability to change spell between quests and at shrines.
     
     Like I've said previously, the biggest problem of wizards is the lack of good spells. However, Turbine are finding ways to increase the value of high level ones. By giving mobs HP as high as they got in Module 6 & 7, they made the fast nuking sorcerer has lost a lot of efficiency and making mobs immune to fire and resitant to ice pushes that even further as it makes crowd-control much more itneresting. as you need more spells to be a good crowd-control spellcaster than a nuker. Then, high SR does the same, since sorcerers have less feats than a wizard. Plus, the addition of thre raids in two modules further increases how interesting wizards are to a party, as a sorcerer has less slots available for debuffs (and Mantle of Invulnerability totally remvoes the possibility for a sorcerer to debuff effectively).
     
     Wiards will probably get some bonus when the cap was raised, powerful level 9 spells plus an increased SP pool will play in their favor. Wziards are starting to lack less and less in SPs through a quest and have to be less and less cautious as the cap is raised, that helps them too. They clearly don't need any improvement, time will take care of it for the biggest part.
     
     
  4. Bard:
     
     Bards are the weakest spellcasters.
     
     Spellsingers simply lack the power to compete versus the others. The simple fact that they are so unpopular should speak for itself.
     Yes they do get UMD, but a sorcerer can reach the benchmarks quite easily. They have lower SP pool and less interesting spells than the others. They can heal, but not as efficiently as a cleric... and Heal, Mass might totally leave them behind as they won't be able to even scroll it since they won't be available from vendors.
     
     Against red names, all they can do is pretty much heal. Most of their good spells are enchantments, and raid and end bosses are immune to these. In fact, red and purple names are immune to to any crowd-control. So, they heal. Thankfuly, they've got access to ncie buffs like Rage, Greater Heroism, Haste, Displacement and Inspire Courage, but once the buffing stange is over... they heal, maintain Displacement and Haste on and cast songs when if needed.
     
     Even in the crowd-control department, they're not the best. No Mass Holds, no Symbols, lower DCs... it ads up.
     
     Clearly, they could use some lovin', but bard songs are enough to keep them interesting, for now.
     
     AS for Virtuoso, that was a poor idea since the very beginning. Spellsinger is simply better, on all aspects. While Enthrallment is nice, the DC isn't any higher than Fascinate and the penalties are for from outstanding. Virtuoso would make an interesting PrC, but as a PrE, it's totally uninteresting.
  
  
  
• Melee:
  
  
  
  1. Barbarian:
     
     Honestly, I don't know if I should put rangers first or barbarians.
     
     I put barbarians first 'cause of the HP, mostly. Both got insane DPS and an advantage with WoP, one from faster attack rate and the other with greater chance to land a critical. However, even if the new raids up the usefulness of Evasion, HP is still a killer for rangers. So, I'll give first place to barbarian for that but let's just say that dwarven rangers are not far behind.
     
     Barbarians are well adapted for the end game. They got low AC, but what's AC anyway? Turbine has made it so hard that it's not even worth it, except for specialised builds.. and even those builds face issues at end game. HP is the key way to survive. No matter your AC, your saves or if you got Improved Evasion... it's irrevelant. You need an amount of HP to keep alive. The problem is that the end game is balanced accordingly to the Toughness enhancements. The encounters need to be a challenge for the 500 HP dwarven fighter and the 600 HP barbarians"
     
     The problem arises when some classes got half of that, and that the game is balanced for the highest... rather than an average, or even the low average. That pushes barbarians ahead, they don't even need Toughness to get that much HP!! More APs free for their enhancements. On top of it, they have got good saves and DR which helps mitigate the damage partialy.
     
     Clearly not to pity.
     
     
  2. Ranger
     
     High DPS, greater effificency with WoP and other proc effects and Evasion. Mostly what we're looking for at end game. Furthermore, being able to cast Freedom of Movement and Protection from Energy is a great bonus. They beat the DPS of a fighter, versus any mobs, and totally owns them when it's against their Favored Enemy. Given the prevalence of Evil Outsiders at end game, their DPS is just nuts.
     
     Their only downside is their lower HP, but that's a flaw Turbine shoudl try to correct, because it affects other classes negatively.
     
     
  3. Warchanter
     
     Yes, third position. Surprised? You shouldn't. Their only problem is their low stackability.
     
     One is game breaking, further more in a raid, but a second has less benefits than a barbarian or a ranger, although taking a second isn't a bad choice.
     
     Warchanters can keep Displacement, Haste, Rage, Inspire Courage, Stoneskin and Greater Heroism on them all the time, you can even add a Fire Shield scrolls on top of it if needed. With Inspire Courage, they can reach DPS similar to one of a barbarian would withou Inspire Courage and they increase the DPS of everyone in the party. Already increadibly efficient in six-man quests, and furthermore in raids.
     
     I'll also mention Fascinate for when things just don't go the way you hoped they would...
     
     Warchanters weren't so viable pre-Module 4, but the decreased need for AC and the increased demand for DPS made them as powerful as they currently are. The warchanter helped in popularising the idea, but the build would have gotten more popular anyway with time. Also, the access to Greater Two-Weapon Fighting hlepd the class' DPS a lot.
     
     
  4. Rogue
     
     Clearly one of the hardest to play and most under-estimated class in the game.
     
     The DPS they can deal with their sneak attacks is plain nuts, high than a barbarian's! They got Improved Evasion and UMD to boot. their problem, squishiness... Thanks to the wonderful Toughness enhancements, d6 HD classes suffer a lot. They can contribute greatly, but really low HP hurts them badly. It's part of the reasons why dwarven are so popular.
     
     However, they're not easy to play at all. The compinasion of high DPS and low HP isn't a good mix, unless you're skilled. Aggro management is something really important for every rogue. The apparition of Subtle Backstabbing and then Treason-like effects surely helped. So does the change of Diplomacy to make it instant. The reduction of the cooldown from 10 to 6 seconds will help greatly too, I'm sure.
     
     
  5. Monk
     
     The new class, great class... but incomplete.
     
     When you look at the monk, or when you play one, you're amazed of what they did of the class. I hear reports from tons of friends on how much they like to play their monk. Turbine clearly suceeded in creating their newest class. However, it seems that they ran out of time on some aspects. The finishing moves clearly could use some rework. Even the stances could, a good example of that is that Wind Stance is completly overlaped by Haste. Hopefuly the fourth tier will be +30% and thus will be better than Haste, but less powerful than Tempest.
     
     Another place where they are lacking is DPS, although I understand the reason for that.
     
     You see, a monk can have an AC as high as a fighter would, but be TwF fighting whereas the fighter will be in S&B. Even if the monk had to sacrifice a lot of Str for that, the simple fact of wielding two-weapons put him ahead in DPS. So, if you allow monks to get too high DPS, they will have high DPS (even if less than a barbarian) but will have also an insane AC, insane saves, SR and Improved Evasion. Their only lacking point would be HP, but AC should compensate for that, if it doesn't, then all the defensive tanks are paying for that too. Hence the problem.
     
     They make an amazing defensive class, but as soon as you want to spec them for DPS they are lacking. Limiting a class only to AC is pretty limiting. And, even if you do decide to make of them the defensive class od DDO that will always have to rely on AC... they are lacking an AoE taunt.
     
     
  6. Fighter & paladin
     
     I put these two together, because they share too many issues.
     
     You see, both of them are classes that Turbine had designed as defensive classes. However, Module 4 was the death of mid-AC and issues have started to arise for defensive tanks altogether. The death of mid-AC that the argument "but fighters and paladins can get more AC than a barbarian" died.
     
     A fighter can no longer reach the Armor Class he needs to be hit less often, unless he goes S&B. Well, theoricly he can, it just takes a lot of raid loot (Chattering Ring and Heighten Awareness 4 brings the total to 6 unacheivable AC without raid gear) and a little of farming for the rest (+6 Dexterity item, Chaosgarde, +5 Protection item), but there is still a great sacrifice to it. And honestly, the sacrifice is not worth it. The same apply for paladin.
     
     A character focusing on AC has to sacrifice item slots for it that a characterthat does not don't. At best, a character's AC will compensate for his lower DPS. Problem is, he didn't have to sacrifice only DPS. But that's at best, step in on The Shroud on Elite and tell me how your AC fairs versus the Elite Orthon Defenders? How about the red names? And Harry? Sorry but a paladin's lower DPS is not offset by his AC. The fact that Turbine pushes the required of specialisation to obtain decent AC is insulting.
     
     More specificly, for fighters, they got lower DPS than rangers and barbarians, even while spec'd for DPS. And before someone comments about it, yes, that excludes Favored Enemy and includes Fighter Haste Boost IV!! And, before someone alsoi talks about Trip and Stunning Blow, a barbarian is +3 behind to a fighter's Trip DCs (assuming Improved Trip for only the fighter) and equal +1 ahead for Stunning Blow! They're simply lacking on anything. Turbine has recently announced a lot of feats coming shortly, so we'll see what it's all about before making more noise.
     
     As for paladins, their DPS is lacking as much.
     
     In fact, every single class got a DPS increase since Module 3.3, except fighters. Paladins got the Divine Favor nerf of Module 4.0. They also got Exalted Smite and Divine Sacrifice which I don't consider as an improvement. Actually, I consider Divine Sacrifice a step behind. As for Exalted Smite, I see it as a good idea, needing tweaking. The obvious part is shorter regen, but I think there is a little tweaking we could do to see it much better.
     
     Back to DPS, all classes have gotten a significant increase to DPS, paladins got their DPS lowered and fighters stayed the same. Rgith now, with a S&D paladin or fighter, you feel like you're hugging the mob rather than damaging him. The mobs are scaled for raging barbarians with Critical Rage II; rangers with Ram's Might, Tempest I and Favored Enemy and sorcerers, so it takes forever for a S&B character to get the mob down.
     
     Furthemore, Aura of Good is near worthless because no one but a handful of characters have AC worth mentioning, their spell selection is lacking, they lack an AoE taunt to grab aggro, which at least fighters have. Well, you can multiclass to get it, but you shouldn't have to.

So, what do you think? Anyone disagree? If so, where and why?

[Borror0]

More evasion and misquoting from you. I said one of the best, and that is hands down a fact. Very few people would argue with that statement.

Mind if I do?

It's the best character. First, that character would be better with 32 point build, if you deny that, you're lying and you'dneed a trith serum. Secondly, it's not a question of good character there but good player, try to deny that and you'll look like a fool to about everyone's eyes. I'm sure that this player is awesome whatever he plays.

If you don't, you aren't using these abilities right. Again it all comes down to your gaming skills. Not everyone can pull off using ES and DS effectively in combat. Paladins are not for children, nor are they for old guys who started gaming when the Wii came out. If you are mouse clicking on these, just give up now. If you have them hotkeyed and either one of them is ever on timer for more than 1 second (meh maybe not including ES depending how many you have and what you are fighting) give up now. If your ES and DS aren't both going off in swings 3-5 and hitting every time, give up now. You aren't fast enough to be a good paladin, sorry.

Thank you for exactly explaining the reason DS should never have been implemented. You just saved me time.

[Gunga]

Hey Borr! How are you, mate?

I think you'd be better off playing Barbarians and Clerics!

You'd be sooo happy then!

!

[Accelerando]

Mind if I do?

It's the best character. First, that character would be better with 32 point build, if you deny that, you're lying and you'dneed a trith serum. Secondly, it's not a question of good character there but good player, try to deny that and you'll look like a fool to about everyone's eyes. I'm sure that this player is awesome whatever he plays.

Yes it would be better.. as a 32 pt PALADIN.

Thank you for exactly explaining the reason DS should never have been implemented. You just saved me time.

Thank you Borror0 for finally explaining why you don't like these awesome abilities. Maybe they should make you an easy button you can put on your hotbar that sets off ES and DS at the appropriate times.

Sorry dude but there are alot of people who play DDO who are excellent gamers. The active combat system and the speed is what attracted us to this game in the first place. Thank you DEVS for giving us something else (ES and DS) to twitch over.

[Gunga]

Yes it would be better.. as a 32 pt PALADIN.



Thank you Borror0 for finally explaining why you don't like these awesome abilities. Maybe they should make you an easy button you can put on your hotbar that sets off ES and DS at the appropriate times.

Sorry dude but there are alot of people who play DDO who are excellent gamers. The active combat system and the speed is what attracted us to this game in the first place. Thank you DEVS for giving us something else (ES and DS) to twitch over.

QFT, if you think about it a bit, borr. There are other games that follow the D&D rules even more closely, and it sounds like the changes that you need to make you happy might be found there.

Just remember to smile and have a KaTet kind of day! !

[Borror0]

I think you'd be better off playing Barbarians and Clerics!

Barbarians:
Nah, too reliant on healing for me.

Clerics:
Nah... barbarians are too reliant on healing for me. Maybe the next level cap will change that.

You've got to understand that there is not only class strength that enters in the decision of how you'll build your character. I've said it many times in the class forums. A character may be the best one ever, but you mgith not like it. It's for that reason there will always be people rolling paladins and fighters, no matter how gimped they could get.

[Borror0]

Putting fighters and paladins under monks? That is the most uninformed, insincere, ridiculously silly thing I have ever seen on these forums.

No, it's not.

[Gunga]

Barbarians:
Nah, too reliant on healing for me.

Clerics:
Nah... barbarians are too reliant on healing for me. Maybe the next level cap will change that.

You've got to understand that there is not only class strength that enters in the decision of how you'll build your character. I've said it many times in the class forums. A character may be the best one ever, but you mgith not like it. It's for that reason there will always be people rolling paladins and fighters, no matter how gimped they could get.

Huh. Maybe, borr, maybe. I really am trying to understand you, really. Could it be that any class could get gimped by operator interference? The way that I see it, a Paladin is quite difficult to make superior. I believe that the devil is in the details when creating a top level pali, several of whom I am proud to know and run with. They aren't here because they are busy being superior to us. !

[Beherit_Baphomar]

I mean seriously DEVS, can we get a little thought put into these things, I know you're a little gun shy after the Barb Crit Rage fiasco, but if you think these are even remotely what the Paladin needs, then you need to quit playing your Dwarf Barb for a bit and try playing a non-Dwarf Paladin for a bit in Gianthold and beyond.

How are they supposed to do that, exactly?

What groups would they get in??

[Accelerando]

Huh. Maybe, borr, maybe. I really am trying to understand you, really. Could it be that any class could get gimped by operator interference? The way that I see it, a Paladin is quite difficult to make superior. I believe that the devil is in the details when creating a top level pali, several of whom I am proud to know and run with. They aren't here because they are busy being superior to us. !

QFT... wait not QFT I am here!
The devil is definately in the details, especially when it comes to piano lessons.

[Gunga]

I'll explain it once more.

MY problem with Paladins is that levels 11+ aren't good, TO ME.
The help that I THINK Paladins need is to improve levels 11+ to be more worth taking.
Abilities added for low-level play before level 11 do not help the Paladin class, because they do nothing to solve the problem THAT I SAY THERE IS.

Fixed that for ya there, Angel.

Have a KaTet day! !

[Coldest]

Ok, now back to Palis.

I disagree with the OP. Pali is harder to be great at, but nonetheless, in the right hands they can be great. I like DDO having classes that have a higher difficulty level of learning. Thus, I think Palis are great where they are. Give the fighters a little love maybe, not cuz they are gimp but because they are becoming boring, at least to me.

Love the new enhancement lines. It fits in with what I love about our combat system, real time twitching. I have never taken piano lessons, but after 2.5 years of DDO, yesterday I rapped out Beethoven's 5th perfectly, lol.

[Mhykke]

in the right hands they can be great.....

I think the point that Bor is making is that paladins aren't weak, but they're a weaker class. That doesn't mean that they're unplayable, or a good player wouldn't contribute to a group as a paladin. What the argument is, is put that same good player in almost any other class (I'm ignoring monks for now b/c they're just too new) and he's contributing more to the group.

[Coldest]

I think the point that Bor is making is that paladins aren't weak, but they're a weaker class. That doesn't mean that they're unplayable, or a good player wouldn't contribute to a group as a paladin. What the argument is, is put that same good player in almost any other class (I'm ignoring monks for now b/c they're just too new) and he's contributing more to the group.

Understood. And my preferance is too keep them as is. I like that they are challenging to play right, and that they take skills to be great.

[Borror0]

Understood. And my preferance is too keep them as is. I like that they are challenging to play right, and that they take skills to be great.

I see Accelerando, Gunga and you making that argument, do you guys mind elaborating? How is it a challengge to play a paladin?