Are paladins overpowered?!

[Geonis]

That's a chaotic-only item, and it is difficult for Paladins to hit the UMD requirement prior to level 8. Post-level 8 you have Chaosgarde in that slot.

Difficult, but not impossible, and honestly the spell is counter-productive. The "defensive" Paladin is going to cause CE to turn off every time they cast this (every minute). It would honestly be better to use a +3 deflection item than this spell.

[Borror0]

That's a chaotic-only item, and it is difficult for Paladins to hit the UMD requirement prior to level 8. Post-level 8 you have Chaosgarde in that slot.

I agree, but it does not make the spell any better.

[gpk]

Geonis, while I agree with you, it' not by insulting the developers that we're going to get any answer.

You can demand an answer without actually calling them incompetent.

Quite frankly this latest batch of craptastic spells is bordering on incompetence or someone's idea of a cruel joke; it shows a serious lack of , well, everything really.

I won't go into detail here as it's been said before a gazillion times and I'm still shocked at how bad the devs keep messing up with nearly all things pally.

Really if the devs get offended by peoples reactions at this point they have noone to blame but themselves; their choices and reasoning are just infuriatingly bad.

[Vormaerin]

It was already explained above that paladins up to level 11 or 12 are already sufficiently powerful.

Adding abilities that come in before level 11-12 do not help the class.

Yes, they do. They just don't address the issue that most of the complaints relate to. That's not the same thing.

[Vormaerin]

Yes, but Pallys are immune to Fear at level 3, haven't faced mummies before that.

No, but if they need their Fear removed, I can use a level 1 pot for no mana. The duration for this spell pretty much negates any pre-fight buffing use of it. Again (as I stated above), with a little change to the duration, it could be useful.

Yeah, the paladin is immune to fear. His party members are not. I see folks cowering facing the mummies in the Necropolis series all the time. This is the only source of fear immunity prior to lvl 11 or so, isn't it? The buffing argument is a little weak considering all the other extremely short duration buff spells that folks use regularly. Granted, you can't buff the entire party with this in a timely fashion, so that's kind of a drag. Both these spells would benefit substantially from a somewhat longer duration. And zeal would be actually useful at high level if it was something other than deflection AC. I'd certainly welcome those changes.

But acting like the spells are worthless as is just weakens your argument, because the folks you are trying to convince are not going to say "hmm, yeah, it should be better". They are going to say "its not worthless, you can do this, that, or the other thing with it". Overstating your case just gives the other guy a free strawman to knock down instead of listening to your point.

[Vormaerin]

Like this?

I know that, read the link I gave you above.

Yes, Borror0, I know you are not part of the problem crowd on this topic. I've been quite clear about that. Sadly, there are a number of other prolific posters with views similar to yours that are. They are the ones with the vitriol and the exaggerated cases that result in the equally pointless counter posts you just complained of. That's why you are getting afflicted with my replies instead of them (replying to them is pointless).

[Angelus_dead]

Yes, they do. They just don't address the issue that most of the complaints relate to. That's not the same thing.

I'll explain it once more.

The problem with Paladins is that levels 11+ aren't good.
The help that Paladins need is to improve levels 11+ to be more worth taking.
Abilities added for low-level play before level 11 do not help the Paladin class, because they do nothing to solve the problem.

Adding low-level abilities does make Paladin a more powerful overall, but they do not help the class. Adding power is not necessarily the same as helping.

[Borror0]

Yes, Borror0, I know you are not part of the problem crowd on this topic. I've been quite clear about that. Sadly, there are a number of other prolific posters with views similar to yours that are.

So, protesters are morons... because there was a guy that showed up in a protest for peace with a gun and shot in the air, causing chaos?

[Geonis]

Yeah, the paladin is immune to fear. His party members are not. I see folks cowering facing the mummies in the Necropolis series all the time. This is the only source of fear immunity prior to lvl 11 or so, isn't it? The buffing argument is a little weak considering all the other extremely short duration buff spells that folks use regularly. Granted, you can't buff the entire party with this in a timely fashion, so that's kind of a drag. Both these spells would benefit substantially from a somewhat longer duration. And zeal would be actually useful at high level if it was something other than deflection AC. I'd certainly welcome those changes.

But acting like the spells are worthless as is just weakens your argument, because the folks you are trying to convince are not going to say "hmm, yeah, it should be better". They are going to say "its not worthless, you can do this, that, or the other thing with it". Overstating your case just gives the other guy a free strawman to knock down instead of listening to your point.

This is not really the only source of fear immunity prior to level 11. At level 9, Wizards and Sorcs become able to scroll Greater Hero via Caster Level check (a 4 for a Wiz or a 6 for Sorcs on a d20). I would much rather cough up a little cash for a few scrolls (with a duration of 11 minutes), than deal with the duration/number of casts needed hassle of this spell. Saying it might be usable for a miniscule portion of the population, does not mean it is useful.

Arguing the semantics of useless vs. usable by less than 5% of the population, is a waste of my time and (I hope) yours.

Again, with some modifications, these spells could be useful, but straight ports from DnD to DDO need to be examined prior to implementation.

Things that are currently being worked on also include:

Zeal
Paladin 2
Duration: 1 minute. (Swift casting, like Close Wounds.)
Benefit: Grants the Paladin a +4 deflection bonus to armor class and increases their movement speed.

Lionheart
Paladin 1
Duration: 24 seconds plus 6 per caster level.
Benefit: Imbues a single ally with great bravery, making them immune to fear.

Stalwart Pact
Cleric 5, Paladin 4
Benefit: Grants the target 5 hit points for every 2 caster levels, a +2 luck bonus to saving throws, and damage reduction 5/Magic, if the target of the spell falls below 50% hit points.

My suggestions are:

Zeal
Paladin 2
Duration: 1 minute. (Swift casting, like Close Wounds.)
Benefit: Grants the Paladin a +4 deflection bonus to armor class and increases their movement speed.

Change bonus type to Sacred, duration to 10secs/level. The speed bonus needs to be defined and noted if it stacks with Haste. If it does stack, then 10-20% is plenty ( I suggest 15% myself, or have it start at 5% and increase with level). If not, then it needs to be at least30%, or start at 20% and increase 5% every 5 levels.



Lionheart
Paladin 1
Duration: 24 seconds plus 6 per caster level.
Benefit: Imbues a single ally with great bravery, making them immune to fear.

I would change this to affect anyone currently affected by the Paladns aura. That would make it effective, and the duration could stay the same. It also keeps the aura (something the Devs seem to want to use more) involved. The duration would be fine then, but with the speed of combat in DDO, to cast this more than once would be a pain.



Stalwart Pact
Cleric 5, Paladin 4
Benefit: Grants the target 5 hit points for every 2 caster levels, a +2 luck bonus to saving throws, and damage reduction 5/Magic, if the target of the spell falls below 50% hit points.

The number of Hps needs to be changed to scale with DDO HP inflation, probably changing it to 5HP/level should be enough. The Luck bonus to saves is more for Clerics than Pallys, it could probably stay the same (one thought would be to make 1's not auto failure while this spell is active, but it is not needed). The DR is insufficient with the Monty Hall loot around here, change it to 5/- or 5/evil, possibly even bump the number based on level.


Those changes would make these spells relevant. Again however, the issue isn't really whther these spells are useful or not, the issue is we are asking for high level Paladin help, and we get 3 spells? Only one of which is used at higher level, and is arguably the least useful (effectively negating 1.2 hits and that's it).



Edit: Another thought I have been having, considering the Pally is supposed to be "Defensive focused", how about Pally spells don't cause CE to turn off? Something I don't think would be overpowered at all, but would definitely be a boon to the Pally Tanks.

[Borror0]

Quite frankly this latest batch of craptastic spells is bordering on incompetence or someone's idea of a cruel joke

I agree with that feeling, and you know very well.

I'm saying that we should try to get him down here and talk, rather than insulting him. That's all. Cooperation is needed. We keep on sugestion spells, and they get ignored. Why? How do you disagree with us, Eladrin? What, exactly do you fear? Because, it's important for us to know. If you've got your idea, fine with us... but we need to know what it is to keep our suggestions revelant.

And zeal would be actually useful at high level if it was something other than deflection AC.

If it was something other than Deflection, it'd be a bad idea also.

But acting like the spells are worthless as is just weakens your argument, because the folks you are trying to convince are not going to say "hmm, yeah, it should be better". They are going to say "its not worthless, you can do this, that, or the other thing with it". Overstating your case just gives the other guy a free strawman to knock down instead of listening to your point.

They are worthless, as they don't address the issue, at all.
It's not that they could be better, it's that they don't solve anything at all.

Vorm, wanna something ironic? You are the one who say that some of us are too aggressive, but you come down here and knock on us. What you're doing seems, at best, to be like waving a steak in front of a dog that has been starving for days. You should try to understand our point of view a little, and you'll see why we say those spells are useless.

Yes, they have a use... but they are useless at end game, where the issue is and the complaints come from!!

[Venar]

The paladin suffers mainly from the lack of need of his skills. A few points of AC, or a few extra saves didnt help much.
This is changing.
Have you run the 2 new raids?
What do you need? High Saves. High AC. The ability to Rebuff. Good Weapons. Support. Crazy fast healing. And it makes a difference. Putting your main aggro tank on Horned devil over 65 AC will be a raid-breaker. Ensuring the roaming party in Hound does not get mindblasted/dominated is huge.


I think having a guy that gives the party +4 AC, +3 all Saves, +9 concentration, Death Ward, Protection evil, Remove Curse, Cure Serious Wound, Rez/fast heal, and still able to get out it's shiny +5 holy silver weapon and smite every 3 seconds for an extra 9d6 damage with extra criticals... is a nice guy to have along.

[Hvymetal]

The paladin suffers mainly from the lack of need of his skills. A few points of AC, or a few extra saves didnt help much.
This is changing.
Have you run the 2 new raids?
What do you need? High Saves. High AC. The ability to Rebuff. Good Weapons. Support. Crazy fast healing. And it makes a difference. Putting your main aggro tank on Horned devil over 65 AC will be a raid-breaker. Ensuring the roaming party in Hound does not get mindblasted/dominated is huge.


I think having a guy that gives the party +4 AC, +3 all Saves, +9 concentration, Death Ward, Protection evil, Remove Curse, Cure Serious Wound, Rez/fast heal, and still able to get out it's shiny +5 holy silver weapon and smite every 3 seconds for an extra 9d6 damage with extra criticals... is a nice guy to have along.

Probablly one of the main reasons I don't bring out my Paladin, nothing says thsi character is fun and/or usefull more than being reduced to a walking party buff.......

[eonfreon]

Probablly one of the main reasons I don't bring out my Paladin, nothing says thsi character is fun and/or usefull more than being reduced to a walking party buff.......

Yeah cuz that's the role of the Wizard and Bard. Who wants haste, CC, buffs, and resists?

[Accelerando]

I am so sick of you two whining and complaining.

Paladins don't need more spells.

Paladins are not "not fine"

Paladins are not a "support class"

Paladins are not "underpowered"

If you are still having problems with your Paladin I posit that you suck at this game.

The boost we got with this mod was tremendous. Appreciate it.

If you don't like your character or the class, delete it, and stop posting about it.

If you really like paladin's, roll a good one, or learn how to use hotkeys/a gamepad/ take piano lessons so your fingers move faster... do something, anything but continually post about how you are underpowered.

Above all, for the love of god, STOP WHINING!

[Geonis]

I am so sick of you two whining and complaining.

Paladins don't need more spells.

Paladins are not "not fine"

Paladins are not a "support class"

Paladins are not "underpowered"

If you are still having problems with your Paladin I posit that you suck at this game.

The boost we got with this mod was tremendous. Appreciate it.

If you don't like your character or the class, delete it, and stop posting about it.

If you really like paladin's, roll a good one, or learn how to use hotkeys/a gamepad/ take piano lessons so your fingers move faster... do something, anything but continually post about how you are underpowered.

Above all, for the love of god, STOP WHINING!

Edit: Nothing constructive, nothing to back up your position, nothing worthwhile to say at all.

Edit 2: To remove response that may or may not get a thread locked.

Apologies Borr, I don't want to get your thread locked, but when folks just wing by drop some name calling and keep moving, it annoys me badly.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Please, rank me every from 1 to 10, all the classes. One being the most powerful, 10 being the least.

Done not factor only DPS, but all other bonuses. Elaborate and tell me why. Thank you.

What are you a teacher assiging hw? lol

[Borror0]

What are you a teacher assiging hw? lol

Nope, but what is the point of saying something without backing up their claims?

If paladins are fine, then tell me which class is the weakest, which is the strongest and why. (Perfect balance does not exist.) Why would any paladin "love" make them overpowered? Because that's the question, you know. If you don't want paladins to receive attnetion, then tell me what class it should be and why.

I have stated my reasons over and over again on these forums.

I'd like someone to tell me theirs, maybe I'm wrong but to be wrong I'd like to be pointed out why. You're never going to convince anyone by making unbacked claims. If paladins are fine, then tell me what class is not. Perfect balance is impossible, and if it would be, it would be broken by the following Module. Developers will always add new content in the form of spells, enhancements and feats. It's just a matter of picking who gets what this Module. They will always aim the the weakest or most unpopular classes because they are the one that needs that help, whereas the most powerful classes might get overpowered if given attention.

I'm thinking I'm superior, or whatsoever, but I'm tired of people saying "Paladins are fine." everytime I post. If they are, then please tell me why, tell me what class is more powerful than them, which are weaker, which you would like to improve if you where at Turbine and why you would improve that class. Give me numbers, or at least refer to class feats, enhancements and spells and explain me how they perform better in the metagame than other classes, or how certain classes perform worse than paladins.

Otherwise, we're going no where. Base yourself on facts.

[Accelerando]

Edit: Nothing constructive, nothing to back up your position, nothing worthwhile to say at all.

Edit 2: To remove response that may or may not get a thread locked.

Apologies Borr, I don't want to get your thread locked, but when folks just wing by drop some name calling and keep moving, it annoys me badly.

I am not calling anyone names.

These repeated threads whining and complaining about Paladins are NOT CONSTRUCTIVE

I back up my position with the fact that one of the best characters on my server is a 28 pt paladin, built at headstart, and an elf
to boot. Then again Goodwin doesn't suck at this game so its not hard for him to stay competitive. Church.

*edit Ok i will give you this much. Paladins are not *easy* to play. In fact they are difficult to play, which I am thinking is the main reason certain people
are constantly whining and crying about them.

[Borror0]

Apologies Borr, I don't want to get your thread locked, but when folks just wing by drop some name calling and keep moving, it annoys me badly.

Don't worry, I just told myself I'd ignore his posts myself. As long as you have blanked yours, it's alright.

It's not like he had formulated logic arguments to refute my points. The closest he has come to looks like:

• "Paladins are fine."
• "The best character on my server is 28 point build paladin."
• "I like Exalted Smite and Divine Sacrifice."
• "The boost we got with this mod was tremendous."

With such weak arguments, replying furthemore is a waste of time.

The day he will start backing up his claims, I will probably reply to him. However, until then, I am done replying to him. I also encourage anyone to do the same as me and simply ignore him. He is obviously trolling and any argument with him will probably be a waste of time. He has not shown himself to say why paladins are "fine" when he was given multiple occasions to.

So, Geonis, don't worry. You did the right thing by blanking your post, for as long as you don't reply to him again.

[Venar]

Sorry mate, but i dont see how your backing up is better.
IMO, Bards, Pure fighter, Monks, and clerics need a lot more attention then Paladins.