Are paladins overpowered?!

[Yaga_Nub]

lol Yaga .

Like I said before bro, I think pallys are in a pretty good spot right now.

The use of vorpals as favored weapons vs trash mobs has pretty much negated the DPS disadvantage. Higher AC and saves, + self healing and neg status removal counts for a lot more now. Spammed ES,DS,ES with a +5 holy burst weapon of choice, better saves, self healing, and neg status removal pretty much owns beholders and does awesome burst damage on bosses.

It'll be interesting to see weather the current trend of content continues, and seeing as how next mod is on the Devil's home plane, I'm not seeing it not doing so, I think things may be pretty good for pallys from here on out.

I love pallys. I'm about to create a new one once I get back from vacation. TWF of course, screw AC, I like the pain.

EDIT: I actually think I'll be running around with a 54 AC that could go as high as 65 with buffs while dual wielding so take that suckas!

[Twerpp]

I love pallys. I'm about to create a new one once I get back from vacation. TWF of course, screw AC, I like the pain.

Nice, if your ES/DS is on a fully twf spec pally, will it proc on both hits? Tastey!

[Anastasios]

Nice, if your ES/DS is on a fully twf spec pally, will it proc on both hits? Tastey!

Kind of like the piercing spec'd dual deathnip pure Pally that will be running around Argo soon...I called it first man lol (well he is lvl 7 as we speak) and yes, if you smite on the right swing you will proc both hits.

[Yaga_Nub]

Nice, if your ES/DS is on a fully twf spec pally, will it proc on both hits? Tastey!

It should proc on both hits.

[Yaga_Nub]

Kind of like the piercing spec'd dual deathnip pure Pally that will be running around Argo soon...I called it first man lol (well he is lvl 7 as we speak)

That's cool. I'm going with dual greensteel rapiers or POSSIBLY with dual greensteel heavy picks.

[Borror0]

Agreed. But it's still there.

You should fix flaw, not make workarounds.

Nope. Just the standard rage. That's 2 points lower. Paladin can use everything else.

Wrong, you can't use CE while raged.

But the point is Borr, they don't have access to other enhancements to boost DPS like every other melee.

Which is why they should, doesn't need to be DPS. Can be ways to increase their survivability too.

But it allows them to truly excell at the one thing they excell at. Isn't that what you've been asking for? That pallys stop being " jack of all trades " and actually have a specialty?

I have never wished for paladins to be best at AC, I said best at survival. I never meant to pigeonhole them into AC, main reason is that AC gear is not so easy to come by. For you and I, yes. We've been around for quite a while. (And even there, there are limis. Blazer is at his 30ish Titan run and has yet to get a Chattering Ring. We both know 3 AC is a lot already.) But for new players, it's ot easy at all.

If you're talking to me about bonuses that stacks with everything we've seen so far, I will oppose. Now, if you want to talk to me about making them less gear dependant, I'd be more incline to listen. Give me Insight bonuses, or Natural Armor Bonus, I'd be interested in that, but if I will always oppose to stacking AC bonus like untyped, or Dodge and I will oppose to Sacred bonuses for as long as therewould b no way for other classes to et an equivalent Sacred bonus to AC. (Except if they remove Bulark of Good, then I'd be ready to give them Silverbeard in exchange.)

Why not allow incitative for paladins to be ThF, TwF or S&B? Rather than pigonholing them into S&B.

[Borror0]

I love pallys. I'm about to create a new one once I get back from vacation. TWF of course, screw AC, I like the pain.

Nice, if your ES/DS is on a fully twf spec pally, will it proc on both hits? Tastey!

It should proc on both hits.

See? That's why I'm saying to not pigeonhole them into AC.

[Yaga_Nub]

See? That's why I'm saying to not pigeonhole them into AC.

That's right. Don't pigeonhole me because I get pretty mean and nasty when I'm backed into a pigeonhole.

[Borror0]

That's right. Don't pigeonhole me because I get pretty mean and nasty when I'm backed into a pigeonhole.

LOL

[llevenbaxx]

See? That's why I'm saying to not pigeonhole them into AC.

Yup, this is important so as to keep this game as D&D3.5 as possible, not some substandard or crappy MMO. Character customization isnt this class is this, this class is this and dont dare bothering to do anything different. There should be a certain amount of flexibility in ALL the classes that lets you lean them in w/e direction the player chooses. I would support a restructuring of AC(possibly with a look at the way mobs attack(static BAB)) to make different levels of AC work to varying degrees of success.

I dont think we will see such sweeping changes at this point though, I fear Turbine has pretty much trashed the way AC works to FUBAR level.

Plopping some more AC on paladins is a cheap fix that only further hurts the overall state of AC in this game for the reasons already explained. It is an MMO type fix for an MMO type problem i spose.

Its sounds like many in this thread will enjoy 4.0 very much.

[Gunga]

I have never wished for paladins to be best at AC, I said best at survival.

They already are the best suited class for survival. If the AC bulwork gave twice the current AC bonus at the same ap cost, it would make ac more relevant at higher levels not only for the pali but everyone fighting with him. If you were going to get an extra 10 ac if you had a pali with you, would'nt you make sure to bring him along for the new raids?

Why not allow incitative for paladins to be ThF, TwF or S&B? Rather than pigonholing them into S&B.

Well they can, but it would really bite into the feat selection...

[Holgar]

What penalties do heavy armor bring to this game that aren't also shared by medium or light armor?

I should have included Medium Armor in this, because I think Heavy and Medium Armor both have some strong penalties, in particular to their inability to work with Evasion, and their strong penalties to Max. Dex Bonus and physical Skills (Jump, Balance, etc.). Characters who base their AC around magical bracers do not have these penalties at all, and those in light armor have much smaller penalties.

Thanks,

Holgar

[Twerpp]

They already are the best suited class for survival. If the AC bulwork gave twice the current AC bonus at the same ap cost, it would make ac more relevant at higher levels not only for the pali but everyone fighting with him. If you were going to get and extra 10 ac if you had a pali with you, would'nt you make sure to bring him along for the new raids?



Well they can, but it would really bite into the feat selection...

Yep, but I still wouldnt invite him to the afterparty.

[Gunga]

Yup, this is important so as to keep this game as D&D3.5 as possible, not some substandard or crappy MMO. Character customization isnt this class is this, this class is this and dont dare bothering to do anything different. There should be a certain amount of flexibility in ALL the classes that lets you lean them in w/e direction the player chooses. I would support a restructuring of AC(possibly with a look at the way mobs attack(static BAB)) to make different levels of AC work to varying degrees of success.

I dont think we will see such sweeping changes at this point though, I fear Turbine has pretty much trashed the way AC works to FUBAR level.

Plopping some more AC on paladins is a cheap fix that only further hurts the overall state of AC in this game for the reasons already explained. It is an MMO type fix for an MMO type problem i spose.

Its sounds like many in this thread will enjoy 4.0 very much.

Gloom and doom and Scare Tactics.

Everything's gonna be ok, man. Sip a cup of tea and relax yourself.

It's appropriate that the party gets cut through by the elite orthons in hound. It would be equally appropriate if the average melee 50s ac was now an average 60s ac thanks to a bulwork adjustment/ac boost for palis. This would not change the game for the worse, homogenize all classes or turn DDO into a crappy MMO.

[Holgar]

I would also like to add, for the record, that the Paladin is my favorite class to play in the game. To me, they are best at soloing and do a lot to help a party even at the upper levels.

When we are talking about balance (which made me suggest the AC boost), I am talking performance in the top end content (Pit Fiend battle, new raids, etc.). In that scenario, the barbarian is the king due to high HP and DPS. The Fighter does well (but could do better) to compete, and the Pally does okay, but it would be great if his self-healing were supplemented with getting hit less often.

In a normal quest, my pallies are never diminished in being an equal addition to the party (and I sometimes even outkill barbarians, especially when there is no healbot cleric in the party to keep them up and running). And I am by no means an uber player with uber loot. But I do feel the sting a bit in that upper endgame content.

Thanks,

Holgar

[Borror0]

They already are the best suited class for survival.

Not against mobs with high to-hit.
Not against fireballs, unless you grab Evasion on the way.
Not compared to a battle cleric...

Well, you get the picture?

If the AC bulwork gave twice the current AC bonus at the same ap cost, it would make ac more relevant at higher levels not only for the pali but everyone fighting with him. If you were going to get an extra 10 ac if you had a pali with you, would'nt you make sure to bring him along for the new raids?

Nope, that would just mean anything other AC tank would be 4 AC points behind anyone.

Who would bring them along? Who would need AC? About any AC tank by then would be paladins... if AC tanks are not totally gimped by then.

When we are talking about balance (which made me suggest the AC boost), I am talking performance in the top end content (Pit Fiend battle, new raids, etc.). In that scenario, the barbarian is the king due to high HP and DPS. The Fighter does well (but could do better) to compete, and the Pally does okay, but it would be great if his self-healing were supplemented with getting hit less often.

In a normal quest, my pallies are never diminished in being an equal addition to the party (and I sometimes even outkill barbarians, especially when there is no healbot cleric in the party to keep them up and running). And I am by no means an uber player with uber loot. But I do feel the sting a bit in that upper endgame content.

We agree on that, but I disagree to say an AC boost is the way to go.

As I've said before, if Turbine would Harry to hit us less often...

[bandyman1]

Sorry Borr....but I just can't agree with you.

The minute you nerf AC ( the one place paladins and fighters truly shine ) so that every class can gain the same AC across the board, is the minute paladins and fighters will die in DDO.

You're right that the raging barb couldn't use CE...but then again, the barb has DR, uncanny dodge, and speed....making his defense about equal to the CE paladins, assuming his AC was only -7 below the pally. Add in his 40% ( or more ) higher DPS, and which toon would you rather be playing in that scenario?

Your asking for far more than a few spells, and a scale back on AC mods and mob to-hit. You're asking for a complete restructuring of the melee game across the board in order to balance such a thing. They simply put, don't have the resources bro. Hell, we barely get playable fresh content in a timely manner as it is.

So, I'm going to have to say " No nerf " to AC. And, I'd actually be behind increasing the AC margin for defensive classes.

[Borror0]

And, I'd actually be behind increasing the AC margin for defensive classes.

Even if they don't nerf, increasing AC remains an a bad idea. Where would it lead?

[bandyman1]

Even if they don't nerf, increasing AC remains an a bad idea. Where would it lead?

But, I didn't say increasing AC. I said increasing the margin for defensive classes ( by which I mean fighters and paladins ).

By giving them more options for higher AC, which they can use to gain the ACs they have now easier than it currently is, or continue to sacrifice for truly awesome ACs.

This is not something I feel the other melee classes need. They already have their bonuses. Defensive melees should be able to excel at defense, just as DPS melees excel at damage per second. Certainly, the end-game should reflect that.

Barbs and rangers should be getting hit like they are right now, to balance the sheer amount of damage they can dish out in turn.

By contrast, a defensive tank should feel that his defense is just as vital to the party's success, as the raging barbs DPS.

2 different approaches to the same problem.

I see the value of a defensive tank right now. But I think some of the " SHINY-BIG-RED-NUMBERS " crowd ( and I'm not saying you're a part of that group Borr ) need some " oomph " behind AC to be able to notice a difference.

[Inspire]

Wrong, you can't use CE while raged.

True, However Every Barbarian Worth His Salt Wears Madstone Boots, The % To Have It Cast On You Without Your Consent Is A Sure Thing In A Head On Fight.

Paladins Often Do Not Equip These Boots As They Cannot Use Divine Favor While Under Madstone Rage.

Anyways The +2Ac From Madstone Negates The -2 From Barbarian Rage... -2 From The Rage Spell, Would Have To Be Used As A Clicky/Potion Or Cast On To The Barbarian Unknowingly So This IMO Will Not Apply.

Summary:
-5Ac, Not -7Ac... Madstone Boots Effect* Goes Off Far Too Much To Be Left Out.