Possible Bug: No Ki generated unless base damage dealt > 0

[Zaodon]

I was fighting the Ghostly Skeletons in Deleras Tomb (requires Good-aligned weapon to do damage) using the Lightning Rod (staff from VoN 4, +1 Shock essentially, not Good-aligned).

My damage was always a yellow "0" + a red "1-6" for the lightning damage.
However, no Ki was generated for my hits, not even in Fire Stance.

Is it a bug that Ki is only generated when a Monk's base damage (the primary number) is >0?
Are monks only supposed to generate Ki on dealing non-0 damage, instead of on hit?

Thanks.

[KristovK]

Works that way with any mob that you do 0 base physical damage on, no base physical damage = no Ki.

[Zaodon]

Works that way with any mob that you do 0 base physical damage on, no base physical damage = no Ki.

Thanks for that, I edited my post. Sure would love to get a Dev to answer this one.

People are already seeing some underpowering of Monks - to not get Ki unless we bypass DR is just a flaw, IMHO.

[KristovK]

It's not underpowering the Monks, it's pretty much how most things work in DDO, no base physical damage = no special weapon attack effects, which is what Ki is. Get a PG quarterstaff or kama, or flametouched iron kama, you'll do full damage to the ghostly skeletons and get Ki for hitting them. Outside of those, not really had this be an issue to date, even hitting the Renderers in Co6, I was able to do enough physical damage that I got Ki, despite their DR and me not having PG or Cold Iron to use on them.

[Zaodon]

It's not underpowering the Monks, it's pretty much how most things work in DDO, no base physical damage = no special weapon attack effects, which is what Ki is. Get a PG quarterstaff or kama, or flametouched iron kama, you'll do full damage to the ghostly skeletons and get Ki for hitting them. Outside of those, not really had this be an issue to date, even hitting the Renderers in Co6, I was able to do enough physical damage that I got Ki, despite their DR and me not having PG or Cold Iron to use on them.

Monks should not have to deal positive damage to get Ki. It makes sense that Wounding requires that, but, for example, Disrupting, Banishing, Smiting, etc. do not require that I do >0 damage to function. In fact, Wounding, Enfeebling and Maladriot are the only effects that don't trigger unless you do damage, and that is because they do stat damage. Ki isn't damage of any kind, its a focusing of the Monks internal power. It should be gained on attack that hits, regardless of damage done.

I view this as a critical bug, but I want to get a Dev response.

[KristovK]

Seems like it's working as intended to me, but that's only because it makes sense that non-damaging attacks shouldn't have a Ki return.

[Angelus_dead]

Monks should not have to deal positive damage to get Ki.

Wrong. They should have to do some damage.

Otherwise they could have infinite Ki by attacking a monster whose DR they can't (like for example something hit with Flesh to Stone).

[Zaodon]

Wrong. They should have to do some damage.

Otherwise they could have infinite Ki by attacking a monster whose DR they can't (like for example something hit with Flesh to Stone).

You mean max Ki, not infinite Ki. And what, pray tell, would they do with it? Oh, I know. Every time they accumulate 5 Ki, they would use an elemental attack, slowly widdling down the monster.

Seems the way it should work, to me.

[Angelus_dead]

You mean max Ki, not infinite Ki. And what, pray tell, would they do with it? Oh, I know. Every time they accumulate 5 Ki, they would use an elemental attack, slowly widdling down the monster.

They'd heal themselves and the party to full.
Then they'd refill Ki, go kill some monsters with a spam of all their special attacks.
Then they run back to the stoned mob and refill the Ki again.

[Zaodon]

They'd heal themselves and the party to full.
Then they'd refill Ki, go kill some monsters with a spam of all their special attacks.
Then they run back to the stoned mob and refill the Ki again.

I meant to say, what would they do in actual DDO, not in "make pretend DDO where the other tanks don't destroy the stoned mob in 2.1 seconds".

[Film]

Some guildies and I had a debate during a Delera's run the other night. The monk class is required to be lawful good. They specialize in unarmed attacks using their hands and feet as weapons. Therefore, their hands and feet should be treated as lawful good weapons which should bypass the ghostly skeletons DR/-.

Easy solutions have been provided to overcome the DR regardless, but just a thought!

[Lithic]

Some guildies and I had a debate during a Delera's run the other night. The monk class is required to be lawful good. They specialize in unarmed attacks using their hands and feet as weapons. Therefore, their hands and feet should be treated as lawful good weapons which should bypass the ghostly skeletons DR/-.

Easy solutions have been provided to overcome the DR regardless, but just a thought!

Monks can be lawfull good, lawfull neutral, or (in PnP at least) lawfull evil. At a higher level, their hands count as Magic, Lawfull and Adamantine for the purpose of bypassing damage resistance.

[Film]

Interesting! I was unable to choose Lawful Neutral during creation as only Lawful Good was available. I was aware of the PnP rules but did not think DDO was following. Thank you for the info!

[bobbryan2]

You shouldn't gain ki unless you do some damage.

But I would like to see you gain ki if you do any damage at all. I had to use +1 acid handwraps on all those skellies.... so it meant I was killing them in droves, but never got any ki from it.

Wish they would do a check for any damage at all.

As an interesting point, you do continue to get HP if you put an FOL on the enemy and can't bypass its DR.

[In_Like_Flynn]

No Damage, no ki;
No Damage, no ki;
No Damage, no ki;
No Damage, no ki;

Said - said - said: I remember when we used to fight
In the giantish hold of Stormcleave,
Oba - obaserving the minotaurs - yeah!
As they would combat with the good toons in our group.
Good monks we have, oh, good monks we have lost
Along the way.
In this online game, you cant forget the rules;
So dry your tears, I seh. Yeah!

No Damage, no ki;
No Damage, no ki;
ere, little monkling, don't shed no tears:
No Damage, no ki;

[Lifespawn]

They'd heal themselves and the party to full.
Then they'd refill Ki, go kill some monsters with a spam of all their special attacks.
Then they run back to the stoned mob and refill the Ki again.

cmon who would actually do this? maybe for 1 encounter that was close and thats it?

you should gain ki if you do any damage atall even if base is 0 because you are not only making contact but causing some form of damage.

[Angelus_dead]

you should gain ki if you do any damage atall even if base is 0 because you are not only making contact but causing some form of damage.

Why should making "contact" give me Ki?

[bobbryan2]

Why should making "contact" give me Ki?

Why should 'anything' give you ki?

What even 'is' ki in the first place?

Clearly you can gain ki while meditating and simply clearing your mind. You can gain ki while engaging in combat and doing damage. I don't see the fundamental difference between fighting and gaining ki and doing damage and gaining ki.

Admittedly, from a gameplay perspective, it would be a bad idea to turn things like ghostly skeletons into ki battery rechargers.. but it's silly to argue it from a 'make sense' perspective as well.

[Turial]

cmon who would actually do this? maybe for 1 encounter that was close and thats it?

you should gain ki if you do any damage atall even if base is 0 because you are not only making contact but causing some form of damage.

I would...And prior to the change to the torc many casters would let them selves be beat on in shield block mode to gain back sp.

Its not you causing the damage its the enchantment placed on the handwraps. If the game allowed for 0 damage to let Ki build it would generate issues because someone would figure out a stasis build and thats a bad thing. (stasis builds are typically defined as characters that leave encounters with more resources then when they entered the encounter and by resources we are talking sp, hp, ki, etc.)

[salmag]

Monks should not have to deal positive damage to get Ki. It makes sense that Wounding requires that, but, for example, Disrupting, Banishing, Smiting, etc. do not require that I do >0 damage to function. In fact, Wounding, Enfeebling and Maladriot are the only effects that don't trigger unless you do damage, and that is because they do stat damage. Ki isn't damage of any kind, its a focusing of the Monks internal power. It should be gained on attack that hits, regardless of damage done.

I view this as a critical bug, but I want to get a Dev response.

Ki should not have to be gained by fighting. Ki should be gained by NOT fighting - fitting more with the pacifistic nature of monks - and by meditating. DDO incorporates it completely wrong. It should start out maxed, then get used up as your character fights. When your character stands still not doing anything, i.e. focusing, Ki should slowly begin to increase. This would also help with finishing moves, since you would have the available Ki to actually land a finishing move or special attack.

STOP THE ZERGING MONKS. PLEASE IMPLEMENT KI PROPERLY.

Just my 2cps.

Oh, and yes, I do have a monk character. At the moment he is level 5.