handwraps vs. TWF

[avatar28]

okay, i'm a little confused here.

Monks were originally planned (PnP) to have multiple attacks per round while unarmed or using monk weapons. I understand that flurry of blows is totally ****, and only increases to hit and not # of attacks. Do monks have to take TWF,ITWF in order to benefit from extra attacks per round while using kamas or unarmed?

If so, I think that is total bs that a monk has to waste feats choosing a feat to enable him to make extra attacks per round. So to sum it up, a ranger who has GTWF would attack more times per round then an unarmed monk who never took the TWF line?

[Angelus_dead]

Do monks have to take TWF,ITWF in order to benefit from extra attacks per round while using kamas or unarmed?

Monks who want DPS need to get the TWF feats and use kamas. TWF will not work with punching and kicking, meaning at the high end monks should be using weapons (unless they're planning for Stunning Fist).

This is amplified because you can get Green Steel kamas, but not handwraps.

[creithne]

Out of curiosity, since I don't really play PnP, is that how it is there too? Monks basically should be wielding (monk)weapons for greatest effectiveness in combat, and unarmed combat is pretty much useless in comparison?

[Rameses]

Monks who want DPS need to get the TWF feats and use kamas. TWF will not work with punching and kicking, meaning at the high end monks should be using weapons (unless they're planning for Stunning Fist).

This is amplified because you can get Green Steel kamas, but not handwraps.

And you are basing informed opinion this off of your level 16 monk?

[Angelus_dead]

And you are basing informed opinion this off of your level 16 monk?

Off of level 13 monks, and level 16 characters with a single monk level to obtain the unarmed abilities.

[Angelus_dead]

Out of curiosity, since I don't really play PnP, is that how it is there too? Monks basically should be wielding (monk)weapons for greatest effectiveness in combat, and unarmed combat is pretty much useless in comparison?

Well, in PnP monks are ineffective in combat regardless. They don't have the full BAB that DDO gave them.

But their number of attacks is exactly the same regardless of if they are using bare hands or kamas. They can get the TWF feats to improve their standing attack rate with both unarmed and armed. Their choice to use hands or kamas depends on availability of good weapons versus good buffs- if you can get Greater Magic Fang or an Amulet of Mighty Fists, then your hands are better.

[Rameses]

Off of level 13 monks, and level 16 characters with a single monk level to obtain the unarmed abilities.

Ok. I was just curios if you were pulling this out of your bum.
So far I've leveled my Halfling Water/Sneak Attack Monk to 12 and already have 1000 Favor.
I've yet to have Barbarians steal aggro from me once I've obtained agro and I did not build my monk to be a gimped Min/Max str build *not suggesting your is.*
I've only been out been out DPS'd by a level 10 Monk using Viscious Handwraps.

These are the facts that I know. Monk DPS is good to decent when the character is built right. And I've noticed too many Gamers want to build their Monks like a Tank.
My suggestion is always Build Balanced, Fight like Rogue, Kill like a Fighter/Paladin/Barbarian.

Just my opinion... and I'm a noob.

I am, Rameses!

[nabrendel]

I have to say that I was debating taking TWF for the use of Kamas with my monk.. however, for me the appeal of dual wielding Kamas at lower levels is just not necessary, I will maybe respec the feat as I level up and see how things work out, but for now I enjoy punching and kicking things.. I will say that it would be very helpful at higher levels if the availability of handwraps is low (those with nice effects) and of course you can't vorpal something with your hands... heh

Also, Monks in PnP are not by any shape or form gimped in combat.. I don't know what kind of campaign you run but a Monk can hold their own.. and with flurry of blows they attack quite well.. the only issue is in moving from one target to another.. but thats what spring attack and other feats are for. Plus as the Monk levels up their fists get silly damage... seriously.. 1d20 for a punch at upper levels.. while everyone else is still using base 1d8 weapons or 1d12.. toss in some Tattoo'ed Monk prestige class or others.. they can do very well :-)

[sigtrent]

I havn't gotten especialy scientific about it, but with my level 3 monk the rate of attack wtih unarmed combat is much faster than wtih a weapon in hand. He does have TWF (just the basic) and I'm still getting more attacks with unarmed than with dual kamas.

That may change up the line but even though flurry is not using TWF the attack animation and rate of swings is much faster than regular weapons.

[Angelus_dead]

That may change up the line but even though flurry is not using TWF the attack animation and rate of swings is much faster than regular weapons.

I think monks should use fists rather heavily until level 9 when they get ITWF. That's when dual kama style becomes truly superior.

[Angelus_dead]

Also, Monks in PnP are not by any shape or form gimped in combat.. I don't know what kind of campaign you run but a Monk can hold their own.. and with flurry of blows they attack quite well..

Flurry of Blows only works on a full attack, which only works if you're standing still.

If the monsters are allowing you to stand still and hit them repeatedly, then they are being played like they're idiots. Only zombies/golems/oozes should be that stupid.

The design problem with D&D monks is that they have anti-syngeristic abilities: Flurry of Blows allows them more attacks but only in a round during which they do not move, and Fast Movement allows them to zip around but then not get any extra hits.

A good house-rule to fix D&D monks is to allow them to take a standard action to make one attack + the number of attacks their flurry grants (above what a regular full attack would have).

[sigtrent]

PnP monks arn't that bad. Its just that a lot of folks build and play them rather poorly, especialy at low level where they are quite squishy.

[nabrendel]

Flurry of Blows only works on a full attack, which only works if you're standing still.

If the monsters are allowing you to stand still and hit them repeatedly, then they are being played like they're idiots. Only zombies/golems/oozes should be that stupid.

The design problem with D&D monks is that they have anti-syngeristic abilities: Flurry of Blows allows them more attacks but only in a round during which they do not move, and Fast Movement allows them to zip around but then not get any extra hits.

A good house-rule to fix D&D monks is to allow them to take a standard action to make one attack + the number of attacks their flurry grants (above what a regular full attack would have).

We have always, in my gaming arena online and PnP, that a monk can use flurry as a full attack action which allows you to move up to 5ft and still get your multiple attacks. Thus you can really move to move with a monster you are engaged with. I do not really think that they would believe that someone would stand absolutely still in order to get all those attack bonsues.

[sigtrent]

We have always, in my gaming arena online and PnP, that a monk can use flurry as a full attack action which allows you to move up to 5ft and still get your multiple attacks. Thus you can really move to move with a monster you are engaged with. I do not really think that they would believe that someone would stand absolutely still in order to get all those attack bonsues.

That is pretty much the wayt he rules actualy work unless you mean something other than you say there...

A full attack action can include a 5' step before, after or during the attack sequence.

[Angelus_dead]

We have always, in my gaming arena online and PnP, that a monk can use flurry as a full attack action which allows you to move up to 5ft and still get your multiple attacks. Thus you can really move to move with a monster you are engaged with.

Moving 5ft is not enough to keep up with a monster who doesn't want you to full-attack him.

It doesn't matter if the monster is an earth elemental who moves 20 per round, if he's going away from the monk (or past the monk, or any other direction), then you can't full-attack him even though your speed is 90.

And of course, if an Earth Element does want to stand next to a monk, he still won't let you Flurry, because he'll grapple you. You'll lose your flurry, lose your dex AC, and shortly thereafter lose your hitpoints.