Stunning fist

[ccheath776]

I realize perhaps that stunning fist may be a balance problem which is perhaps why you put it how you put it. I however disagree.
I believe stunning fist for the monk needs to be adjusted for many reasons. One being that it should not cost 15 Ki to cast, it should be a feat worth taking over Stunning blow, and its essentially unusable as is.
Player to character interaction makes it difficult in combat to use this feat. So I will examine how it does not work in its current form from a gameplay view.

Gameplay
The longer an action takes to activate, the less likely it will be used.
- Cost -
Lower levels: The cost of 15 Ki means the player will never use it in the early levels as the player will never be able to get enough punches in to get enough Ki to land it. This was tested in the game and the results seem to remain the same.

**Test Case
Quest - Butchers Path
Player approaches a batch of 5 - 6 kobolds
Player lands 5 - 8 blows amassing about 20 - 25 Ki.
Problem - By the time they amass enough KI to activate stunning fist, all the kobolds are dead. By the time they encounter another mob of kobolds, the KI is gone.
Note: Stunning blow gives near or close to the same effect and is usable more often than stunning fist. IE there is no advantage to taking stunning Fist over Stunning blow.

Suggested resolution -
Reduce the Ki discharge rate or decrease the cost of the action.

Saves
- A possible save differential arises.
Feats -
Stunning Fist - Taken from the in game description
In game doesn't say it but it is supposed to be
DC 10 + ½ your character level + your Wis modifier
At second level -
10 + 1 + 2 = 13

Stunning Blow - 10 + str modifier.
Starting streangth 18 + 4
10 + 4 = 14

Basically the player is still benefited more at the early levels to take stunning blow and ignore stunning Fist.
At higher levels is the only place I see SF coming into play because the save modifer is much higher at the later levels. I also assume that Ki would be more available at those levels as well.

SB -
10 + 10 = 20

SF -
10 + 8 + 8 = 26


Conclusion-
Unless stunning fist was intended for higher level play only, it would seem the answer would be to decrease the discharge rate or reduce the Ki cost of stunning fist.

[EinarMal]

SB -
10 + 10 = 20

SF -
10 + 8 + 8 = 26


Conclusion-
Unless stunning fist was intended for higher level play only, it would seem the answer would be to decrease the discharge rate or reduce the Ki cost of stunning fist.

It is actually worse at higher levels as well, since weighted weapons add to stunning blow DC but not stunning fist.

[ccheath776]

If thats rtrue then it shouldnt be a Ki cost at all or should be very low.

Its not giving any advantage over using stunning Blow.

If it has no advantage then its not going to be used. So it should be changed.

[Magnyr_Delorn]

Is Stunning Fist worse than Stunning Blow? Yes, but stunning is a really cool effect. I use both.

[ccheath776]

Good effect I just think its KI cost needs to be reduced.

[khonda]

It can useful for non-strength based monks and races that don't get enhancements for tactics, who normally would not be using improved trip or stunning blow, since the DCs are based on strength.

[Weezer]

As in P&P the stunning fist feat should be uses per level. It should work like: Bard Songs, Turning Undead, LOH. A set amount of uses per rest.

[Angelus_dead]

As in P&P the stunning fist feat should be uses per level. It should work like: Bard Songs, Turning Undead, LOH. A set amount of uses per rest.

That would be a really bad change.

[Naso24]

there are weighted handwraps for monk stunning fist, i just bought some last night off of the argo ah

Does weighted actually add to the DC? From what I have read, dwarven tactics and fighter strategy do not get added in.

[Angelus_dead]

Problem - By the time they amass enough KI to activate stunning fist, all the kobolds are dead. By the time they encounter another mob of kobolds, the KI is gone.

The Ki is gone? Wow, you'd have to be a really bad player for that to happen.

Conclusion-
Unless stunning fist was intended for higher level play only, it would seem the answer would be to decrease the discharge rate or reduce the Ki cost of stunning fist.

Bingo! There are advantages to increasing in level. More Ki is one of them.

And, newsflash: low level play doesn't matter for more than a day or two. The correct way to judge Stunning Fist is to view it as DC = 18 + wis, compared to Stunning Blow 10 + item + str. And of course holding a Weighted weapon decreases your DPS. Plus the cooldown for Stunning Fist is much less. If it could be used with Kamas it would be awesome; but instead, Stunning Fist is the only reason for a monk to use his bare hands instead of staves or kamas.

PS. You're apparently not using Fire Stance, which is the way to have Ki at low level.

[efreet5]

And of course holding a Weighted weapon decreases your DPS.

Actually, that depends on your rolls Weighted 5% weapons can automatically stun mobs w/o a save 5% of the time. Need a test to confirm? Get a tenderizer with your wizzy with 10 str and smack somebody in pvp! I know a cleric that's been mauled to death by a 10str wizzy in a melee match

For wind stance users with their many attacks it could actually result in an increase in dps due to critting automatically on these stunned mobs. Like vorpals, weighted weapons can be very powerful....then, again they can also be trash all the same.

[winsom]

My new monk respeced out of it after I realized the problems that the OP described. I will try it again at level 6, but I'm very unhappy that the stunning blow feat is superior to the monk-only Stunning Fist ability and Stunning Fist is not a useful choice for low level monks.

I also think that KI should only be expended when an attack roll is generated.

In general it was a unfortunate design choice to have a single pool of KI that all ki-powers draw from. This makes the player mentally weigh the costs of each ability and decide that certain ones will not be worth using much, or never worth using. That is not tactical gameplay. The player is eliminating certain powers from ever being used, and then settling on the most powerful (in actual gameplay). That makes the time spent coding those certain powers a wasted effort as they won't be used as much as the devs thought they would. It also makes playing a monk a lot less tactical and thus less fun for those players that would otherwise enjoy weighing several good options then making a choice.

Guild Wars has a very good system of melee attacks generating "adrenaline" which in turn charge up adrenaline skills on the skill bar. Turbine should look more closely at that system and make a variation of it that works best for DDO.

The GW character might have two adrenaline skills that require 7 adrenaline each to activate. As soon as the character earns 7 adrenaline the player would see both cost 7 skills light up -- either skill is ready to use, but there is only enough adrenaline to activate one of them. The player then choses which one to activate and that skill turns a dull color while the unused skill dims from ready-bright to an almost-ready brightness. That unused skill keeps some of the previously earned potential rather than completely going dim after the 7 adrenaline is expended. That makes this "second choice" skill worth using at some later point because the oportunity cost of using the 'first choice' skill first did not completely drain the potential of this secondary choice. Both skills become valid choices (at some point in the battle) and thus both skills are fun to use as game play.

[KristovK]

My new monk respeced out of it after I realized the problems that the OP described. I will try it again at level 6, but I'm very unhappy that the stunning blow feat is superior to the monk-only Stunning Fist ability and Stunning Fist is not a useful choice for low level monks.

I also think that KI should only be expended when an attack roll is generated.

In general it was a unfortunate design choice to have a single pool of KI that all ki-powers draw from. This makes the player mentally weigh the costs of each ability and decide that certain ones will not be worth using much, or never worth using. That is not tactical gameplay. The player is eliminating certain powers from ever being used, and then settling on the most powerful (in actual gameplay). That makes the time spent coding those certain powers a wasted effort as they won't be used as much as the devs thought they would. It also makes playing a monk a lot less tactical and thus less fun for those players that would otherwise enjoy weighing several good options then making a choice.

Guild Wars has a very good system of melee attacks generating "adrenaline" which in turn charge up adrenaline skills on the skill bar. Turbine should look more closely at that system and make a variation of it that works best for DDO.

The GW character might have two adrenaline skills that require 7 adrenaline each to activate. As soon as the character earns 7 adrenaline the player would see both cost 7 skills light up -- either skill is ready to use, but there is only enough adrenaline to activate one of them. The player then choses which one to activate and that skill turns a dull color while the unused skill dims from ready-bright to an almost-ready brightness. That unused skill keeps some of the previously earned potential rather than completely going dim after the 7 adrenaline is expended. That makes this "second choice" skill worth using at some later point because the oportunity cost of using the 'first choice' skill first did not completely drain the potential of this secondary choice. Both skills become valid choices (at some point in the battle) and thus both skills are fun to use as game play.

You just described how Ki works, did you know that?

Stunning Fist sucks at low level, no two ways about it, but that's ok because Stunning Blow is often pretty useless at low levels as well, and it's pretty much always useless for Dex builds, while Stunning Fist works as well for Str builds as it does for Dex builds. Higher levels, starting around 8th, it gets to be pretty useful, especially if used in conjunction with Fist of Darkness(which pretty much always Shakes the target at 8th level). 15 Ki isn't an issue either, you SHOULD have more then that for 'base' Ki by 4th level.

Oh, and Weighted..doesn't work for Stunning Fist, so don't waste money on those high priced Weighted handwraps on the AH.

[Dylos_Moon]

Level 6 Dwarven Fighter, Base 18+1 Level+1 Tome+1 Enhancement+3 item=24 STR (+7 mod) Fighter Strategy 2, Dwarven Tatics 2
Stunning Blow DC 21

Level 6 Human Monk, Base 18+1 Level+1 Tome+2 Enhancement+2 item+2 Stance=26 WIS (+8 mod)
Stunning Fist DC 21

Seems Balanced to me.

[Tenkari_Rozahas]

if your having trouble keeping your ki, RAISE your concentration skill! for every point of concentration skill you have (wether by feats, items, enhancements or stat boosts) you get to keep that amount of Ki at all times unless you use it to co under that. and the higher your concentration skill, the more ki you get when you meditate.

[bobbryan2]

Level 6 Dwarven Fighter, Base 18+1 Level+1 Tome+1 Enhancement+3 item=24 STR (+7 mod) Fighter Strategy 2, Dwarven Tatics 2
Stunning Blow DC 21

Level 6 Human Monk, Base 18+1 Level+1 Tome+2 Enhancement+2 item+2 Stance=26 WIS (+8 mod)
Stunning Fist DC 21

Seems Balanced to me.

Pfft.

What monk would put 18 into wis and then use level ups into it? And even if they did... blow doesn't take ki. What you described is 'im'balance.

[Missing_Minds]

That would be a really bad change.

not if they have it like Paladin's smite now. Give it uses per rest as it were, but let it regen at the same rate smite does.

[bnrilfun]

I would like to see stunnig fist be more cost effective in Ki. Right now I have had a couple chances to use stunning fist and have not even seen a stun yet. Compound the high Ki cost and its timer and this will be used once in a blue moon at high levels.

[Angelus_dead]

Compound the high Ki cost and its timer and this will be used once in a blue moon at high levels.

A 3 second timer is not much.

15 Ki is not much at all for a high level monk.

The real reason it might not get much use is because you can do more damage with kamas or quarterstaves.

[bnrilfun]

I noticed that also. We ran WW on normal and hard and had the following party.

1 rogue
1 Wizard
3 monks (one had a quarterstaff, one used kamas, and I used fists only)

noticeable differences in how fast the mobs dropped.

One thing I love is the ability for monks to heal. Made things sweet.