When can we disassemble greensteel items?

[Yaga_Nub]

Monk weapons are obviously not the subject under consideration. As a reminder, the topic was "Greensteel weapons of our preferred types, mainly axes and rapiers"

Actually the topic is - "When can we disaasemble greensteel items?"

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Monk weapons are obviously not the subject under consideration. As a reminder, the topic was "Greensteel weapons of our preferred types, mainly axes and rapiers"

No its not. The topic is "When can we disasemble greensteel items" and there is discussion related to that in this thread on the fact it was obvious other weapon types were coming so if you didn't like the choices you should have waited to craft.

[Borror0]

The topic is "When can we disasemble greensteel items" and there is discussion related to that in this thread on the fact it was obvious other weapon types were coming so if you didn't like the choices you should have waited to craft.

Wrong! The topic is "When can we disasemble greensteel items because a whole lot of effort went into crafting and upgrading items in mod6 and now those players have to do the very same grind all over again for these new types"; using the words from the OP. You don't he's complaining from Quarterstaves or from Kama, eh? Unless he has a monk pre-Module 7...

[Sue_Dark]

You know, to all those who went before me and learned the crafting system and made the errors and found the paths, thank you.

However, I do not believe that de-construction is the answer here. Before I found the helpful crafting aides on this forum, the wiki and other places, I made some mistakes. My mistakes were luckily in the raw material department, as indicated by a friend who was trying to help me. I was able to sell the GS necklace I managed to accidentally make and an ore (that I wish I hadnt sold now) but my point is simply, you led the way and have things you want to replace. You did the grind one, you can do it again. No one stood at your back with a gun and said find those recipes or else. It was a choice you made.

I'm sorry you have a super tho not-so-super weapon now, but I still thank you for your research and efforts. Now, get back to work and make those items you WANT.

[Borror0]

For the good of the game I think they should leave the system the way it is. Seems it brings up too many complicated issues like exchange rates etc... not to mention the idea that it provides players a way to customize there equipment as the game changes.

How is any of that any detrimental to the game? I fail to understand. Explain.

What you seem to be saying is that reducing grind and fixing an error you have admited they did seems like a bad idea you. Why? Clearly not to fix their mistake, as that's simply a good idea. If it's too customize their weapon, then I don't see the horrible part into that. You have taken the time to grind all the way to gather 24 ingrediants. I can't understand how being able to change your weapon would be any unbalancing. It increases the life span of your weapon, seems only healthy for the game.

As for the exchange rate, how about loosing all the shards and the power cells? The shards are bound, thus you have to run it again.

[Yaga_Nub]

........What you seem to be saying is that reducing grind and fixing an error you have admited they did seems like a bad idea you. Why? Clearly not to fix their mistake, as that's simply a good idea. If it's too customize their weapon, then I don't see the horrible part into that. You have taken the time to grind all the way to gather 24 ingrediants. I can't understand how being able to change your weapon would be any unbalancing. It increases the life span of your weapon, seems only healthy for the game.

As for the exchange rate, how about loosing all the shards and the power cells? The shards are bound, thus you have to run it again.

The highlighted part Bor is your first mistake. The devs didn't make a mistake or an error (other than leaving horns in the loot tables). Just because a player says it was a mistake doesn't mean it was. The devs said Mod 6 was the first part of crafting. They INTENTIONALLY left the weapons out.

Your second mistake is thinking that the early adopters are owed their ingredients back. There is always a cost for exploration/development/change/etc. and that's why only certain types of people are researchers/explorers/developers/etc. That cost is often NEVER recouped and more often others gain more benefit from ones discoveries than the person who made the discovery.

Third mistake is using the "increase the lifespan of your weapon as healthy to the game" argument. No, what is healthy to the game is to encourage more and more grinding since the devs can't create content fast enough and seem to have abandoned 6-man quests. More is the pity. The game has become a grind. It is the only way that the devs will have time to catch up with the players. It will continue to be a grind for some time because they now have to start planning for level 20 and that will preclude them from creating many quests for the next four to six months IMHO. I am encouraged by all the new dev faces (names?) that I'm seeing in the contest thread so hopefully I'm wrong.

As I said before, your vision, my vision, anyone's vision of DDO means nothing, we aren't the DM. We should offer suggestions but we shouldn't be upset when we don't get the easy button pushed over to us.

[Gryphton]

First off I would like to say thank you to the folks who did grind and did figure out the formula for all the crafting, it has helped everyone in the long run. I thought everyone just kinda assumed that there would be more green steel weapon options in mod 7 after all why wouldn't there be. I have friends who would like to see deconstruction of items, but I just don't think it should happen. Honestly I've been grinding shroud for ingredients just like everyone else, but while the majority of the population has been running around useing their uber crafted weapons and items, my toons have been running along side with just standard or raid loot weapons holding my ingedients for the next mod when I had 100% assumption that we would get more options. The way I see it is that you are crafting magic items and sometimes you get the formula wrong and make the wrong thing or sometimes you do it correct and you make the right thing. It's like wizard trying to scribe a high level scroll in PnP, if they fail thier ingredients are still gone. You can't just go back and be like oh, well now that I have figured out a new formula I want to take appart all of my old items and remake "better" things. It's a magic item, once you combine those ingredients in a reciept something else exists and you can't just go back. If you could just make and break appart weapons whenever you wanted you would be people sitting around making the ideal weapon for whatever content they fealt like running that week and go back and change it the following. You can't make a pizza, sit there eating it for months then ask for the sauce cheese flour yeast lard oil back againe. I know it's upsetting to some folks, but I doubt you will ever get to deconstruct items.
on a side note I think a happy medium would be to put in an essense of disenchanting maybe as an optional end rewards for 20th shroud compleation.

[Borror0]

The highlighted part Bor is your first mistake. The devs didn't make a mistake or an error (other than leaving horns in the loot tables).

I was arguing with edbo, never said they admited it, but he did.

My point is that I fail to see why he would think the option to deconstruct that loot would be detrimental to this game.

Your second mistake is thinking that the early adopters are owed their ingredients back.

Got any dragonscale armor? Or items from the tome pages?

Would you like it if they made one of these much better, without changing the current ones?

Third mistake is using the "increase the lifespan of your weapon as healthy to the game" argument. No, what is healthy to the game is to encourage more and more grinding since the devs can't create content fast enough and seem to have abandoned 6-man quests. More is the pity.

Wrong. Replacing the old grind by a a new one is alright and healthy up to a point, althought a pretty funny argument for a game that was advertise as "not focused on grind" or something of the kind, on the box. Not saying I bought it for that reason, but just pointing out the irony.

Anyway, back to my point, if you introduce more grind, it's bad. There is an amount of grinding to keep the more active palyers in the game, that's true. However, adding more grind just because you're slow at getting content out isn't a good thing. You see, of course at first it gives you something new to do. Module 4, you grind the Tor. Module 5, you grind Litany of the Dead. Module 6, you grind the Shroud. Module 7, we make you run the Shroud for different reasons... what??

That's the problem, I'm not an anti-grind person by any means, it's only that there is an healthy amount of grinding a game. You may go under it if you can, that's actually a good strategy as it'll keep the more player in for the less grind you got... for as long as you're not short on grinding for the old time players. However, making of the new grind a quest everyone ran until they were sick of it... bad idea. It doesn't add any "replay" portion to the game, but rather a sickening portion to it.

That's the problem. Running the Shroud for the 100th time isn't any different. Grinding a new quest is.

As I said before, your vision, my vision, anyone's vision of DDO means nothing, we aren't the DM. We should offer suggestions but we shouldn't be upset when we don't get the easy button pushed over to us.

Isn't that what we're doing?

By the way, you know what I do when I don't like the DM? I quit. Not saying would, because to me it's DDO or nothing, but that may not be the case for everyone. The game is currently at a point where, in my opinion, they cannot allow them to make the three mistakes (and possibly four) they did this update which are:

• No character slot for monks
• No deconstruct or promess to in the near future
• Being quiet on the Wall of Fire fix
• Making the tomes pages bound once in the book (possibly, most likely a bug)

When you make content, you try to make make it fun and try to not pointlessly annoy your customers.

[Sue_Dark]

on a side note I think a happy medium would be to put in an essense of disenchanting maybe as an optional end rewards for 20th shroud compleation.

I like that idea, then the nay-sayers could have their items decon'd at a small price. Meanwhile, they are still gathering ingredients at the same time. grind once, grind often!

btw- thre is no such thing as an mmo without grind, because WE make the grind.

[HumanJHawkins]

I'm sure there is a mass of players who would love to be able to disassemble their obsolete greensteel items to add the upgrades to one of the new types.

Dude, you already can. The only problem is that they are not obsolete yet... As soon as they are, all you do is put them on an alter and click... All your ingredients come back.

Seriously though, there is a very good reason why they will not do this. It is the same reason people who already ate 6 +1 tomes didn't get anything great from their cake. I think a dev put it something like this (paraphrased) "Figuring out what extra thing to give a player who already ate a tome for every stat, is not at the top of my priorities."

Likewise, figuring out how to let someone trade in their 2 ultra uber kopeshes that average 6d6 (or more) of extra damage on every swing, so they can have 7d6 per swing instead, is not at the top of any dev's list.

One of the annoying arguments people keep making is that they have earned the right to do this... Well, what you earned was countless hours of fun. And, unless you are an idiot who likes to pay a monthly fee to endure non-fun things, you have already been paid in full. If you are an idiot, trading in your weapon is not going to help you. So there is really nothing Turbine can or should do.

[Borror0]

Seriously though, there is a very good reason why they will not do this. It is the same reason people who already ate 6 +1 tomes didn't get anything great from their cake. I think a dev put it something like this (paraphrased) "Figuring out what extra thing to give a player who already ate a tome for every stat, is not at the top of my priorities."

Wrong comparison. +1 tomes versus the cake, it shortens the gap between those with a lot of gear and those who got less. That's a good thing for the game and a nice move from them. I will agree with Turbine on that one, if you didn't get any use out of that cake.. well you didn't really need it, right?

However, the Shroud case is totally different:

• The Shroud is a grind.
• This updates puts those who waited better than those who went ahead.

It's not healthy for the game, it just annoys people out, period.

[HumanJHawkins]

Got any dragonscale armor? Or items from the tome pages? Would you like it if they made one of these much better, without changing the current ones?

I just want to point out that I think it would be awesome if they added something like "RainbowScale Armor" to the game... Maybe taking a higher total number of scales and giving better AC, but requiring all 3 colors of scales.

No... I wouldn't be ****ed. What possible reason would I have to be mad at them adding something good to the game that people (including me if I really wanted it) could enjoy? And, no, I would not care if there was no included option to deconstruct other scale armor related to that.

[Angelus_dead]

[*]This updates puts those who waited better than those who went ahead.

That's the crucial point. Playing a game is supposed to be fun, and fun mean immediate gratification, or at least swift and anticipated gratification.

Holding onto large ingredients "because maybe they can be used for something better later" is less fun than getting something useful now. In fact, it's anti-fun. It's bad game design to punish people who spent their ingredients early, and now Turbine is setting a bad precedent that future situations similar to raid crafting may have "trap" choices.

And a rather different reason why this was a bad move: This is Module 7, and it has two new high-end raids. But these new green steel weapons all come from Module 6 content. Improving the loot of the old module is not what a new module is supposed to do. The better way to add new loot rewards to the game world is to attach them to whole new quests, not to old quests that players may already be exhausted of.

[bandyman1]

I just want to point out that I think it would be awesome if they added something like "RainbowScale Armor" to the game... Maybe taking a higher total number of scales and giving better AC, but requiring all 3 colors of scales.

No... I wouldn't be ****ed. What possible reason would I have to be mad at them adding something good to the game that people (including me if I really wanted it) could enjoy? And, no, I would not care if there was no included option to deconstruct other scale armor related to that.

Not an accurate anology.

This one is closer to what's going on here.

You put in the time and effort to grind out the scales and get the dragonscale armor you wanted.

Next mod, the Devs change the stats on that same armor so that it gives 5 more AC and has more duribility, but leave the older sets ( read; The set you worked for ) unchanged.

That's what you're looking at here.

[HumanJHawkins]

Not an accurate anology.

This one is closer to what's going on here.

You put in the time and effort to grind out the scales and get the dragonscale armor you wanted. Next mod, the Devs change the stats on that same armor so that it gives 5 more AC and has more duribility, but leave the older sets ( read; The set you worked for ) unchanged.

That's what you're looking at here.

No... You are incorrect, and my original example is exactly analogous to the current situation.

No craft item can be made any better today than it could have been made a month ago. I.e. Either a Kopesh or Blue Dragonscale are equal today, to what they were last month. People are complaining because we now have the option to make other things from different combinations of the same ingredients, i.e. A dwarf axe (or my mythical rainbow Dragonscale armor)

[JTsays]

Hawkin's analogy is exactly accurate.

The original items are exactly as they were before, (unlike the original, dryden's mace nerf for example which was changed to something lesser).

Now there is a different something ’better’ than the original. You are free to get that new item, at an investment of time. This is unlike the Invaders rewards for example, where you choose only one item per character forever. If later on, more items are added to the list you did indeed get the short end of the stave.

[Borror0]

Hawkin's analogy is exactly accurate.

Not really, in one hand, you got a company making profits out of selling cars. In the other, you've got a company making profits out of keeping their customers from playing the game for as many months/years as they can. Player retention is a must for once, for the other, not so much.

Turbine has made a change that will upset a bunch of players, no doubt about it. That's bad for them, as simple as that.

If later on, more items are added to the list you did indeed get the short end of the stave.

Thus would be a poor decision.

[Yaga_Nub]

Wrong comparison. +1 tomes versus the cake, it shortens the gap between those with a lot of gear and those who got less. That's a good thing for the game and a nice move from them. I will agree with Turbine on that one, if you didn't get any use out of that cake.. well you didn't really need it, right?

However, the Shroud case is totally different:

• The Shroud is a grind.
  
• This updates puts those who waited better than those who went ahead.

It's healthy for the game, it just annoys people out, period.

Highlighted something and fixed your last sentence.

That's progress bud and that's how it should be. All you suckers that bought 720p 40 inch plasmas when you knew that 1080p 50 inch plasmas were going to be the same price in 6 months can cry all you want. Dummies that bought the iPhone knowing (through several leaked rumors) that there would be a newer model in a year with better internet capabilities are just that. Dumb. That's IF you want Apple to give you a new phone because you were an early adopter. Those that understand what early adoption is just suck up the cost of a new one and sell their old one or let it sit in a closet somewhere.

As an early adopter, you got access to some cool stuff and were able to brag that you have the latest and greatest item/weapon/etc. out right now. When it goes out of style/becomes obsolete/etc. you, as an early adopter, get nothing back because you already got your benefit. This is why many people waited and they are now being given a benefit for waiting. That's how the game is played in life as well as DDO.

[Yaga_Nub]

That's the crucial point. Playing a game is supposed to be fun, and fun mean immediate gratification, or at least swift and anticipated gratification.

Holding onto large ingredients "because maybe they can be used for something better later" is less fun than getting something useful now. In fact, it's anti-fun. It's bad game design to punish people who spent their ingredients early, and now Turbine is setting a bad precedent that future situations similar to raid crafting may have "trap" choices.

And a rather different reason why this was a bad move: This is Module 7, and it has two new high-end raids. But these new green steel weapons all come from Module 6 content. Improving the loot of the old module is not what a new module is supposed to do. The better way to add new loot rewards to the game world is to attach them to whole new quests, not to old quests that players may already be exhausted of.

No fun does not mean immediate gratification or even swift and anticipated gratification.

Everyone's personal definition of fun is different and every game is different. Some games do have fairly quick gratification and some games take months (maybe even years?) to complete.

YOU want immediate gratification. Well you can want in one hand and **** in the other and guess which will be filled first. Obviously for someone full of **** that an easy answer but you get my point.

Turbine didn't "punish" those of us that made items before this Mod. They also didn't "reward" those that have waited to use their ingredients. As always, they just gave us options and you and everyone else made decisions based on those options. And before you get into one of your usual huffs, YES, not having every possible option known still presents you with options that you must think about and account for in your final decisions.

[Yaga_Nub]

Not an accurate anology.

This one is closer to what's going on here.

You put in the time and effort to grind out the scales and get the dragonscale armor you wanted.

Next mod, the Devs change the stats on that same armor so that it gives 5 more AC and has more duribility, but leave the older sets ( read; The set you worked for ) unchanged.

That's what you're looking at here.

That's not quite right either Bandy.

I think my previous analogy is best.

You just pulled a w/p short sword. Later you find out that there are w/p rapiers. Did the SS just become worthless? Not in the slightest. Is it the most powerful weapon out there? No, not if you have a rapier and IC:Piercing. Are you going to quit using the SS? Not on your life you aren't. What if you finally get that awesome w/p rapier? You'll figure out a way to dual wield them.

The previous green steel weapons didn't become worthless with this Mod and people really need to stop thinking that they did. **** mob mentality.