When can we disassemble greensteel items?

[Yaga_Nub]

It's funny how perspectives can vary. If you asked me, I would say that people who saved their ingredients are the ones getting the free ride. They are using the documentation and web sites that where created by the people that experimented and spent their ingredients.

So the "savers" get all the benefits, without any of the work. Meanwhile the people who did the work get shafted. 2 sides to every story I suppose…

So how much work on computer design and software engineering have you done? Those early designers and engineers are really getting the shaft and you're getting all the benefit. You should stop using your computer so they get just a little less shaft.

[Yaga_Nub]

Actually what the update does is force people to actually EARN the better items. Pre-fix shroud items are probably
somewhere between 80-90% unearned. Maybe even higher.

qft

[Yaga_Nub]

Well, it is not easy to rectify now. It might have been easier if they'd done something to fix it a lot earlier. But at this point, it would be fairly hard.

That's a great point A_D. That's probably why I'm so against it. I have zero faith that the devs, with all the different pressures they have on them to fix this, could actually devise a solution that works well for the MAJORITY (not every last person) without something else going wrong. I mean they put out a Mod that broke ASF on FP, something that had been working correctly since beta.

[bandyman1]

No statistically speaking you will have 6 crits on a rapier v 4 on a SS. There's a reason that every car commercial that means the MPG of the vehicle states that "Your actual mileage may vary." It's because statistics are actual numbers they are purely hypothetical.

Yaga, you can argue semantics in a game system based on algorithms all you want, the fact is;

You can not argue that a rapier isn't twice as effective as a shortsword.

They have the same base damage, they are both piercing, they can both be finessed, ect.

The only difference between the two, is that the rapier has an increased crit range. That's it.

Now when you add in that the main importance to the weapons we're discussing is radiance II, which is an on crit effect, then it's pretty easy for anyone to see that the difference between the two is HUGE.

Rapier wins. Hands down. By at least a 50% margin of effectiveness.

[Yaga_Nub]

Yaga, you can argue semantics in a game system based on algorithms all you want, the fact is;

You can not argue that a rapier isn't twice as effective as a shortsword.

They have the same base damage, they are both piercing, they can't both be finessed, ect.

The only difference between the two, is that the rapier has an increased crit range. That's it.

Now when you add in that the main importance to the weapons we're discussing is radiance II, which is an on crit effect, then it's pretty easy for anyone to see that the difference between the two is HUGE.

Rapier wins. Hands down. By at least a 50% margin of effectiveness.

Absolutely it does........ if you're rolling 15 and 16 more with the rapier than the SS.

But if you are swing those weapons 100 times and 14 or below comes up 99 out of 100 times and 20 comes up the other time then guess what, the SS is just as effective as the rapier. Or if 17 and above comes up 99 out of times and 16 comes up the other time, guess what the rapier is only minutely more effective than the rapier.

And I'm not talking about statistically, I'm talk about actual use.

I like to keep track of stuff like that because I'm always torn between dual wielding vorpals or dual wielding w/p rapiers. I have seen 20ish 20s in a row before using vorpals. So I know the way that numbers can be your friend or not.

[Coldin]

Absolutely it does........ if you're rolling 15 and 16 more with the rapier than the SS.

But if you are swing those weapons 100 times and 14 or below comes up 99 out of 100 times and 20 comes up the other time then guess what, the SS is just as effective as the rapier. Or if 17 and above comes up 99 out of times and 16 comes up the other time, guess what the rapier is only minutely more effective than the rapier.

And I'm not talking about statistically, I'm talk about actual use.

I like to keep track of stuff like that because I'm always torn between dual wielding vorpals or dual wielding w/p rapiers. I have seen 20ish 20s in a row before using vorpals. So I know the way that numbers can be your friend or not.

Yaga, you're being silly. Just admit that a rapier is going to crit more than a short sword. While it may be statistics, over 1000s of swings, you will roll all numbers equally, which means you'll crit with that rapier more often.

[bandyman1]

Absolutely it does........ if you're rolling 15 and 16 more with the rapier than the SS.

But if you are swing those weapons 100 times and 14 or below comes up 99 out of 100 times and 20 comes up the other time then guess what, the SS is just as effective as the rapier. Or if 17 and above comes up 99 out of times and 16 comes up the other time, guess what the rapier is only minutely more effective than the rapier.

And I'm not talking about statistically, I'm talk about actual use.

I like to keep track of stuff like that because I'm always torn between dual wielding vorpals or dual wielding w/p rapiers. I have seen 20ish 20s in a row before using vorpals. So I know the way that numbers can be your friend or not.

Which would be all well and fine if we were limited to such a small number of to-hit rolls in this game, but we're not.

The numbers average themselves over the amount of rolls we're making, that's all there is to it.

[Kulothar]

/signed.

[bandyman1]

Any Dev comments on this issue???

[Guildmaster_Kadish]

Hmm... Maybe you are right. Turbine definitely should not have added Monks. I mean, I am seriously cheesed off about this. I spent 2 years getting a Tank, a Sorc, and a Cleric capped. And now they have introduced a better class. But I will have to go through the same old grind if I want to take advantage of it, whereas new players get Monks right from the start.

This just isn't fair to all the players who built other classes already. If they were going to make Monks, they should have made a whole seperate city with all new quests so that new players and old would be able to get their Monks capped without going through old quests again. Turbine needs to stop doing **** like this that just angers it's player base.

There are several large differences between the two issues. Monks are not strictly better than anything else (if at all). We all knew monks were coming in mod7.

By contrast, nobody knew that certain new greensteel weapons were going to be added. Yes, some people suspected it, but it was never explicitly stated. And a scimitar is strictly better than a longsword. In fact, it practically is a longsword with a better crit range.

The Monk analogy is utterly inapplicable.

[HumanJHawkins]

<CUT>By contrast, nobody knew that certain new greensteel weapons were going to be added. Yes, some people suspected it, but it was never explicitly stated.<CUT>

This is one of the more common arguments made on this issue. Well, here's the thing... A lot of us *did* know. I mean, to the extent that we know storm clouds mean it is going to rain soon. Yeah... Sometimes there are storm clouds and it doesn't actually rain. But we prepare for rain nonetheless. And usually we are right.

Some people "know" that the cleric who just joined is not going to be very good at healing them, so immediately shift to a more defensive style... Some clerics know that the warforged barbarian with no shield is going to take a lot of damage, and they will either make up their mind to burn a lot of resources, or they might drop group and play somewhere else. Other people really don't have a clue about either of these kinds of things.

So, intuition is a trait of the player that has a big effect on everything in their game. People with intuition about various things benefit form their intuition. And, it would be harmful to the game for Turbine to dumb the game down to where this was not the case.

I am sorry that you didn't see this coming, but a great many people did. And they prepared for it. That preparation, at least as you see it, seems to have turned into a score for them. And a missed score for you. Instead of arguing with the ref that this wasn't fair, you might be better off getting back in the game and winning the next point.

[sirgog]

Some clerics know that the warforged barbarian with no shield is going to take a lot of damage, and they will either make up their mind to burn a lot of resources, or they might drop group and play somewhere else. Other people really don't have a clue about either of these kinds of things.

Other people tell the Wizard to prep Reconstruct, and all are happy

[bandyman1]

This is one of the more common arguments made on this issue. Well, here's the thing... A lot of us *did* know. I mean, to the extent that we know storm clouds mean it is going to rain soon. Yeah... Sometimes there are storm clouds and it doesn't actually rain. But we prepare for rain nonetheless. And usually we are right.

Some people "know" that the cleric who just joined is not going to be very good at healing them, so immediately shift to a more defensive style... Some clerics know that the warforged barbarian with no shield is going to take a lot of damage, and they will either make up their mind to burn a lot of resources, or they might drop group and play somewhere else. Other people really don't have a clue about either of these kinds of things.

So, intuition is a trait of the player that has a big effect on everything in their game. People with intuition about various things benefit form their intuition. And, it would be harmful to the game for Turbine to dumb the game down to where this was not the case.

I am sorry that you didn't see this coming, but a great many people did. And they prepared for it. That preparation, at least as you see it, seems to have turned into a score for them. And a missed score for you. Instead of arguing with the ref that this wasn't fair, you might be better off getting back in the game and winning the next point.

And I guess that's all well and cool man.


Maybe their intuition will allow them to foresee all the future crafting recipies ( or precieve any/all kinks in whatever other future prototype systems Turbine implements ), because those of us who ground through this system, experimented by trial and error, shared our knowledge for the good of the community, and ended up shafted, certainly aren't going to be in the forefront after this burn.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

And I guess that's all well and cool man.


Maybe their intuition will allow them to foresee all the future crafting recipies ( or precieve any/all kinks in whatever other future prototype systems Turbine implements ), because those of us who ground through this system, experimented by trial and error, shared our knowledge for the good of the community, and ended up shafted, certainly aren't going to be in the forefront after this burn.

Oh come on, you aren't "shafted" because something new comes out. I guess all of you that created Wiz6 shroud items are now shafted by the Wiz7 named ring in the new raids eh?

And all of you that decided to do 10000 rez ring runs were shafted by the true rez clickies from the shroud right?

You decided to build something that was useful to you at the time, if its not anymore, oh well.

[Angelus_dead]

Oh come on, you aren't "shafted" because something new comes out. I guess all of you that created Wiz6 shroud items are now shafted by the Wiz7 named ring in the new raids eh?

No. Those are new quests, which means you must do new runs to get the new gear. They were not a replacement to the loot rewards from an old quest that you could've gotten simply by saving your ingredients from old runs of an old quest to get new gear.

And all of you that decided to do 10000 rez ring runs were shafted by the true rez clickies from the shroud right?

No. Those are new quests, which means you must do new runs to get the new gear. They were not a replacement to the loot rewards from an old quest that you could've gotten simply by saving your ingredients from old runs of an old quest to get new gear.

[etelan]

And all of you that decided to do 10000 rez ring runs were shafted by the true rez clickies from the shroud right?

I think the key here is the words "very same grind" from the OP.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

No. Those are new quests, which means you must do new runs to get the new gear. They were not a replacement to the loot rewards from an old quest that you could've gotten simply by saving your ingredients from old runs of an old quest to get new gear.


No. Those are new quests, which means you must do new runs to get the new gear. They were not a replacement to the loot rewards from an old quest that you could've gotten simply by saving your ingredients from old runs of an old quest to get new gear.

So you would rather them have never added the new items? because that would have stopped the regrind of the old quests...


Look, I'm not actually against deconstruction. This game is getting way to grindy for me and I could see people wanting to take stuff appart (although I do think there should be some cost...)

I do think people are being overly whiney when they talk about being "screwed" by the addition of new features in an existing raid. These additions are good things. Many people saw them coming and decided not to craft (or craft only 1 thing) untill they saw what was to come. We each make choices, no point in crying about the ones you already made in a game.

[Guildmaster_Kadish]

This is one of the more common arguments made on this issue. Well, here's the thing... A lot of us *did* know. I mean, to the extent that we know storm clouds mean it is going to rain soon. Yeah... Sometimes there are storm clouds and it doesn't actually rain. But we prepare for rain nonetheless. And usually we are right.

Some people "know" that the cleric who just joined is not going to be very good at healing them, so immediately shift to a more defensive style... Some clerics know that the warforged barbarian with no shield is going to take a lot of damage, and they will either make up their mind to burn a lot of resources, or they might drop group and play somewhere else. Other people really don't have a clue about either of these kinds of things.

So, intuition is a trait of the player that has a big effect on everything in their game. People with intuition about various things benefit form their intuition. And, it would be harmful to the game for Turbine to dumb the game down to where this was not the case.

Look, I'd really appreciate it if you'd stop insinuating that I'm an idiot and/or you and others are somehow "better" than me and others because we had faith that Turbine would not change the old loot without allowing those changes to be retroactive. The fact is that this has never happened before without allowing prior loot to be upgraded, so there was, logically, very little reason to believe that Turbine would bite the hand that feeds them and start making non-retroactive changes to past loot now.

I am sorry that you didn't see this coming, but a great many people did. And they prepared for it. That preparation, at least as you see it, seems to have turned into a score for them. And a missed score for you. Instead of arguing with the ref that this wasn't fair, you might be better off getting back in the game and winning the next point.

And instead of you arguing with the ref to keep others down, why don't you happily enjoy your own score and allow us the opportunity to raise ourselves up. It isn't as if allowing those of us who crafted prior to Mod7 recraft with rapiers/scimitars/greataxes is going to hurt you, is it? Or is this just about some corrupted sense of competition that leads you to desire better loot than those of us who crafted before you?

I've stated and restated my opinion several times now, and I can see that I'm certainly not going to convince you of anything. With luck, someone out there sees the logic of the argument and agrees with Angelus, Borror, myself, and others.

So, goodbye in this thread at least; you probably won't see me again here.

Have fun out there,
Master Kadish

[Snoggy]

Look, I'm not actually against deconstruction. This game is getting way to grindy for me and I could see people wanting to take stuff appart (although I do think there should be some cost...)

Generally people are ok with some cost. The most oft suggested idea is that the ingredients get returned but not the shard or powersource. That means the cost is ...

- Powersources (not too hard a cost on anyone)
- Having to re-run for shards.

This is something a lot of people have suggested and gotten behind. It cuts down on having to re-grind to the point where your eyes bleed just for ingredients. It promotes players helping each other again by swapping ingredients (those having to re-run just for shards can now trade and/or give the ingredients they don't need to fellow raiders since they got to deconstruct instead of rebuild from scratch). It cuts down on the inordinate and outrageous pricing of ingredients by flowing more into the economy. Usually it's a good thing to keep prices from getting disgustingly abused.

People asking for deconstruction, for the most part, simply don't want to have to re-grind all of those larges again, and again, and again. Not many are asking for it to be free of charge. In fact, most posters in here I suspect are already resigned to a deconstruct eating shards.

[bandyman1]

Oh come on, you aren't "shafted" because something new comes out. I guess all of you that created Wiz6 shroud items are now shafted by the Wiz7 named ring in the new raids eh?

And all of you that decided to do 10000 rez ring runs were shafted by the true rez clickies from the shroud right?

You decided to build something that was useful to you at the time, if its not anymore, oh well.

Lmao, whatever you have to tell yourself man. AD siad it all in his reply to this post. No sence rehashing it. Hope you have fun being **** on for taking the time to test and provide feedback on the next prototype sytem Turbine releases, because those of us who already been there, and done that here, certainly won't be doing so.


Again....any Dev feedback for this issue???

Even a simple " Sorry. You're screwed and we don't care ." would suffice. I know the call to cancel payment on my CC would only take a few minutes.