Elf combat melee classes. Why bother?

[Andah]

So, I'm making this post because I've found a rather frustrating inconsistency in the power of dwarf fighters, versus fighters of other races, mostly elves. In my opinion, elves should be equals at least to dwarves in martial skills by the setting of Eberron, however the sets of abilities do not accurately represent this. Dwarf Enhancements are (for the most part) Just plain better than their elven equivalents. Don't believe me, or don't feel I'm fairly accounting for all factors? Take a look:

Firstly, Dwarven Axe Damage and Dwarven Axe Attack are grossly overpowered enhancements. Where an elf gets bonus attack and damage to a longsword and rapier, a dwarf gets battleaxe, throwing axe, greataxe, handaxe and DWARVEN AXE. Both enhancements are 2 points at first rank and 4 at second rank. How are they the same number of points when a dwarf gets almost three times the weapons where the damage is applicable, especially when one such weapon does a d10 of damage, meaning even if it were that ONE weapon, which they gain as a free proficiency, it should still be a more expensive enhancement as d10+2 is better than d8+2 without a shadow of a doubt.

Secondly, Dwarven Armored Mastery. Why does it even exist? Dwarves aren't meant to be as agile a race as elves, why are they more adept at moving in armor? It should for NO reason stack with Fighter Armor Mastery and I have been told that it does. This means that no matter what, a race of slower moving, broader creatures will always be harder to hit in melee. And it means that more characters will have an absurdly high AC. +5 Mithril for an elf only works up to a 22 Dexterity, why should it work up to a 26 for a Dwarf? If it has to be in the game, it should cost DOUBLE the points it does now because it stacks with the pre-existing enhancement Fighter's Armor Mastery. Max elf AC: 51 (+13 armor, +6 dex, +9 shield, +5 protection, +3 dodge, +3 natural). Max dwarf AC: 52 (+13 armor, +7 dex, +9 shield, +5 Protection, +3 dodge, +3 natural) That's not that absurd by it's self, but when you take the +5 Mithril Tower Shield out of the picture, and adjust to keep the highest AC possible, Dwarves will have a 51 AC as well, but since an elf has to use a tower shield to attain that, the dwarf will have 2 better to-hit. Why should it be more rewarding for a dwarf to be dexterous than an elf?

Next, Dwarven Spell Defense. The most comparable elven enhancement is Elven Enchantment Resistance. This doesn't take the lengthy explaination of the other enhancements. +1 to all saves versus spells is better than +1 to all saves versus enchantment spells. Why do they cost the same number of action points?

And lastly, Dwarven Tactics. Another enhancement that stacks with the fighter ability that does the same. This means all Dwarf DC's will be up to 3 higher than their elf counter-parts. Three enhancements wrapped into one should not cost 2 points per rank. It's three enhancements and should cost three, if it should even be included at all.

Fighters have several roles in a party, and to summarize the effects of the enhancements I've given, I'll give reasons for the clear dwarven superiority in each.

DPS:
When dual-weilding weapons Dwarves have better to-hits and to-damage rolls than elves, as their Axe Attack and Axe Damage can potentially work for both main-hand and off-hand attacks (Without incurring a penalty). Weapon Focus: Slashing applies to both axes, as does Improved Critical and Weapon Specialization. For elves to reach a similiar bonus, they'll have to pull a named rapier out of a VERY difficult quest, and they'll have to give up four die-sides of damage (d6 on rapier, versus d10 on dwarven axe) unless the plan on spending double the feats on both Slashing and Piercing weapon specialization, focus and critical, even still they'll be shorted two die-faces of damage (D8 on a longsword versus D10 on a dwarven axe).

Two-handed fighters cannot even be compared, a dwarf with the same set of feats will gain +2 higher damage and to-hit while using a greataxe, and will be compensated for the lack of shield better by a higher armor class.

Shield-using fighters will obviously be stunted, as the dwarven one-hander will be using a weapon that's simply better. D8+2 versus D10+2 doesn't take much more explaination than that. Furthermore, as was stated earlier, a dwarf using a setup with a 51 AC will not need a Tower shield to attain it, so they will have either a +2 better to-hit than the elf, or +1 better AC than the elf, depending on the setup that the dwarf chooses.

Technical:
Dwarf fighters hands down have better trip, stun and sunder DC's with their enhancements. In addition, the best vertigo item in the game, Serrulae, is an axe, meaning that dwarves will gain an additional +2 to-hit and +2 to-damage over elves using a manuver heavy build as well.

Tanking:
Dwarves have better saving throws, better damage per second, more HP and a higher potential AC, making them clearly superior tanks. In addition they can gain shield mastery, granting them additional damage reduction over an elf, and making them once again superior tanks.

Further than that, I'd like to avoid comparing enhancements, as the rest that the races get are on-par. Elves make better Wizards, whereas Dwarves make better clerics. This is fine, even if a bit frustrating since my first toon is an elf cleric. However, elven search and the like make poor substitutes for the dwarf combat enhancements, which make a more effective character rather than just allowing a rogue to place more skill points into haggle, jump, or some other realatively useless skill.

I'd really like to be able to not feel like I wasted my time getting an elf fighter up to 14th level, but I'm starting to feel as though I did, and I've begun to wonder why anyone bothers making any fighter that ISN'T a dwarf.

[Impaqt]

Havnt you figured it out by now? All the Devs Play Dwarves......

I dont mind.. I take advantage of all they offer.... But I do have a spiffy elf now I like a lot too....

[Andah]

I mind. If I liked elves being treated unfairly I'd still be playing WoW :P

[ThrasherGT]

and a question.........

Now, I understand That parts of this game can be frustrating. However, when the goals are only expressed in terms of superlatives,
(I.E. max AC, to-hit numbers, saving throw numbers) I believe We begin to lose sight of the enjoyment that DDO can provide.
I personally have never sought out "the perfect build" for any of my characters, and while some will denounce this on principle, I
believe that the inherant "flaws" of my characters make them unique. To me, building an "uber" character following someone else's template would, quite frankly, be boring because there's no mystery about the way to play such a character. The time it takes me to find out what works and what doesn't work while I level a toon, to Me, is a large part of the enjoyment I get out of DDO. The fact that none of My toons are what some would call "uber", combined with the fact that I can "keep up" with just about anybody in any quest, gives Me much enjoyment.

I guess the point of this is:

If You enjoy playing Your Elf (or insert race/ class here), Why does it matter what the other races/ classes get?
You obviously put alot of thought and work into this post, but in my opinion, every race/ class has its strengths and weaknesses.....
Can't we all just get along?

[Mhykke]

I may be wrong, but wasn't there some number crunching done a while back that showed a max dps elf w/ a rapier and all the enhancements was comparable to a max dps khopesh user (and therefore comparable, if not superior in DPS, to a dwarf w/ the axe enhancements?)

I'm too lazy to run through the numbers now, too busy studying for law finals....

[Andah]

and a question.........

Now, I understand That parts of this game can be frustrating. However, when the goals are only expressed in terms of superlatives,
(I.E. max AC, to-hit numbers, saving throw numbers) I believe We begin to lose sight of the enjoyment that DDO can provide.
I personally have never sought out "the perfect build" for any of my characters, and while some will denounce this on principle, I
believe that the inherant "flaws" of my characters make them unique. To me, building an "uber" character following someone else's template would, quite frankly, be boring because there's no mystery about the way to play such a character. The time it takes me to find out what works and what doesn't work while I level a toon, to Me, is a large part of the enjoyment I get out of DDO. The fact that none of My toons are what some would call "uber", combined with the fact that I can "keep up" with just about anybody in any quest, gives Me much enjoyment.

I guess the point of this is:

If You enjoy playing Your Elf (or insert race/ class here), Why does it matter what the other races/ classes get?
You obviously put alot of thought and work into this post, but in my opinion, every race/ class has its strengths and weaknesses.....
Can't we all just get along?

It matters to me because the game is imbalanced. It's less fun when you're not pulling your own weight compared to another character, especially one of the same class and the same build just because they're of another race. I chose to play an elf because I like elves.

What we're talking about here is not strengths and weaknesses that are equal. We're talking about one race that is hands-down superior to the other, something that comes particularly appearant in the enhancements I offered that were complete parrallels, except dwarves got it better. It's not fun playing a game when there's another race that can do anything you can do (except being a wizard), but do it better.

I put alot of thought into my character, and that's why I care that she plays the way I'd like her to in comparison to other players. A good deal of my enjoyment of the game comes from roleplaying and enjoying the feel of my character, but as this is a computer RPG and not a MUX or a PnP group, so alot of the enjoyment I glean from DDO also comes from advancing my character and making her more powerful. That becomes severely LESS fun if there's a level of advancement in power I simply can't attain because I'd rather not play a character that's short, fat and hairy.

[TreknaQudane]

Um... A few things on my thought..

Weapon Enhancements:

Yep, Dwarves get them to all Axe's in game. That's kind of strong I'll give you that, but thats also only slashing weapons.

Elves gain it for Longswords/Rapiers ... or Longbows/Shortbows. Going the Longsword/Rapier route will only work for two weapon types true, but two weapons of different types lending themselves to a more versatile character base also worth note, if using anything that happens on crit, it will happen more for the elf using their racial weaponry than for a dwarf. I notice you skipped over the Elven range.. while a tank may not use it, you need take it into consideration.

As for the Dwarven Armor Mastery... Being able to move better in your armor is not the same thing as being more dexterous. DAM represents the fact that dwarves are NOT dexterous but know how to use their armor better than most races. Elves on the other hand are more dexterous, a fact that inclines them to not needing heavier armor in general. Granted, there will be a few that use it, but those ones are likely to have fighter levels and access to the enhancement.

As for Spell Defense, I agree, its a bit over powering. Though it is funny watching that 'uber' save dwarf eat a trap because they are down 5 on saves to that compared to a spell.

anyway... my summary...

There is a reason, even before ddo came out, for the stereotypical rough and tumble dwarven fighter and the lithe elven swordsman, the classes/combinations are not made to be equal. They are just different approaches to a problem that can have different solutions.

[Andah]

I may be wrong, but wasn't there some number crunching done a while back that showed a max dps elf w/ a rapier and all the enhancements was comparable to a max dps khopesh user (and therefore comparable, if not superior in DPS, to a dwarf w/ the axe enhancements?)

I'm too lazy to run through the numbers now, too busy studying for law finals....

Out of 20 shots, needing an 8 to hit, an elf using a rapier will do on average 79 damage
Out of 20 shots, needing a 10 to hit, an human using a kopesh will do on average 54 damage
Out of 20 shots, needing an 8 to hit, a dwarf, using a waraxe will do on average 112.5 damage

Sounds fair, doesn't it? Dwarves do more than double what humans can with all applicable feats.

Um... A few things on my thought..

Weapon Enhancements:

Yep, Dwarves get them to all Axe's in game. That's kind of strong I'll give you that, but thats also only slashing weapons.

Elves gain it for Longswords/Rapiers ... or Longbows/Shortbows. Going the Longsword/Rapier route will only work for two weapon types true, but two weapons of different types lending themselves to a more versatile character base also worth note, if using anything that happens on crit, it will happen more for the elf using their racial weaponry than for a dwarf. I notice you skipped over the Elven range.. while a tank may not use it, you need take it into consideration.

As for the Dwarven Armor Mastery... Being able to move better in your armor is not the same thing as being more dexterous. DAM represents the fact that dwarves are NOT dexterous but know how to use their armor better than most races. Elves on the other hand are more dexterous, a fact that inclines them to not needing heavier armor in general. Granted, there will be a few that use it, but those ones are likely to have fighter levels and access to the enhancement.

As for Spell Defense, I agree, its a bit over powering. Though it is funny watching that 'uber' save dwarf eat a trap because they are down 5 on saves to that compared to a spell.

anyway... my summary...

There is a reason, even before ddo came out, for the stereotypical rough and tumble dwarven fighter and the lithe elven swordsman, the classes/combinations are not made to be equal. They are just different approaches to a problem that can have different solutions.

Elves get slashing and piercing. Slashing is reduced by NOTHING that piercing isn't also reduced by. While budgeoning is the most effective in the game, slashing is a close second. They also must spend double the points to get the ability with both ranged and melee weapons, whereas dwarves get throwing axes in their list of axe damage/attack.

No, it's not dexterous, but the way the game is presently balanced encourages dwarf players to make uncharacteristically dexterous dwarves to take advantage of the fact that they can have the highest AC in the game. Why should a dwarf fighter move better in armor than an elven one fluff-wise or in the game-balance sense? For dwarves to even really need to learn to move fast in heavy armor, they'd need to be as dexterous as elves to begin with. No, it's a silly enhancement. It should overlap with Fighter's Armor Mastery. End of story.

Funny though it might be, it's still an imbalanced enhancement.

In PnP the elf will generally have a higher AC, and fewer HP. That's the way it's meant to be balanced, not the dwarf gets higher AC and more HP and more damage. What would your solution to the problem be? Make an elf fighter with a +10 dex mod, that wears padded and has two ranks in armor mastery and fights sword and board? That's a 44 AC.

[honkuimushi]

Dwarves are definately strong, no one will argue with that. But when you compare all the races, elves aren't that bad off. Pity the poor humans. One thing you have to keep in mind are PnP favored classes. Many of the enhancements draw on this as a theme. Dwarves have Fighter as their favored class; elves have Wizard. That's why elves get Elven Arcana and the reduced spell failure enhancements. If a better way to make a gish ever is developed, I expect elves and warforged to be favored. One option in Eberron is for Valenar elves to have ranger as a favored class, so i woould like to see a few more ranger--like enhancements.

I will concede that either the dwarven resistance shoube be made a litthe more expensive or the elven resistance should be made a little cheaper. But most of the other enhancements have a pretty good basis. First dwarven armor matery-- dwarves are not as slowed by heavy armor as other races, therefore they are more dextrous in heavy armor in PnP. Also if you look in Races of Stone, there are exotic dwarven armors and a feat called armor optimization that reduces the armor penalty and increases the AC bonus. So I'm fine with armor mastery, especially since most dwarves won't have the dex to use all of it and the later stages are expensive.

There are 2 races that have fighter as a favored class in DDO-- Dwarves and Warforged. Both get the same enhancement to activated combat feats. I'm fine with that. In fact, most people who use those feats extensively will have several fighter levels anyway.


Nw the weapon enhancements. First, remember that elves gain rapier, longsword, longbow and short bow as simple weapons. Axes are martial weapons, so pure Clerics, Rogues and Casters suffer a non-proficiency penalty with them. Also Dwarven Axe requires martial weapon proficiency. But axes have always been associated with dwarves. Hammers are too, but they don't get anything for them. They also lack ranged options. They get a bonus to throwing axes, but they are generally weaker than a bow or crossbow.

Elves can use their weapon enhancemets to great effect. The +2 to attack cancels out the penalty for using a rapier in the off hand and gives you a better crit on your off hand weapon. If Oversized TWF is ever added, elves will be increadably good at TWF. The longsword enhancements are also good for strength based TWF Rangers. The dwarven axe does more damage, but an elf has a much better chance of meeting the dex requirements or filling out the dex bonus for light armor. For a sword and boarder, the longsword enhancements give you a weapon better than the bastard sword and maybe a khopesh without needing the Exotic or even the Martial Weapon Proficiencies. I would however, like to see a scimitar enhancement for Valenar.

Finally you have the ranged enhancements. Honestly ranged combat has some problems, but it looks like it's getting a little love soon. A longbow is good for rogues and low level casters that want to conserve mana. For a ranged Rangers, elves are probably the best choice. You get the bow enhancements and the dex boost. Also don't look just at dwarves, what do the other races get for weapon enhancements. Drow get rapiers, short swords and shuriken. Halflings get thrown weapons and crossbows. Humans get nothing. Warforged get nothing. The elves look okay to me.

Honestly, going by flavor you should see more heavily armored dwarven fighters(think dwarven defender) while elves should favor more dextrous, finesse fighters. I wouldn't mind seeing some enhancements like armor mastery if it's limited to light armor. Maybe a bonus to dodge if the elf is unarmored. But first, some of the other races need some love. The elves are in pretty good shape.

[MysticTheurge]

Yep. Dwarves got some issues.

They seem relatively easy to fix, to me. Though no one (who plays a dwarf) is going to like them.

Dwarven Axe Enhancements --> Change to only affect Dwarven Axes.

Dwarven Armor Mastery --> Change to Dwarven Armored Agility. (i.e. Reduce Armor Check Penalty instead of increase Max Dex)

Dwarven Spell Defense --> Change like Halfling Luck to be three lines, one for each save.

Dwarven Tactics --> Actually, I don't have a huge problem with this one. It seems to fit alright. But if dwarves still seem overpowered after the above, you could make this three lines, like they are for fighters.

[Kerrn_Siff]

why does anything need to be fair?

[Kire]

Heh funny thing is when i played PnP for a month or two one of the players was a dwarf and i was an elf. He wouldn't talk to me directly while we were playing. why?

Because Dorfs hate elfs! (heh ok MT help me if im wrong)

~Kire

[honkuimushi]

My first choice would be to improve the choices for the other races before we go removing enhancements for dwarves. Halflings and especially humans need some love. If we have to weaken dwarves, I would prefer to reduce the maximum ranks or tweak the AP cost rather than removing whole lines. Or limiting the the enhancement to dwarven axes. That would leave it much weaker than the elven line, especially because you need martial weapon profociency to use any axe without penalty. Elves get all their weapons as simple weapons.

Dwarves don't need any thing added right now, but I would like to see a few more for the elves like the ones I mentioned above. I would especially like to see more enhancements that differentialte Valenar and and Aerenal elves. Maybe even make them seperate races. Drow are also pretty good.

Warforged are pretty good, but I would like to see a few changes to Healer's Friend. It used to go up to about 40 or 50%. But now it's 15% for 2 AP, 20% for 4AP, and 25% for 6(?!) AP. For those costs and level requirements(1, 5, 9), I would at least like to see the interval increased to 10%. 6 AP for 5%? Thats a measly 5 extra hp off of a 100 hp Heal. That's less than a Repair light potion for 1.5 levels worth of APs. A wizard can get a 30% bonus to repair and force spells at level 7 for 3 APs. I realize that warforged have been beefed up, but it just seems like a good line is being wasted. (Didn't mean to get off on a tangent.)

It's humans and halflings that really need a boost. Don't bring dwarves down, bring the other races up.
As enhancements are added, the limit on the number of APs we have will enforce a balance better than anything else we can devise.

[Hvymetal]

why does anything need to be fair?

The counterpoint of course would be why shouldn't it?

[Vorn]

I]
Dwarven Armor Mastery --> Change to Dwarven Armored Agility. (i.e. Reduce Armor Check Penalty instead of increase Max Dex)

Or, include Dwarven Armored Agility and make it so Dwarven Armor Mastery is exclusive with Fighter Armor Mastery.

[REKCEDER]

The counterpoint of course would be why shouldn't it?

It is fair...you too, my friend, can play a dwarf. Fair just means we all have access to the same stuff. You, however, have chosen an elf for flavor reasons and now seek to have a "dwarf in disguise". If all of the options are exactly equal we will end up with one look, one template and only a single character class. The variations in choices are part of what makes the game fun. Please don't seek to change that. Just go back and play a Dwarf.

That said, I've played both. It's the player behind the toon that makes 'em "uber".

[KoboldKiller]

I have a Elf pure Pali. He has no problem keeping up with the Dwarves as I have all the Longsword enhancements. While there are some balance issues in this game it should not be an issue. There are balance issues in all games including PnP. That is the whole point. The idea is to create something you enjoy. If you are getting to wrapped up with the haves and have nots then you might be taking things to seriously. I see too much emphasis on what that race can do and what this race can't. Too much emphasis on kill counts. Play the game to have fun. If you want to play an Elf fighter than do so. If the Dwarf makes a better fighter due to enhancements so what? The whole idea is this, did the quest get completed, did you have fun and did you contribute to the success, if so then who cares what the Dwarf did? Anyway this is just MHO take it for what you want, I for one love my Pali and will continue to us him to games end.

[parvo]

So, I'm making this post because I've found a rather frustrating inconsistency in the power of dwarf fighters, versus fighters of other races, mostly elves. In my opinion, elves should be equals at least to dwarves in martial skills by the setting of Eberron, however the sets of abilities do not accurately represent this. Dwarf Enhancements are (for the most part) Just plain better than their elven equivalents. Don't believe me, or don't feel I'm fairly accounting for all factors? Take a look:

Firstly, Dwarven Axe Damage and Dwarven Axe Attack are grossly overpowered enhancements. Where an elf gets bonus attack and damage to a longsword and rapier, a dwarf gets battleaxe, throwing axe, greataxe, handaxe and DWARVEN AXE. Both enhancements are 2 points at first rank and 4 at second rank. How are they the same number of points when a dwarf gets almost three times the weapons where the damage is applicable, especially when one such weapon does a d10 of damage, meaning even if it were that ONE weapon, which they gain as a free proficiency, it should still be a more expensive enhancement as d10+2 is better than d8+2 without a shadow of a doubt.

Secondly, Dwarven Armored Mastery. Why does it even exist? Dwarves aren't meant to be as agile a race as elves, why are they more adept at moving in armor? It should for NO reason stack with Fighter Armor Mastery and I have been told that it does. This means that no matter what, a race of slower moving, broader creatures will always be harder to hit in melee. And it means that more characters will have an absurdly high AC. +5 Mithril for an elf only works up to a 22 Dexterity, why should it work up to a 26 for a Dwarf? If it has to be in the game, it should cost DOUBLE the points it does now because it stacks with the pre-existing enhancement Fighter's Armor Mastery. Max elf AC: 51 (+13 armor, +6 dex, +9 shield, +5 protection, +3 dodge, +3 natural). Max dwarf AC: 52 (+13 armor, +7 dex, +9 shield, +5 Protection, +3 dodge, +3 natural) That's not that absurd by it's self, but when you take the +5 Mithril Tower Shield out of the picture, and adjust to keep the highest AC possible, Dwarves will have a 51 AC as well, but since an elf has to use a tower shield to attain that, the dwarf will have 2 better to-hit. Why should it be more rewarding for a dwarf to be dexterous than an elf?

Next, Dwarven Spell Defense. The most comparable elven enhancement is Elven Enchantment Resistance. This doesn't take the lengthy explaination of the other enhancements. +1 to all saves versus spells is better than +1 to all saves versus enchantment spells. Why do they cost the same number of action points?

And lastly, Dwarven Tactics. Another enhancement that stacks with the fighter ability that does the same. This means all Dwarf DC's will be up to 3 higher than their elf counter-parts. Three enhancements wrapped into one should not cost 2 points per rank. It's three enhancements and should cost three, if it should even be included at all.

Fighters have several roles in a party, and to summarize the effects of the enhancements I've given, I'll give reasons for the clear dwarven superiority in each.

DPS:
When dual-weilding weapons Dwarves have better to-hits and to-damage rolls than elves, as their Axe Attack and Axe Damage can potentially work for both main-hand and off-hand attacks (Without incurring a penalty). Weapon Focus: Slashing applies to both axes, as does Improved Critical and Weapon Specialization. For elves to reach a similiar bonus, they'll have to pull a named rapier out of a VERY difficult quest, and they'll have to give up four die-sides of damage (d6 on rapier, versus d10 on dwarven axe) unless the plan on spending double the feats on both Slashing and Piercing weapon specialization, focus and critical, even still they'll be shorted two die-faces of damage (D8 on a longsword versus D10 on a dwarven axe).

Two-handed fighters cannot even be compared, a dwarf with the same set of feats will gain +2 higher damage and to-hit while using a greataxe, and will be compensated for the lack of shield better by a higher armor class.

Shield-using fighters will obviously be stunted, as the dwarven one-hander will be using a weapon that's simply better. D8+2 versus D10+2 doesn't take much more explaination than that. Furthermore, as was stated earlier, a dwarf using a setup with a 51 AC will not need a Tower shield to attain it, so they will have either a +2 better to-hit than the elf, or +1 better AC than the elf, depending on the setup that the dwarf chooses.

Technical:
Dwarf fighters hands down have better trip, stun and sunder DC's with their enhancements. In addition, the best vertigo item in the game, Serrulae, is an axe, meaning that dwarves will gain an additional +2 to-hit and +2 to-damage over elves using a manuver heavy build as well.

Tanking:
Dwarves have better saving throws, better damage per second, more HP and a higher potential AC, making them clearly superior tanks. In addition they can gain shield mastery, granting them additional damage reduction over an elf, and making them once again superior tanks.

Further than that, I'd like to avoid comparing enhancements, as the rest that the races get are on-par. Elves make better Wizards, whereas Dwarves make better clerics. This is fine, even if a bit frustrating since my first toon is an elf cleric. However, elven search and the like make poor substitutes for the dwarf combat enhancements, which make a more effective character rather than just allowing a rogue to place more skill points into haggle, jump, or some other realatively useless skill.

I'd really like to be able to not feel like I wasted my time getting an elf fighter up to 14th level, but I'm starting to feel as though I did, and I've begun to wonder why anyone bothers making any fighter that ISN'T a dwarf.

This is a very shortsided view of things. Elves make great Warriors. They have many advantages to use.

[MysticTheurge]

Because Dorfs hate elfs! (heh ok MT help me if im wrong)

Well, not quite as much in Eberron as in, say, Tolkein. But you're always free to play a dwarf who dislikes elves.

My first choice would be to improve the choices for the other races before we go removing enhancements for dwarves.

Yeah. That'd be my first choice too. But they really need to get on the ball with it.

And stop giving dwarves additional bonuses (like the Toughness change) until things are a bit more even.

Or, include Dwarven Armored Agility and make it so Dwarven Armor Mastery is exclusive with Fighter Armor Mastery.

I actually looked earlier (after posting) and dwarves do actually get Armor Agility already.

But yeah, even making it so Dwarven Armor Mastery didn't stack with Fighter's would be a nice improvement. It'd mean dwarven non-fighters (Barbarians, Clerics, Paladins, Rangers, Bards) could benefit from it fairly significantly, but it wouldn't allow Dwarven Fighters to go over the top with AC.

[Makdar]

I say we nerf every class and race in the game a little. That why no one will be left feeling unjustified.

Sound good?