Monks and Combat expertise

[Riggs]

The paper rules state monks can take as their bonus feats at 1/2/6 one of several feats, combat expertise being one of them - without needing the prerequisites for those feats.

So a monk can take ce and not need a 13 int.

On risia monks do need a 13 int to take ce as a bonus feat.

Monks already essentially have 4 prime stats that they have to spread points around in. Adding in extra limits considering they already lost flury of blows is a bit much. (as I posted in another thread, flurry = faster attacks with a lower to hit, not 'more bab' that means slower 4th and 5th attacks).

Change by design? or oversight.

[Inspire]

If You Want The +5 Ac, Your Going To Have To Sacrafice Something, Esp. For Monks Who Will Undoubtably Have The Highest Ac In Game. Giving It To Them For Free Would Be Overpowered For Sure.

Edit: Just Like Power Attack, 13Str, Otherwise You'd See Halfling Monks With 6/8Str And 20Dex Getting The Advantage Of +5 Damage.

[Qzipoun]

The paper rules state monks can take as their bonus feats at 1/2/6 one of several feats, combat expertise being one of them

I just checked d20srd.org and it doesn't seem like it:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm#bonusFeat

"At 1st level, a monk may select either Improved Grapple or Stunning Fist as a bonus feat. At 2nd level, she may select either Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrows as a bonus feat. At 6th level, she may select either Improved Disarm or Improved Trip as a bonus feat. A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them."

Says combat reflexes, not expertise.

[Borror0]

The paper rules state monks can take as their bonus feats at 1/2/6 one of several feats, combat expertise being one of them - without needing the prerequisites for those feats.

You're wrong. Combat Expertise isn't on the list.

Bonus Feat

At 1st level, a monk may select either Improved Grapple or Stunning Fist as a bonus feat. At 2nd level, she may select either Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrows as a bonus feat. At 6th level, she may select either Improved Disarm or Improved Trip as a bonus feat. A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them.

It's intended, in their Dev Diary: The Way of the Monk, Turbine clearly states that you have to meet the prerequisiste for the feats you will take. That means they are putting that as a balance for having a wider selection to pick from, I assume. I won't say it's a bad or good idea. The Int cost sure is a lot for a class that has to spread itself very thin, but then again, Combat Expterise is one of those feats that should exist anyway.

[parvo]

The paper rules state monks can take as their bonus feats at 1/2/6 one of several feats, combat expertise being one of them - without needing the prerequisites for those feats.

So a monk can take ce and not need a 13 int.

On risia monks do need a 13 int to take ce as a bonus feat.

Monks already essentially have 4 prime stats that they have to spread points around in. Adding in extra limits considering they already lost flury of blows is a bit much. (as I posted in another thread, flurry = faster attacks with a lower to hit, not 'more bab' that means slower 4th and 5th attacks).

Change by design? or oversight.

Four prime stats huh? The Paladin's cry you a river...

[Riggs]

Hmm...thats what I get for posting at 4am...reading skillz suffer.

oops

[Angelus_dead]

You're wrong. Combat Expertise isn't on the list.

No, you're wrong. The D20 SRD does not have the entire list. The monk class, like the fighter class, has had its options for bonus feats expanded in other D&D books. Page 80 of Oriental Adventures gives monks the option to take Combat Expertise in the bonus feat slot. However, it also requires them to meet the regular prerequisite ability score.

[fatherpirate]

Turbine only SELECTIVELY follows PnP rules

it is prob as intended

[vyvy3369]

Page 80 of Oriental Adventures gives monks the option to take Combat Expertise in the bonus feat slot.

Oriental Adventures is 3.0.

Edit: Oh, and in case you feel the need to argue that DDO should be OA compliant, IIRC it also prohibits monks from wearing a bunch of magic items such as things to boost your stats.

[Kadagan]

Last I checked Ebberon isn't an oriental campeign setting..


Then again... it may look a bit oriental by the end of the day today.

[Molotai]

Because theres certainly nothing oriental in appearance within the game, nor anything foreign by any regard. (COUGH TITAN COUGH). There is an exceptional amount of exotic content, furthermore monks are not strictly oriental, its where the base was derived from. Plenty of small town villages teach as well, and then some. So having one of the Core Classes of DnD, in the game, makes sense. Imagine.

[Borror0]

No, you're wrong. The D20 SRD does not have the entire list.

I was going by core books, which DDO seemed to be based on.

[Eladrin]

We chose to use the Martial Arts Feat optional rule from Oriental Adventures, which greatly expands the list of feat choices for a monk at levels 1, 2, and 6, but adds the requirement that prerequisites be met.

[creithne]

Out of curiosity...for a class that is already spread thin on stats, why the stat pre-req for CE, when there's another class that's not so spread thin on stats, that gets the 2wf feats without having to meet the pre-reqs? Seems outta whack, but maybe that's how it is in PnP for rangers, and if that's the case, I guess I have no problems with it...

[Borror0]

We chose to use the Martial Arts Feat optional rule from Oriental Adventures, which greatly expands the list of feat choices for a monk at levels 1, 2, and 6, but adds the requirement that prerequisites be met.

Yay! I'm right.

[GramercyRiff]

Out of curiosity...for a class that is already spread thin on stats, why the stat pre-req for CE, when there's another class that's not so spread thin on stats, that gets the 2wf feats without having to meet the pre-reqs? Seems outta whack, but maybe that's how it is in PnP for rangers, and if that's the case, I guess I have no problems with it...

Monks don't have to meet the prequisites of their bonus feats in pnp. The main reason is just as you stated...MAD (multiple attribute dependency). Monks rely on too many stats; it's one of the reasons they suck in pnp (unless you multiclass with arcane or divine caster). It's a gross mistake to force monks to meet prereq's of their bonus feats.

And for the record, OA isn't 3.5 material. However variant monk fighting styles are.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/cl...FightingStyles

That gives a fair amount of variant feats. And no, you don't have to meet the prereqs of the bonus feats. This is the source that should've been used to expand monk feat choices.

If you're going to force us to spend in INT to get CE, then you should put in Kung Fu Genius, a feat that switches WIS for INT for monk related abilities.