The Actual Clerical Archetypes and How they Measure Up

[Grenfell]

A nice post in general Gren but I actualy think your points of difference in the "types" of clerics is off base.

#1: A battle cleric can have more than one non cleric level and still be pretty much indistinquishable form other cleris in general capeabilities. They can heal and buff a full party as well as throw some offensive or control spells. There are not key 8th level spells at the moment that would make a lot of sense for cleric that put level up into str over wis (which they would have to do in order to keep up with melee classes). I'd say Heal and Blade Barrier are the key high level cleric spells that set you appart from a fighter wtih healing (like my Cleric 7 Fighter 7 Ranger 2, or a paladin or the like who will have much less mana and clearly weaker spells). I'd say you can go at least 3 classes deep in multi classing and still claim a primarily cleric build, especialy since at level 20 you would still have 9th level spells with that set up. Otherwise its like saying any cleric not capped isn't a cleric yet.

#2: The reason (as I see it) you don't include the generalist (or as I call them) generic cleirc in your list is because you so badly wattered down what a battle cleric is about.

I thought about #1 long and hard, sigtrent. In the end I've decided that losing your top level spells is simply not a tradeoff that a "cleric" would make. Now, at lvl 20, that becomes a non-issue, at which point the definitions might need revising. But it's easier to think of someone willing to sacrifice a whole level of spellcasting as a Tank-That-Heals, rather than a Battle Cleric.

Subtle distinction, but a real one. My Battle Cleric can cast Mass Heal when the cap goes to 18; the Tank-That-Heals cannot. It's a big difference.

As for #2, as I've explained above, I consider all "generalists" to be Battle Clerics, aka, Clerics.

/gren

[Grenfell]

I figured I should address your disillusionment with how Battleclerics are viewed and how effective they are in both parties and solo efforts.

I've played all of the aforementioned cleric types and IMO there is only one area that the Battlecleric is more effective....beating on the shroud portals. Seriously, what other time in the game could a battlecleric outsolo a caster. Most parties would gladly take either the caster or heabot over a battlecleric.

In the end game the battle cleric may have a better AC (which counts for nothing) and slightly more Hp, but most will be lacking behind the others when it comes to mana. I would even venture that most battleclerics could be replaced by a dragonmarked halfling or Pure well geared Pally.

If you enjoy playing battlelclerics then go on and enjoy it, but lets not kid ourselves when it comes to who can solo or get into parties easier.

Wutinni -- I've played a lot of clerics. Here's how it comes down.

The mana difference is minimal, at best, and is far more dependent on gear than on stats and feats. My heals hit for exactly the same as the healbot; my BB does exactly the same damage as the Caster Cleric's. The difference is, BC's can melee; most Caster Clerics cannot. On the flipside, Casters can Destruct and Banish seemingly at will; BC's cannot.

All in all, while mana lasts, and the mob is vulnerable to spells, the Caster cleric holds a slight edge. But vs., for example, Undead (invulnerable to nearly all clerical CC spells and instakill), the offensive output is the same: Emp/Max BB. Arguably, my BC can throw down the BB and also swing a weapon thereby adding a tiny slight edge -- but I rarely need to resort to such things as long as I have mana and BB can be thrown down.

What other time could a BC outsolo a caster in the endgame?

1. Beholder
2. Out of mana
3. Mobs with Evasion

Caster clerics do great, but their offense is directly tied to their manapool. The difference is maybe 150-175 SP's assuming equivalent gear. That's maybe 1.5-2 Emp/Maxed BB's. That means from a solo standpoint, the BC can wander the earth, bashing things, and using scrolls to heal up -- Caster Cleric cannot. Is that a major edge? No. Is it a slight edge? Yes.

You can believe what you want, but I have both, I play both, and I know what I know. If you think about it logically, you'll see it as well.

As for what "most parties" will take... um, who gives a @#*%? I don't join pugs unless I have to, and if I have to, I'd much rather not be "taken" by a bunch of babies who need their diapers changed and hands held. FWIW, the few times I have clicked "Join" on a PUG on my BC, I have never been turned down for any quest. And seriously, it's not that hard to keep a party upright in the endgame, unless the rest of the party just completely blows.

Seriously, are you clerics having that much trouble getting into parties?

/gren

[moorewr]

Ringos, is like me, a generalist. Moore is a generalist. Cow is a generalist. Mediclady is a genrealist. and so on. THe differance between us and the newbee players in the harbor isn't the levels, BUT the expiriance and wisdom that comes from that. With that knowledge we can make tanking clerics that can heal. Or casting clerics that can heal. Or healing clerics that can cast. Defining roles that do not need to be defined is only confusing.

Actually, the correct archetype for me is 'n00b.' Many people make this same mistake.

[sirgog]

I figured I should address your disillusionment with how Battleclerics are viewed and how effective they are in both parties and solo efforts.

I've played all of the aforementioned cleric types and IMO there is only one area that the Battlecleric is more effective....beating on the shroud portals. Seriously, what other time in the game could a battlecleric outsolo a caster. Most parties would gladly take either the caster or heabot over a battlecleric.

In the end game the battle cleric may have a better AC (which counts for nothing) and slightly more Hp, but most will be lacking behind the others when it comes to mana. I would even venture that most battleclerics could be replaced by a dragonmarked halfling or Pure well geared Pally.

If you enjoy playing battlelclerics then go on and enjoy it, but lets not kid ourselves when it comes to who can solo or get into parties easier.

Where is a battlecleric better than a healbot?

Try one of the key endgame battles, Shroud parts 4 and 5.

Four battleclerics there is much, much better than 3 Clr16s and a fighter. Equal healing capacity, 3-3½ times the DPS. When I make Shroud groups, I always look for (as first preference) three or four battleclerics, then when they aren't on I reluctantly accept healbot types (or offensive casters, which are excellent builds in almost all quests in the game but don't differ much from healbots in the Shroud. A group with 4 battleclerics, 1 warchanter bard, 6 melee/ranged DPS and 1 Arcane is IMO the perfect group for Shroud 4-5 - it's the sort of party that can beat part 4 in one pass.


Generally, I prefer grouping with one offensive caster or healbot cleric over one battlecleric unless the BC is excellent. But given a chance, I love grouping with 2 battleclerics or 1 BC and one offensive caster.

[Hoogly]

I think the best and most simple message for a new cleric is this: make sure your focus is healing first when in a group as they will be expecting this of you and it is the defining role of the cleric class. The fact that your cleric can be very capable in other ways is great but the trick is to learn to use those abilities in ways that enhance the group's chances of success in whatever you are doing while never neglecting your responsibily first and foremost as a healer.

It's really not any more complicated than that. It you don't want to heal people you really need to roll another class that is going to be better suited to how you'd enjoy playing the game. A big plus here is people won't hate you for not healing them when you could and should ;-)

I rolled a cleric first, didn't care for him as a first character here for a variety of reasons although not wanting to heal was never one of them. Nonetheless, I'd always wanted to play a ranger so now I am and I love him. I do have a good deal of respect for the clerics in this game who play well, regardless of their chosen playstyle preferences. It's not an easy task and it's often a thankless one to boot. Anyone who's ever played a healer and is now playing something else though sure appreciates you I can assure you of that. ;-)

[DoctorWhofan]

-washing my hands-

I'm done.

[Hoogly]

Why the grumpy faces?

[sativathered]

If your just healing, What in the world are you spending your mana on that you need to drink Potions? Seriously, If your using so much mana that you need to switch to scrolls, wands, and consume potions, the group is NOT ready for the quest your in. Thats not smart play.

the Caster cleric ends up spending more because very few parties know how to use a blade barrier and offensive casting spells liek destruction eat throughmana fast. they are much more likely to resort to scrolls and potions to suplement healing.

THe Battle Cleric not only has mana expenses, but weaponry and armor expenses as well.... P5's dont come cheap.... If you are going to melee with your cleric, you better have em.

Yet again the Battle cleric portion of the discussion has been reduced to deciding that ALL "Battle" clerics are bad at being clerics. What you describe in your argument is NOT a "Battle CLeric" its a Bad player.

the shroud comes to mind for scrolls. no matter the group that you are in, you will need them. and it doesn't mean that the cleric is a bad cleric, or "the group is not ready for the quest." or is there another way around that in your opinion?

[Braegan]

I love the cleric boards - no other sub-forum get so riled up as this one! Really I don't think there is or ever can be a set listing of how a cleric can be built or played, but Gren did a fine job with coming up with a somewhat complete overview. I still love how there is so much hate over battle-clerics. Cry me a river for being jaded by that one tank who has cleric levels who skewed your view of anyone with a ftr/pal mixed with their clr class selection. I used to get that sort of **** all the time when I leveled Phalse up (for a second time) "You're not a battle-cleric are ya?" And my response was always: I am cleric 1st, melee 2nd. Personally I can't play a build that is useless without others. I play my role but when alone I can survive. To me a heal-bot is useless. When out of mana what can you do except drink a mana pot or cry that you're OOM? A battle-cleric can swap out potency items and wield some heavy heavy hitting weapons and knock mo-fos out! I do it all the time, and I know I am not alone in that. It is all about versatility, I can be a heal-bot during an end-boss raid, I can be the secondary tank doing nice damage through the quest, and everything inbetween. And with the exception of the shroud I have been the only cleric on every given raid so far. So please go on and talk about how you would only want a pure cleric on your run, because anyone who knows me, knows they are fine with me being the only cleric and if there is another cleric then they know that I cut loose and tear things up.

-Brae

Post Script: If you have had a bad experience remember the name, not the build.

[Angelus_dead]

That's no cleric; that's a tank that casts spells. By mixing that non-cleric into the mix, Wutinni was able to reach wrong conclusions about what's what.

Clearly, you have invented your own personal definition for the word "cleric" which is separate from that used in the D&D and DDO games. As this forum is meant for discussion of DDO, you are out of place here, and your commentary appears incoherent.

[Hvymetal]

Hmmm guess I fall in the BC camp, I really don't see that much need to focus exclusivly on healing to still be efefctive at healing. It's kind of like Rogues and DPS, healing does not need a bunch of additional feats/enhancements ect. to make it work (esp. once you get the Heal spell). A few enhancements and a few items and my BC heals just fine, why not focus some of your build into other areas so that you are more versatile and usefull in other situations? Seems like a no-brainer t0 me, but then again I am primarily a Rogue player and used to building for and utilizing versatility.

When it comes down to it the label doesn't really matter, a versatile Cleric is going to generally be better able to function in different situations that may come up from time to time that are unforseen. However, labels have already been applied by the community as a whole so we are forced to use labels to be able to better communicate what the main focus of a particular Cleric may be. As a caveat, just because a Cleric focuses on one particular area more than others it does not by any means make them uneffective at the other two.

[sirgog]

the shroud comes to mind for scrolls. no matter the group that you are in, you will need them. and it doesn't mean that the cleric is a bad cleric, or "the group is not ready for the quest." or is there another way around that in your opinion?

Recently had a group that was so good in the Shroud, the clerics were able to try to steal the kill in part 5 with Cometfall and Harm. Noone used a single scroll in that run except for one Heroes' Feast scroll before the shrine in part 3 - and that was because the clerics forgot to load it and someone looted one of the scroll. (The clerics did have me as an arcane caster casting Reconstruct from SP as support).

Part 4, the Fiend went down in 1.4 passes.

This group was the exception, of course, not the rule.

[sigtrent]

Subtle distinction, but a real one. My Battle Cleric can cast Mass Heal when the cap goes to 18; the Tank-That-Heals cannot. It's a big difference.

As for #2, as I've explained above, I consider all "generalists" to be Battle Clerics, aka, Clerics.

/gren

I've a feeling that were going straight to 20 next time, but well see.

See... thats the problem wtih yoru disticntion... there isn't one. You arn't really including battle clerics in your descriptions becasue you don't think they are clerics. Anyone wearing the cleric icon is a cleric in my book and in most peoples estimations. Your Battle cleric really is a generalist and by not including the real battle clerics your guide, in my opinion, falls short of covering teh real archatypes avalable for the class.

[Braegan]

I've a feeling that were going straight to 20 next time, but well see.

See... thats the problem wtih yoru disticntion... there isn't one. You arn't really including battle clerics in your descriptions becasue you don't think they are clerics. Anyone wearing the cleric icon is a cleric in my book and in most peoples estimations. Your Battle cleric really is a generalist and by not including the real battle clerics your guide, in my opinion, falls short of covering teh real archatypes avalable for the class.

A Battle cleric heals. A character with the cleric icon that does not heal does not deserve the "cleric" title. So I am sorry but I agree with Gren in that those types deserve no classification in cleric discussion. Phalse is a BC through and through but like other real BCs she heals, buffs and fights. The guy/gal that has the cleric icon and does not use the build to it's fullest is not worthy of being called a cleric is any way shape or form and should have just rolled a Paladin. A BC can be all the party needs as far as a cleric is needed and can help out in dps, and finally won't be useless when out of mana. The folks that have cleric levels and don't use those awesome spells to their advantage are not "clerics."

So as far as I see it (and many others) a Battle-Cleric is defined as a cleric first, a meele combatant 2nd. The wanna-bes and/or everything else that has a cleric icon but does not heal is a tank with mana ( much like a warforged fighter with a level of sorc/wiz).

[esoitl]

i realize that you are trying to clear things up a bit more but i have to disagree in some areas

my cleric is honestly a mismash that i created very early in my DDO lifetime and it was therefore based more upon a PnP build with not great stats
while i can't melee as a battle cleric, don't technically fit the caster build, and am not a strict healbot: i generally have a bit of all 3 mixed in and will adapt to the role as i see fit and whatever the party needs

at the same time i don't find it terribly difficult to land spells such as destruction or slay living nor bypass SR checks except on elite content so saying that the caster cleric has an edge due to heighten and SP is a bit off IMO(i run neither)

this is almost an impossible comparison IMO as you can easily make builds that are 50/50 or even all around builds that encompass more than one aspect or type of cleric

[moorewr]

A character with the cleric icon that does not heal does not deserve the "cleric" title.

So.. you don't care at all what a cleric is in PnP?

[Darth_Sizzle]

DON'T TELL ME HOW TO PLAY MY TOON!!1!!11!!1!1!!

lol, sorry, I couldn't resist.

Edit: But seriously, don't tell someone how to play their character (unless they ask). The whole problem here is assigning types, different builds do different things & we all know this. My #1 favorite thing about this game is being able to make a character how ever I want. No matter what is said in this thread people who don't/won't group with a "Battle Cleric" still won't, and those that do still will.

[sigtrent]

A Battle cleric heals. A character with the cleric icon that does not heal does not deserve the "cleric" title. So I am sorry but I agree with Gren in that those types deserve no classification in cleric discussion. Phalse is a BC through and through but like other real BCs she heals, buffs and fights. The guy/gal that has the cleric icon and does not use the build to it's fullest is not worthy of being called a cleric is any way shape or form and should have just rolled a Paladin. A BC can be all the party needs as far as a cleric is needed and can help out in dps, and finally won't be useless when out of mana. The folks that have cleric levels and don't use those awesome spells to their advantage are not "clerics."

You apparentenly didn't quite get the jist of what I am talking about. There is no law that says if you have less than 15 cleric levels at 16 cap you can't heal people or won't. It just means you built a character that is designed to be good at fighting in melee or ranged combat and sacrificed some of your spell casting to do so. Normaly it isn't the healing they have sacrificed but the crowd control spell casting like destruction or greater command because wisdom is a bit lower making those spells unreliable for them. If anything a battle cleric pretty much only casts buffs and heals.

Almost no battle cleric in their right mind is going to deny themselves the use of the Heal spell and as many have stated it is the primary healing spell used at high level. Cleric is a class and there is a range of possibilities in what you can do with it. Ignoring an option because you don't happen to like it... makes for an incomplete discussion.

So as far as I see it (and many others) a Battle-Cleric is defined as a cleric first, a meele combatant 2nd. The wanna-bes and/or everything else that has a cleric icon but does not heal is a tank with mana ( much like a warforged fighter with a level of sorc/wiz).

Who said a Cleric 13 Fighter 3 isn't going to heal anyone?

[Braegan]

So.. you don't care at all what a cleric is in PnP?

PnP is a whole other kinda beast. Like a previous poster I based a few characters on some of my PnP characters and it doesn't always crossover as well.

[Braegan]

You apparentenly didn't quite get the jist of what I am talking about. There is no law that says if you have less than 15 cleric levels at 16 cap you can't heal people or won't. It just means you built a character that is designed to be good at fighting in melee or ranged combat and sacrificed some of your spell casting to do so. Normaly it isn't the healing they have sacrificed but the crowd control spell casting like destruction or greater command because wisdom is a bit lower making those spells unreliable for them. If anything a battle cleric pretty much only casts buffs and heals.

Almost no battle cleric in their right mind is going to deny themselves the use of the Heal spell and as many have stated it is the primary healing spell used at high level. Cleric is a class and there is a range of possibilities in what you can do with it. Ignoring an option because you don't happen to like it... makes for an incomplete discussion.



Who said a Cleric 13 Fighter 3 isn't going to heal anyone?

Perhaps I did misunderstand your post. When you said the "real" battle clerics were not included I assumed you were in favor of including those with cleric levels that don't "cleric" - and yes they are out there I have had the dis-pleasure of grouping with them.