Monk build concepts

[Dungnmaster001]

i know that armor will make me uncentered i'm just not sure what abilities you loose while uncentered

You lose just about everything except wisdom to AC, (Also there seems to be a "centered" bonus AC also when I look at the AC breakdown)

No Ki Stances, No Ki Attacks, No Ki generated (well kinda useless without the attacks), Ki degrades quickly, No special abilities, No flurry of blows. You turn yourself into a medium BaB fighter with fewer feats.

[sigtrent]

Well, if you go Halfling with 13 Str and 17 Dex you can get power attack,

Well argued, although I assumed that a finesse build would neither start with 13(15 non halfling) str nor take power attack. I agree if you go that way, you should. But if you are going to go most of the way there... what is the argument for not turning around and going for str over dex? Is the AC break worth it? I can see it on halfling though and using the sneak attack... althoug to me, if you are going for damage, and you arn't pushing Cha/Diplomacy, is the sneak attack going to get much play? And if you are getting sneak attack it means you arn't pulling agro and at that poin why focus on AC so much?

I guess I'm still trying to get a graps of the genereral monk game plan in DDO. I need to get a feel for the special attacks and finishing moves which I have not seen in action yet.

[sigtrent]

i'm planning a monk 3/pally 17 (not final levels yet) intimivasionsaves tank for the free feats, evasion, saves and stances. couple of things i'm not sure of yet though, if you wear light armor do you loose the benefits of your stance, do you loose the benefits of the improved recovery enhancment, or any of the feats that you take for free at level 1 and 2?

I think you loose monk ac and the flurry of blows bonuses to bab and stance. Bonus feats and such are probably fine.

[Gol]

I think you loose monk ac and the flurry of blows bonuses to bab and stance. Bonus feats and such are probably fine.

The only way to lose AC bonuses is to don armor or a shield or be over your carrying weight limit.

[EinarMal]

Well argued, although I assumed that a finesse build would neither start with 13(15 non halfling) str nor take power attack. I agree if you go that way, you should. But if you are going to go most of the way there... what is the argument for not turning around and going for str over dex? Is the AC break worth it? I can see it on halfling though and using the sneak attack... althoug to me, if you are going for damage, and you arn't pushing Cha/Diplomacy, is the sneak attack going to get much play? And if you are getting sneak attack it means you arn't pulling agro and at that poin why focus on AC so much?

I guess I'm still trying to get a graps of the genereral monk game plan in DDO. I need to get a feel for the special attacks and finishing moves which I have not seen in action yet.

Well dex is more useful for a monk with improved evasion and solid AC, to me all finesse builds should be able to hit 13 strength and take power attack., but that is just me. Then the difference is really slight between the two in terms of DPS, but you still get the benefit of higher reflex saves, and AC in the monk's case. At end game blah blah AC might not mean that much on certain quests, but a Monk with 30 dex and 22 Wisdom should be able to hit 50 AC easily which is useful a lot of the time.

Feats are not that much of an issue for monks with the three bonus feats, and basically with a halfling starting with more than 13 strength starts to get expensive and monks have four stats to worry about.

So, that is why I ended up with the stats I did, good DPS with decent strength and power attack, but still getting +5 more to-hit out of weapon finesse and a nice reflex/AC bonus.

As far as why not just go strength over dex, the last tier of the wind stance requires 18 dex base and that stance is the most appealing, and to me I just can't afford to pump strength to the 14+ you would need to make it work.

[Litz]

As to Drow, I am somewhat peeved at their inclusion in the races of Stormreach as they are, because it seems that a good 70% of the population is a Drow, which is against their nature.

Not true. In eberron Drow are surface dwelers. Primarily in small tribe like groups in the jungles of Xen'Drik. Stormreach would certainly have a very big population of Drow either as residents or passers by. Granted though the DDO players overall didn't make thier coices because of PnP lore, but it happened to fall in line with the Eberron campeign setting.

as to monks I will be making a dex/finese build don't make sense to have monks that hit hard since Ki is based on how many times you hit (earth stance excluded). So really people want to nibble the mobs to death not pop them dead in one shot.. It'll also help keep agro on a fighter type.

[Rambin]

There are a few misconceptions that I have seen in several builds listed on the forums.

First of all, to those who are planning to spash a level of monk onto other classes to get the benifit of a monk stance . . . don't bother. You have to remain centered to use any of the stances and wearing armor of any kind, or holding a weapon other than a monk weapon (this includes wands and scrolls) makes you uncentered and you lose the ability to hold a stance. You also lose many of your other monk abilities such as monk speed, and wisdom bonus to AC.

Combat Expertise is usable by monks and can increase their AC. However, Combat Expertise only lasts until you cast a spell. If you are planning to get the benifit of combat expertise you will have to sacrifice the ability to do your special ki abilities since these abilities act as spells. When using any of your ki abilities it will knock combat expertise out and you will no longer recieve the extra AC unless you are constantly reactivating it after using abilities. Reactivating combat expertise after ki attacks has it's disadvantages too, this will break the chain leading to your finishing moves.

[Dark-Star]

Combat Expertise is usable by monks and can increase their AC. However, Combat Expertise only lasts until you cast a spell. If you are planning to get the benifit of combat expertise you will have to sacrifice the ability to do your special ki abilities since these abilities act as spells. When using any of your ki abilities it will knock combat expertise out and you will no longer recieve the extra AC unless you are constantly reactivating it after using abilities. Reactivating combat expertise after ki attacks has it's disadvantages too, this will break the chain leading to your finishing moves.

Didn't realize this, that's significant, basically making CE useless on a monk.

The hits just keep on coming

[Dungnmaster001]

Combat Expertise is usable by monks and can increase their AC. However, Combat Expertise only lasts until you cast a spell. If you are planning to get the benifit of combat expertise you will have to sacrifice the ability to do your special ki abilities since these abilities act as spells. When using any of your ki abilities it will knock combat expertise out and you will no longer recieve the extra AC unless you are constantly reactivating it after using abilities. Reactivating combat expertise after ki attacks has it's disadvantages too, this will break the chain leading to your finishing moves.

If this is true it's almost certainly a bug, If devs didn't want CE to be used by monks they wouldn't have given it as an optional bonus feat. Or if they didn't want it to be used they could have made it break monk stances. I'm logging in in a second to test this for myself since this really doesn't seem right.

edit: Just logged in made a level 1 human monk, the attacks don't break CE. I'll test more to see if the "finishing moves" do break stances but really they shouldn't.

edit2: OK final results are in: Finishing Moves DO break combat stances. This is in my opinion a major bug. I think it's due to the moves being mistakenly classified as spells and not abilities like the ki attacks (fire punch, etc). Bug reported it and I reccommend anyone else who uses or plans to use CE bug report it also. If they are going to let fire punch and the other ki attacks work with CE Why not the finishing moves.

[rimble]

If this is true it's almost certainly a bug, If devs didn't want CE to be used by monks they wouldn't have given it as an optional bonus feat. Or if they didn't want it to be used they could have made it break monk stances. I'm logging in in a second to test this for myself since this really doesn't seem right.

edit: Just logged in made a level 1 human monk, the attacks don't break CE. I'll test more to see if the "finishing moves" do break stances but really they shouldn't.

edit2: OK final results are in: Finishing Moves DO break combat stances. This is in my opinion a major bug. I think it's due to the moves being mistakenly classified as spells and not abilities like the ki attacks (fire punch, etc). Bug reported it and I reccommend anyone else who uses or plans to use CE bug report it also. If they are going to let fire punch and the other ki attacks work with CE Why not the finishing moves.

Thanks man, my Halfling IntimiMonk keeps getting bad news and he doesn't even exist yet, hehe.

[sigtrent]

The only way to lose AC bonuses is to don armor or a shield or be over your carrying weight limit.

Very good to know. Thanks

[sigtrent]

As far as why not just go strength over dex, the last tier of the wind stance requires 18 dex base and that stance is the most appealing, and to me I just can't afford to pump strength to the 14+ you would need to make it work.

I agree that air stance for a number of reasons is looking like the best of them from most perspectives.

[EinarMal]

I agree that air stance for a number of reasons is looking like the best of them from most perspectives.

Except it seems like it turns out Air stance and Haste don't stack making dex monks dead before they started....please ignore my previous suggestions

A real bummer....

[Gratch]

Okay... this is my take on the Halfling Ranger 6, Monk 10 Tempest, TWF-Kama-Finesse, WHIRLWIND build...

Halfling Monk 10/Ranger 6
 Str 12 (06) +1 tome (for PA) +6 item = 19 (+2 tome for 20)
 Dex 18 (10) +2 favor tome + 6 item +2 ranger +2 halfling + 4Lvl = 34
 Con 14 (06) +6 item = 20
 Int 12 (04) +2 tome = 14
 Wis 14 (06) +3 monk +1 tome +6 item = 24
 Cha 08 (00) = 8

 1: R1 B1  (FE: Undead, Bow Str), Dodge
	Use +2 Int Tome, +1 Str Tome
 2: M1 B1  Mobility
 3: M2 B2  (Evasion), Finesse, CE
 4: M3 B3
 5: R2 B4  (TWF, RS)
 6: R3 B5  (diehard), SA
 7: M4 B6
 8: R4 B7
 9: R5 B8  (FE: Evil Outsdier), IC: Slash
10: M5 B8  (Purity of Body)
11: M6 B9  PA
12: M7 B10 (wholeness of body), Whirlwind
13: M8 B11
14: M9 B11 (Improved Evasion)
15: R6 B12 (Many Shot, ITWF), GTWF
16: M10 B13

The B# listing is the current BAB/level since a few feats have BAB reqs.  
I sort of mingled the levels of Monk and Ranger in order to keep up full skill ranks of:
Concentration, Tumble, Jump, Diplomacy, you also get about 15 ranks into Hide, MS, and Balance with 4 pts into spot,listen or heal at L1.

And yes... I've had 2+ years to save up a +2 int tome and some nice kamas.  The int tome is there for an extra skill point per level and CE qual.

Relevant Enhancements:
Monk: +3 wisdom
Ranger: +2 dex
Halfling: +2 dex
Ranger: Tempest 1
Ranger: Favored Attack 1
Ranger: Favored Damage 2
Halfling Guile IV
Halfling Cunning
Monk Enhancements...

While the PA and CE seem to work at cross purposes... I figure while vorping trash mobs, you're using CE and when it comes to fiends, red nameds, aberrations, etc... you kick over to PA and DPS. Plus, situational manyshot... and whirlwind for no other reason than it looks cool on a monk style and you've already bought all the prereq feats (also good for grabbing aggro if you're CE'ed).

Did I mess up the feat progression at all... and is it trying to do too many things? Though maybe not the pit fiend beat down... I still think it would be *fun*.

[ehcsztein]

Okay... this is my take on the Halfling Ranger 6, Monk 10 Tempest, TWF-Kama-Finesse, WHIRLWIND build...

I am doing a similar halfling whirlwind-tempest-monk thingie but slightly different..

Halfling 8 monk / 6 ranger / 2 fighter (12 monk @ 20)

@16 will be...

STR= 26 [Start @ 16 ( +1 tome/ +1 ftr / +6 item / +2 rams) = 26]
DEX= 27 [Start @ 15 ((+1 @ lvl4 / +1 tome / +2 rgr / +2 halfling / +6 item) = 27] (28+ @ lvl 18)
CON= 20 [Start @ 10 (+1 @ lvl 12&16 / +2 tome / +6 item) = 20]
INT = 20 [Start @ 14 (+6 item) = 20]
WIS = 24 [Start @ 14 (+1 @ lvl 8 / +1 tome / +2 monk / +6 item) = 24] (going to 26 @ lvl 18)
CHA = 14 [Start @ 8 (+6 item) = 14]

Some relevant Enhancements...

Fighter Strength I
Fighter Haste I
Ranger Sprint II
Ranger Dex II
Hafling Dex II
Monk Wis II (III @ lvl 18)
Tempest
Guile
Cunning
Etc...

Still playing with some of the progression But @ lvl6 so far the base stats and tome expenditures listed above are set.

Hoping to have XP for lvl 9or10 banked before the MOD drops so I can just go into monk.

I have a whirlwind-tempest (9ranger / 7fighter) already which I enjoy quite a bit. The build above was suppose to be a 32 pt replacement toon for it but, as I made the new one lawful-good w/14 base Wisdom I decided to play it out as a monk just for kicks and giggles.

The other build I am working up will be a halfling 6 monk/ 6 pally / 6 rogue @ 18 But, this one gets a bit convoluted real quick :lol:

[valczir]

Not true. In eberron Drow are surface dwelers. Primarily in small tribe like groups in the jungles of Xen'Drik. Stormreach would certainly have a very big population of Drow either as residents or passers by. Granted though the DDO players overall didn't make thier coices because of PnP lore, but it happened to fall in line with the Eberron campeign setting.

Yes, they're surface dwellers, but (as you stated) they tend to stick around in small tribe-like groups. There would be a Drow population in Stormreach, but not a big one. And yeah, I know they don't make their choices because of lore - which is why I don't like the current implementation of Drow. I, personally, want an implementation that further encourages people to not always choose Drow.

I don't really mind all that much, I'm just being a typical human and trying to find things to complain about. Like Flurry of Blows. *grumble*

In the end, it's just a game, and I don't let myself be bothered by these things when playing. When I get on the forums, however, I become a cynical old man who assumes that any time someone does something I don't like, it's a personal insult.

Maybe I should stay away from the forums. Hrm.


Anyway, just out of curiosity, if I give con the finger and put all my points elsewhere, would it be a particularly bad idea to go with a str-based build? All this stuff about AC being meaningless in the end-game has made me nervous that I'll turn out to be a squishy warforged (and, since that's a paradox, it could make the universe explode, which would be bad). The character I'm trying to mold to fit this game would have a decent AC and an impressive bit of attack power (although he'd rely more on combat feats than on raw damage to get the job done - he likes to play with his food), but would have roughly laughable health. However, even though I want to play the character to the best of my ability and avoid trying to design him to be powerful, I would like to be able to hold my own in the end-game.

If going for strength (mostly because it increases the DC of combat feats) and wis (because it increases the DC of the other combat feats), then throwing in some dex and leaving con at 10 will end up with me being one-shotted by every being in the end-game, I'm not going to enjoy playing that character too much.

[Aladon]

Ok, thanks for all that data.

I've settled on two choices of monk builds, one str, one finesse.

I've chosen Dwarf because it augments my CON and Toughness but only takes CHA, a dumpstat.

The stat choices are:

Dwf S16,D16,C16,I8,W14,Ch6

or

Dwf S12,D18,C16,I8,W14,Ch6 (w/ +1 STR tome for PA)

I generally distrust finesse builds, but in this case a finesse build will damage the same as the str build except in the case of the highest AC mobs and gets a much higher AC and reflex save for evasion. My inclination is the finesse build is the best min/max choice of any I've seen.

Comments?

Aladon

[VonBek]

Yes, they're surface dwellers, but (as you stated) they tend to stick around in small tribe-like groups. There would be a Drow population in Stormreach, but not a big one. And yeah, I know they don't make their choices because of lore - which is why I don't like the current implementation of Drow. I, personally, want an implementation that further encourages people to not always choose Drow.

Urbanization. Those city Drow may not be welcome back home.

[D'rin]

Ok, thanks for all that data.

I've settled on two choices of monk builds, one str, one finesse.

I've chosen Dwarf because it augments my CON and Toughness but only takes CHA, a dumpstat.

The stat choices are:

Dwf S16,D16,C16,I8,W14,Ch6

or

Dwf S12,D18,C16,I8,W14,Ch6 (w/ +1 STR tome for PA)

I generally distrust finesse builds, but in this case a finesse build will damage the same as the str build except in the case of the highest AC mobs and gets a much higher AC and reflex save for evasion. My inclination is the finesse build is the best min/max choice of any I've seen.

Comments?

Aladon

just curious why you would use a dwarf for a finesse build. With human or elf/drow your dex will be better. Humam your con would not take the -2 that an elf would.

[Aladon]

just curious why you would use a dwarf for a finesse build. With human or elf/drow your dex will be better. Humam your con would not take the -2 that an elf would.

Because a monk needs capability across four stats and Dwarves give a stat bonus to CON while only hurting CHA which is a dumpstat. Plus Dwarves have major Toughness enhancement bonuses. So I see it as a win/win to go Dwarf. I looked at a Halfling or Elf DEX 20 build but I felt that sacrificed too much elsewhere, including wrt Power Attack. I see Power Attack as a key way to offset the relative weakness of finesse attacks, and thus important. As for Human, it seems like Monks have a lot of feats, so I guess I prefer +2 CON and Toughness enhancements to more skill points and an extra feat. However, all of this is conjecture. I'm happy to be shown a better way.

W/o any advice to the contrary, I'll be building the Dwf finesse monk tomorrow.

Best,

Aladon