Have you noticed

[Sindaleus]

...that some of the high "DPS" warriors are rather weak on HPs. What I mean by this, questing with various parties and healing those taking agro, some of my lower level heals are restoring over 1/3 their HPs in a single cast. While this is a handy restore on the receiving end but often requires more casting to keep them afloat and trying when hotkeying through F2 - F6 to healing those between spell cool downs.

I have lost a couple of individuals because their unable to last longer than a couple spell cool downs or they soak up so much SPs that you run dangerously low on SPs with a shrine much further into the quest. Or, they panic and retreat away giving you a "target blocked" or "target to far" when attempting to heal them.

Has the tuning of the warrior class gotten to the degree where they have to sacrafice their durability for extreme damage output?

And, why should I, as a Cleric, spend my wealth for wands or scrolls beyond reason to compensate for their low HP / high "DPS" character?

Sure they kill the mobs, I heal, yadda yadda but where does the line get drawn where spending gold (beyond reason) to fullfill your role of healing, buffing and removing illments stand?

This is not against those who've select this preference on character builds but I've been asked "Why don't I carry more wands" or scrolls. I have cooked through multiple CSW and CCW like thier candy trying to complete quests with nominal return on loot sales to break even sometimes.

[Scar_Weaver]

Welcome to being a cleric. That behavior is becoming increasingly more common. If it is a case of a "tank" being reckless, warn him, failing that, let him die. If it is a case of a poor "tank" build...well, there isn't much you can do about it. Also, when a "tank" whines to you about carrying more scrolls/wands, ask him why he doesn't carry more potions. I commonly will tip the party cleric if he/she is good or if the mission doesn't turn into a goat rodeo. You get good groups, you get bad groups, but with good clerics being at a premium in this game, you think more people would be mindful of the expenses.

[moorewr]

You'll see a lot of variation.. the real question isn't how much HP they have but how much effort you have to put in to keeping them upright. Some 750 HP Dwarf barbarians are amazingly helpless and suck your mana away. Some 175 hp TWF rogue/rangers need almost no attention from you. As usual player>build...

What you could expect from a level 16 character.. just IMHO:

Wizard or Sorcerer - 180-220 hp
Cleric - 250-325 hp
TWF or ranged ranger or bard or rogue et al - 150-300 hp
AC fighter or paladin - 300-400 hp
Barbarians - 500 and up


EDIT - level 7! At level 7, subtracting tomes and gear from the above, expect 60 hp arcanes and 100 hp barbs to show up in the mix

Also, welcome to DDO.

[DoctorWhofan]

First of all, I do not own a single cleric that has HP over 200. I have 9, so that should count in the average somewhere!

My theory with DPS fighter, and yes the majority are Barbarians, is to do your best. Then again, this is the reason I don't like the Barbarian class. Ideally, I would want a "sword and board" with the highest + armour he can wear at the level. Same forthe shield in my party, one being a fighter, the other being a Pally, who can throw a LoH when the need is dire. Rangers, TWF is gorgeous and evasion is even better, I's range or sword and board until you get both, then they tend to better than the average fighter when it comes to surviving.

But that is ideal, and variaty is the spice of life. Or some people will never learn. Welcome to my nightmare Sin! Glad I'm not alone in it anymore.

[moorewr]

First of all, I do not own a single cleric that has HP over 200. I have 9, so that should count in the average somewhere!

Hmm.. Maybe my guild is spoiling me for HP.

my "Turbine default" 28 pt cleric now has 270.. minos legens, con tome, con item, and a greater false life ring. I just looked in on him on Risia.. in August, at level 14, he had 142.

Do you have a minos legens (heavy fort/toughness helm from the Orchard tapestry dude) on any of your clerics? I may have a few tapestries to send your way.

(My sorc has 237, and my level 14 fighter has 338. No dorfs among them, as you can see )

My theory with DPS fighter, and yes the majority are Barbarians, is to do your best. Then again, this is the reason I don't like the Barbarian class. Ideally, I would want a "sword and board" with the highest + armour he can wear at the level. Same forthe shield in my party, one being a fighter, the other being a Pally, who can throw a LoH when the need is dire. Rangers, TWF is gorgeous and evasion is even better, I's range or sword and board until you get both, then they tend to better than the average fighter when it comes to surviving.

But that is ideal, and variaty is the spice of life. Or some people will never learn. Welcome to my nightmare Sin! Glad I'm not alone in it anymore.

What I want in a DPS melee is an arcane handy to cast Greater Heroism/Stoneskin/Blur on them and set them loose. Melees who know how to flee battle when down to <20% hp and stay where I can cast at them instead of staying in place and dying are a bonus too.

[Aranticus]

my wiz has 210 hp, my clr has 302 hp, my fighter has 386 hp, my pally has 346 hp, my twf ranger has 254 hp, my L13 barb has 365 hp.

where did the hp come from?
toughness feats/item
greater false life item
con +6 item
enhancements
draconic vitality feat (agent of agro (GH quests) favor)

all these are usable at higher level or benefits more at the high levels. unbuffed my wiz will have 96 hp less for a grand 114 hp, real squishy. its unfair to say they are sacrificing hp for dps, its that they cannot pump up their hp unlike a high level toon can. what is more fair is for those who can put on a shield for more ac to get hit less

low level
ac > hp

high level
hp > ac (unless you can pump ac up to 60+)

[Uska]

[COLOR="Red"][QUOTE=moorewr;1716904]You'll see a lot of variation.. the real question isn't how much HP they have but how much effort you have to put in to keeping them upright. Some 750 HP Dwarf barbarians are amazingly helpless and suck your mana away. Some 175 hp TWF rogue/rangers need almost no attention from you. As usual player>build...What you could expect from a level 16 character.. just IMHO
So very true

[captain1z]

I have a 500 hp fighter (sword and board or twohander) and a 400 hp fighter (2 weapon build) they play very differentand my 500hp fighter can go a long time with very little healing. Ive been learning how to position my 400 hp fighter better because he seems to take more damage, more often. Both their acs are in the low 40's (40-42 on average) but when my 500hp guy jumps into a mob of creatures he fairs far better than my 2 weapon, who must let someone else aggro and give me a second to pick the next target on my list to die (his dps output is insane...what he hits, he kills for sure)

[DoctorWhofan]

Hmm.. Maybe my guild is spoiling me for HP.

my "Turbine default" 28 pt cleric now has 270.. minos legens, con tome, con item, and a greater false life ring. I just looked in on him on Risia.. in August, at level 14, he had 142.

Do you have a minos legens (heavy fort/toughness helm from the Orchard tapestry dude) on any of your clerics? I may have a few tapestries to send your way.

(My sorc has 237, and my level 14 fighter has 338. No dorfs among them, as you can see )




What I want in a DPS melee is an arcane handy to cast Greater Heroism/Stoneskin/Blur on them and set them loose. Melees who know how to flee battle when down to <20% hp and stay where I can cast at them instead of staying in place and dying are a bonus too.

I have alot of tapastries, and one of them has the helm. But almost all my high level WIS stuff is tied to the helmet. all my clerics have the highest level CON item for their level and making them even (+5 or +6). No greater false life items (well, on my sorcerer) and quite frankly, Trissa doesn't even have the room for anything.

[Anyria]

....

As usual player>build...

What you could expect from a level 16 character.. just IMHO:

Wizard or Sorcerer - 180-220 hp
Cleric - 250-325 hp
TWF or ranged ranger or bard or rogue et al - 150-300 hp
AC fighter or paladin - 300-400 hp
Barbarians - 500 and up

I agree completely with the player>build theory

As far as my characters go

Sorcerer - 270hp (I don't understand why anyone would settle for less than 250)
Cleric (he's more of a survivalist) - 425hp (handy when you have to run everyone's soulstone to a safe place to rez them)
TWF Ranger - 350hp (A dual wielding AC of 50+, self buffing, evasion, and able to keep up with Barb DPS - nuff said)
Barbarian - 300hp (but only 10th level so much more coming, he's still in the works)

I would also have to agree with Scar - If they are sucking mana warn them , then let them die and use a resurrection - much cheaper than constant healing and they will either get the hint or be naked swinging the bare fists and they ain't no monk (well not yet anyway)

Another way to approach it is to let them know at the begining of the quest that you only have a few wands / scrolls and no money. I know, as a melee class, I would take that as I need to send some plat your way or this quest is gonna hurt my repair bill. I think more players than not will help the funds in a situation like that.

[Grenfell]

...that some of the high "DPS" warriors are rather weak on HPs. What I mean by this, questing with various parties and healing those taking agro, some of my lower level heals are restoring over 1/3 their HPs in a single cast. While this is a handy restore on the receiving end but often requires more casting to keep them afloat and trying when hotkeying through F2 - F6 to healing those between spell cool downs.

I have lost a couple of individuals because their unable to last longer than a couple spell cool downs or they soak up so much SPs that you run dangerously low on SPs with a shrine much further into the quest. Or, they panic and retreat away giving you a "target blocked" or "target to far" when attempting to heal them.

Has the tuning of the warrior class gotten to the degree where they have to sacrafice their durability for extreme damage output?

And, why should I, as a Cleric, spend my wealth for wands or scrolls beyond reason to compensate for their low HP / high "DPS" character?

Sure they kill the mobs, I heal, yadda yadda but where does the line get drawn where spending gold (beyond reason) to fullfill your role of healing, buffing and removing illments stand?

This is not against those who've select this preference on character builds but I've been asked "Why don't I carry more wands" or scrolls. I have cooked through multiple CSW and CCW like thier candy trying to complete quests with nominal return on loot sales to break even sometimes.

A couple of things.

From your sig, I note that you're lvl 7 as a cleric, which means you're in that very painful zone between 6-11 when xp gain from 'level-appropriate quests' slows to a trickle, and yet, characters haven't hit their power stride (unless they're extreme twinkers like... well, me).

The difficulty in that level range is that you are so often running quests that are really over your head on a one-on-one basis, and if you have players who don't know how to cope, and parties that don't know how to work together, it often falls on the cleric to pick up the useless gimps. For example, a lvl 7 DPS fighter, even if reasonably built with good HP's and such, will have a tough time taking on multiple trolls/ogres in CO6 by himself without getting absolutely spanked. Especially if you're running on Elite, which you often do in that level range.

Keep in mind that at lvl 7, you don't have Heavy Fortification. Few even have Moderate Fortification. Many mobs do special attacks (the Ogre triple jump, for example) that will wipe out a PC's health if they connect. Most characters at lvl 7 do not have Improved False Life items, or even +4 stat items.

At higher levels, once people start to hit lvl 11-13 and start getting into their end-game gear, the situation changes quite a bit. I find that DPS melees get much more 'durable' after level 11 once they get Heavy Fort and GFL into the picture, along with at least +4 Con items, etc.

So one thing may be just the particular level range you're at. If you don't want to go broke, slow down the levelling, make your own groups, and do level-appropriate quests. There are a ton of lvl 5/6/7 quests that are easy on normal in House K, House J, etc. that will pose no challenge whatsoever to your group, and are unlikely to strain your wand budget. Just refuse when your lvl 6-7 group says, "Let's go do Gwylan's Elite" unless you feel confident of their twinkage and the ability of the group to work together.

What contributes to the problem, unfortunately, is player skill (or lack thereof) and bad tactics.

In the midlevel range, AC > HP without a doubt. You can get something like 80% of your endgame AC by lvl 6 -- and yet, people don't take advantage of it. TWF'ers and THF'ers get this notion stuck in their head that just because they have Improved TWF and Improve THF, they MUST NEVER USE A SHIELD. That is silliness. Here's a breakdown of a lvl 6ish DPS TWF fighter without amazing gear:

10 base
12 +4 FP
2 Dex (Armor Mastery I is cheap)
6 +4 Shield
3 Barkskin Potion
3 Shield of Faith +3 potion
---------
36 AC

That's enough to evade quite a bit of the mobs in the level range. And yet, they drop the shield, don't bother with potions, and roll with 24 AC. Even a CR 8 Ogre is going to beat the @#)(*% out of you with that sort of AC.

Further, these groups tend not to practice CC tactics much. That ends up a drain on your resources as well. Spells like Charm, Hypnotic Pattern, Web, Hypnotism, etc. are exceedingly powerful in this level range -- then drop a Haste on the group and the tanks can chew up mobs one at a time without much difficulty. Yet, mages believe Firewall and Fireball are options 1 and 2, possibly because the tanks do everything BUT work together to take mobs out one at a time.

Play a bard sometime in a midlevel group and see what I'm talking about -- a group that can work around Fascinate can do just about any quest with MINIMAL resource usage. But such groups are few and far in between.

The best thing to do, IMHO, is to train your party -- talk about tactics, discuss how you want to handle things, tell the tanks to put on a shield and drink potions. The second best is to identify the resource hogs and just let them die. All you need is one competent tank, you, and a competent CC-aware caster, and you can do nearly every quest in the 7-9 range. If neither of that is available, recall and drop, and create your own group.

/gren

[Zenako]

Amen Gren....

OP, please also consider YOUR spell selection in quests. Not only what you memorize, but what you are casting. One good CC spell like Command or Greater Command can put a bunch of weak WILLed mobs on their butts for easy disposal.

Have you taken things like the Divine Healing enhancements. Very very useful in the mid levels. DHII is 60 points of healing for each turn undead slot you have. That is probably close to two CSW spells, and like 3 CSW potions. I know my cleric at those levels had something like 12 DHII's for what amounts to 720 points fo healing every shrine, for no plat, no spell points and a lot of flexibility. Making sure that your allies are properly prepared for incoming attacks. Remind them to drop resist pots or use clickies or equip the right cloaks.

One thing I don't do is heal stupid. If you are in a group with a rogue and you come to a trap but some players CHOOSE to take damage and run right thru it. I DO NOT heal them for that damage. Like someone running across the Bridge in Greymoon before those force traps are taken down...I will not use a scroll to raise them if I am out of spell points at that point.

Proactive spell casting can end up using a lot fewer Spell Points than reactive healing often does. Granted, this does require the player to be more attentive and know what spells work best, but that is part of the fun of the game.

Also AC REALLY DOES Matter in the mid levels. Mob's to hits are not stupid high yet. I have a level 5 Halfling warrior that runs around with a standing AC of like 33 right now, before pots, boosts, stances or anything and he can solo things (due to not getting hit) that some perhaps tougher/higher DPS characters could only dream about. It is a dex build.

High end HP on my characters:

16 Bard a smidge over 200 (drow)
16 cleric around 250 (human)
16 Paladin around 330 (human) standing 24/7 AC in Mid 40's
12Ran/4 Rogue around 240 (elf)
9 Ftr/1Cleric around 275 (dwarf)
10 Cleric around 150 (human)


At high end all have GH HP (10), greater false life (30), Minos Helm and good CON item (5 or 6 as needed). Heavy Fort is a must.

You can find Mod Fort items pretty easily and should be used. I know my 8th level Rogue has a Mod Fort Ring (and fearsome armor - mummy wrap) and that makes for a good combo at those levels.

At higher levels, clerics are almost unstoppable.

[Frodo_Lives]

At mid levels you tend to run into this as there are far too many people who not only build for end game only but also only play a style that is end game in nature.

At mid levels there usually far more benifit to using a shield and going sword and board then 2WF or 2HF. Really the DPS output is faster without a shield but the benifits of good AC far outwieghts the DPS in a good group.

Some people who drink potions like crazy at high end don't even touch them at mid level because of the mentality of "It's only Co6, I don't need to" but take way more damage without realizing that the cleric doesn't have access to the heal spell yet and it's a ton of sp to bring you up 150 hps every battle using nothing but CSW. It's a powerleveling, end game mentality that I have run into far too often.

Them: "Ya I may suck now, but at 16th I'll rock"*
Me: "Then send me a tell when you are 16th, cause right now you're lousy"

I am not a big believer in Offense is more important than Defense at mid or even high mid levels. Yet I run into players all the time who think nothing of taking 100 points of damage in a flash because they are dealing out damage as well.

High end character hps:

16 Paladin (drow) 370
16 Cleric (elf) 272
15 Bard (drow) 229
16 Fighter (dwarf) 440

The bard is a little low but is more focused on CC and healing and is not really a melee bard. But I made the paladin when cap was still lvl 10 and AC was king and Hps weren't as important and that has taken a little work to bump him up cause his Con started at 10.

* Actually very few people who suck at mid levels because of end game build/playstyle would admit it, or even recognize what they are doing.

[Sindaleus]

A couple of things.

At higher levels, once people start to hit lvl 11-13 and start getting into their end-game gear, the situation changes quite a bit. I find that DPS melees get much more 'durable' after level 11 once they get Heavy Fort and GFL into the picture, along with at least +4 Con items, etc.

While I understand your posted points. My sig lagged behind on my actual level--11--and recently I've been with groups ranging from 10-13, althought they may be peeking near their end-game gear, my observation has been Fighters, Paladins, and couple Barbarians that burst significant damage but unable to receive punishment back. This requires more vigilante monitoring, more so when partied with multiple meleers that are high maintence on healing.

Maybe I've worded my OP poorly. That's what I'm noticing more often--high maintenance fighters--that take up so much resources that it lessens the party's survival rate after the first 1-2 mob groups. Now that more spell effects are needed to counter hostile spell effects, for example, Freedom of Movement, or ever present poison and negative level drains requiring Restoration so the party's not operating at level 1. Of course, this is not including the SP drop on initial group buffs.

That's more to the point.

[Sindaleus]

Some people who drink potions like crazy at high end don't even touch them at mid level because of the mentality of "It's only Co6, I don't need to" but take way more damage without realizing that the cleric doesn't have access to the heal spell yet and it's a ton of sp to bring you up 150 hps every battle using nothing but CSW. It's a powerleveling, end game mentality that I have run into far too often.

Them: "Ya I may suck now, but at 16th I'll rock"*
Me: "Then send me a tell when you are 16th, cause right now you're lousy"

*laughs* I hear you man. Keeping one person up drains so much SPs rocking off the high end healing when as fast as you heal them 100&#37;, 1 second later their near death. I have to some "You're gonna need to potion pop because you're sucking SPs up like candy."

I am not a big believer in Offense is more important than Defense at mid or even high mid levels. Yet I run into players all the time who think nothing of taking 100 points of damage in a flash because they are dealing out damage as well.

I have surmised 'A Good Defense is the Best Offense' is the philosophy behind the melee builds with all the TWF archtypes out there. I don't think they grasp the impact it has on party resources when they become SP sinks while other party members require the same needed attention too.

The bard is a little low but is more focused on CC and healing and is not really a melee bard. But I made the paladin when cap was still lvl 10 and AC was king and Hps weren't as important and that has taken a little work to bump him up cause his Con started at 10.

I see. I have read up on some posted builds that sacrafice attributes as non-essential or able to compensate elsewhere with equipment and feats. For example, your level 10 Paladin when the cap was 10 and AC ruled with a 10 Con stat. Now that more Modules and content has been added, the game environment and difficulty has changed. I have been in parties brought on a storm of pain but their tactics and playstyle shined on their performance. I'm guess that my recent experience is with characters focusing on the end game and suck in the interim.

[Aranticus]

OP, apart from undead quest, i'd suggest you to use one very simple and effective cleric spell. GREATER COMMAND. what cant stand up, cant hit you. and if you dun get hit, you dun need to heal. this is what i call "preventive clericing"

with just one spell, i dominated feast of famine and many other quests. some of them, i do not even need to throw out a single healing spell cause no mobs were standing! (1st time i did it was in SC elite at L10). the only time you'll ever need to heal is at the boss fight

[Zenako]

OP, apart from undead quest, i'd suggest you to use one very simple and effective cleric spell. GREATER COMMAND. what cant stand up, cant hit you. and if you dun get hit, you dun need to heal. this is what i call "preventive clericing"

with just one spell, i dominated feast of famine and many other quests. some of them, i do not even need to throw out a single healing spell cause no mobs were standing! (1st time i did it was in SC elite at L10). the only time you'll ever need to heal is at the boss fight

Until you try this, it is hard to believe how effective that can be on all those weak willed humanoids!!! At lower levels, makes things like Redwillow a cakewalk. Was flagging for Von in a small group the other night and there were tons of mobs on the ground. Almost did not need to shrine the whole time (did skip the first 2 in Von 3)

Just keep this in mind....

Brute = low will can be commanded almost every time
Caster = low fort can be slain/destructed almost every time

The reverse is an exercise in wasting spell points....grin

[geoffhanna]

I believe it is well within a cleric's prerogative to suggest that a group try a quest on hard (or even normal) before going Elite. I never mind hearing this from the party cleric, and I am not shy about making the suggestion myself when I _am _ the party cleric. Especially with an unfamiliar group, or even more when with an unconventional group.

[Zenako]

I believe it is well within a cleric's prerogative to suggest that a group try a quest on hard (or even normal) before going Elite. I never mind hearing this from the party cleric, and I am not shy about making the suggestion myself when I _am _ the party cleric. Especially with an unfamiliar group, or even more when with an unconventional group.

Unless I have some reasons (really want the favor for example), I will seldom join a PUG on elite unless I am pretty sure I could solo it on Norma with that characterl. Kinda a good benchmark.

[sigtrent]

It's not the size of the pool, its how you use it!

Haivng a ton of HP has 1 advantage... you can get smacked around a while and not die. So a high HP tank is nice as you can let them go a little before you need to give them attention. In extreemly low HP situations you may simply not be able to cast fast enough to keep them on thier feet.

On the flip side a low HP character that simply doesn't take much damage isn't a healing burden at all. Often they can use potions or wands to keep themselves topped off. Generaly they only need healing when someting goes wrong. Mana wise its the ones with lots of HP that loose them often who will drain your mana bar and bank account. The very worst are the ones with lots of hp, low ac, and who don't do quite enough damage to drop stuff quickly. Bad times! It helps to know about how many HP your tank types have so you can know what level of heals you will need to pop them up. On my rogue I try to clue folks in that I don't really have many HP so even medium heals will often pop me up pretty good.

With the exception of barbarian it is true that high DPS characters often sacrifice at least a bit of HP or AC in favor of damage. This is really more true of AC than HP.

Personaly many of my characters have terribly low HP by DDO standards. That is partly because I made them back when HP was not nearly as nifty as good AC. But it is also partly because I don't farm loot much so most of them are missing an item or two that would take them to thier full potential HP. None the less, I've only very rarely found myself wishing I had a lot more HP on any of my characters. I know what they can handle and what they can't and by playing smart I work around any weakness they have.

Of my higher level toons...
15 fighter/ranger/cleric 250
15 Wizard/fighter 188
15 bard 140!!! (he really doesn't have a lot of HP hear, but he rarely dies by virtue of displacement and staying out of harms way)
15 ranger/barbarian/rogue 180
14 cleric/paladin 160
13 bard/fighter/barbarian 230

Part of the deal is that all my low hp combat characters can self heal to some extent or another and most of them can sport good AC when they need to. I've never had anyone ask how many hp any of my characters have because usualy it just isn't a problem for me. The only times it becomes and issue is if my character is far stronger than the rest of the group's damage dealers and pulls more than their fair share of agro.