Help wanted.. Noob cleric...

[Impaqt]

Ah, yes, so much more efficient (assuming someone else is left alive to do so, and what were they doing during the fight?)

Let's face it: you can spec your cleric to nuke, CC, trim the hedges, and shave the turkeys, but you are necessarily taking away from things that would make him or her a better healer/buffer (aside from potency and magi items, etc), and you will still never match a sorc for nuking or a wiz for CC and turkey-shaving. Until we get another reasonably competent healing class, everyone expects clerics to heal most of the time.

To illustrate my point: recently, I ran a shroud completion on my cleric, and wound up having to heal everyone in part 4 by myself, because the other clerics had gotten themselves killed trying to.. you know, i don't know what the he;l they thought they were doing, but anyway, they got killed because they were doing something other than healing, and right at the start of the boss fight. I had saved my SP for healing, figuring that the other 8 guys could handle the killing as long as I kept them alive, and so we were able to win and went on to complete the quest, all because I play a pure healer, and don't give much thought to killing stuff (unless it's undead). My only concession to offense is my 19 str, which I use to help take down portals and occasionally whip out my cursespewer or paralyzer.

I'm not saying that an offensive cleric wouldn't work; basically, they become wizards with healing and heavy armor. I'm just saying that when I want a cleric in my group, it's not for their uber killing ability.

Part of being a GOOD cleric.. Heck, ALL of being a GOOD cleric is know what to do when. DOesnt matter if you are a Nuker, Healer, Crowd Controller, or Battle cleric, the task at hand dictates what youy should be doing.

A "Pure Healer" Cleric can get himself killed by doing something moronic just as easy as a melee cleric.

Too many people get confused between Task specific clerics and Idiots.
There is no proficency test for creating a cleric. anyone can make one. Very few can play one effectively. People who dictate how to play clerics without actually playing with the PLAYER can go pound sand.

EDIT: The last statement is a General statement. Not directed specificaly at anyone.

[Morepets]

Thanks everyone this has been alot of help I believe I can make it now. Thanks everyone for your time. Happy gaming.

[Daoine-Sidhe]

To the person whom said a healer/buffer cleric doesnt need high wisdom seriously under estimates the necessity of healing. On the contrary a healer/buff cleric needs as much mana as possible. Below is the personal build of my cleric, I dont dps at all:

I am a drow cleric lawful good

8 Str (there is way more then enough items in the game to boost that high enough for "carrying" **** as everyone seems to be stressed over)
10 dex
10 con
10 int
17 wis
19 cha

first 2 levels cleric then 3rd level sorcerer (i'll explain why) then 4th - 16th all cleric.
feats: heighten, extend, improved healing, and extra turning.
enhancements are all of the converted turn undead (DV, etc) and the heal % increase

the reason I took sorcerer at 3rd level and why i run around in mithril light armor or robes is because with heighten metamagic feat I can cast hypnotism at lvl 16 as if I was a level 16 sorcerer even though i'd only be 1 lvl sorc 15 cleric, sorcerers also get double mana from items which really boosts my pool. With diplomacy maxed and me not doing dps I am able to concentrate on healing and not take aggro.

I use my turn undeads primarily for divine healing (HoT's, heal over time) because at level 16 out of 23 turn undeads 90 hp (avg) (30-120) HoT is definitly nice to have, saves on mana and keeps the squishies sustained.

Divine cleansing, divine light, divine vitality all wonderful conversions for turn undead.

[Impaqt]

You are Very Very Wrong here. and you've gimped your character by not understanding the mechanics.

Heighten lets you raise the DC of the spell to the Highest Spell level you can cast in that class. Your Level 1 Hypnotism spell will ALWAYS be Level 1. You cannot gain the extra DC with heighten. (But heighten will work on your cleric CC just fine)

Extra Spell Pointws for Items are based on your SOrc Level. A L1Sorc/L9 CLeric will gain just 10 Spell Points from a Magi Item. a 15/1 ends up with just 6 bonus spell points.

So if those were your rational for taking a level of Sorc., You broke your Character.

The DIfference in 2 Points of Wisdom at l16 in regards to Spel Points is a Mere 25 Spell Points.

10 L1 Bonus Points
15 1 SPell Point Per Cleric Level

You gain some of those back for the sorc level, and actualy gain base spell points because L1 Sorc gets 100 as apposts to l18 cleric gets 80.

You DO get yoru CHR bonus spell pointws for Lewvel 1 Sorc as well, and with a solid CHR that can add up. But nowhere near what your stating here.

To the person whom said a healer/buffer cleric doesnt need high wisdom seriously under estimates the necessity of healing. On the contrary a healer/buff cleric needs as much mana as possible. Below is the personal build of my cleric, I dont dps at all:

I am a drow cleric lawful good

8 Str (there is way more then enough items in the game to boost that high enough for "carrying" **** as everyone seems to be stressed over)
10 dex
10 con
10 int
17 wis
19 cha

first 2 levels cleric then 3rd level sorcerer (i'll explain why) then 4th - 16th all cleric.
feats: heighten, extend, improved healing, and extra turning.
enhancements are all of the converted turn undead (DV, etc) and the heal % increase

the reason I took sorcerer at 3rd level and why i run around in mithril light armor or robes is because with heighten metamagic feat I can cast hypnotism at lvl 16 as if I was a level 16 sorcerer even though i'd only be 1 lvl sorc 15 cleric, sorcerers also get double mana from items which really boosts my pool. With diplomacy maxed and me not doing dps I am able to concentrate on healing and not take aggro.

I use my turn undeads primarily for divine healing (HoT's, heal over time) because at level 16 out of 23 turn undeads 90 hp (avg) (30-120) HoT is definitly nice to have, saves on mana and keeps the squishies sustained.

Divine cleansing, divine light, divine vitality all wonderful conversions for turn undead.

[Blazer]

To the person whom said a healer/buffer cleric doesnt need high wisdom seriously under estimates the necessity of healing. On the contrary a healer/buff cleric needs as much mana as possible.

Having the highest possible WIS has nothing to do with your ability to heal, nor does it have anything to do with how much oomph is behind your heals. Also, the difference between 16 and 18 WIS when comparing the SP pool is minimal, at best. Having the highest possible WIS score is important only if you are steering your cleric through the offensive/debuff/cc route and you are casting spells that have saves. The higher your WIS modifer, the harder it is for the mobs to save against it.

A healer/buff cleric does not need as much mana as possible, he needs to wisely manage his SP pool.

the reason I took sorcerer at 3rd level and why i run around in mithril light armor or robes is because with heighten metamagic feat I can cast hypnotism at lvl 16 as if I was a level 16 sorcerer even though i'd only be 1 lvl sorc 15 cleric, sorcerers also get double mana from items which really boosts my pool. With diplomacy maxed and me not doing dps I am able to concentrate on healing and not take aggro.

First off, since you only have one level of sorc, you don't really get "double mana" from your SP or WIZ items, you get a fraction doubled and it's based on the number of sorc levels you have. Only full sorcs get "double mana". Secondly, ...

I was going to go on, but it seems Impaqt has beaten me to the punch (**** my slow typing this afternoon). Your gross misunderstanding of the basic mechanics of casting, save DCs, etc etc is a detriment to these forums and to people looking for advice. Please make sure you have your facts correct before you post.

Thank you from clerics everywhere.

[Lizardgrad89]

Want to heal and buff?

Go human. Versatility, extra skill point, and extra feat. Great for a cleric.

28 pt Human: 8 Str - 8 Dex - 14 Con - 10 Int - 18 Wis - 12 Cha (at 32 pt build go 10 str and 14 cha) Bump your Wisdom at Lvl 4, Lvl 8, Lvl 12, and Lvl 16. You can easily get to a 34 Wisdom by Lvl 16.

Skill Points: With Human you get 3/level, so max Concentration, Heal and Jump (trust me)

Feats:

Lvl 1 - Empower Healing and Toughness (Bonus Human Feat)
Lvl 3 - Extend
Lvl 6 - Quicken
Lvl 9 - Spell Focus
Lvl 12 - Spell Penetration
Lvl 15 - Greater Spell Penetration

Find a belt of the seven ideals and max spell penetration enhancement line and that's a +9 to Spell Pen at Level 16, or, if you can't afford the 6 points for that last Spell pen, take 2 enhancement levels and have a +8.


What's the plan? What are we trying to accomplish?

Well, I've known a few people who wnted to build "I just want to buff and heal" Clerics. What usually happens is, after about 8 to 10 levels, they are bored stiff with the role.

This build will allow you to buff and heal and do a great job, then when you are bored with that, it will allow you to cast wicked Blade Barriers and later effective Destructions. Your DC will be very high, and the spell pen will keep the resistant MOBs from avoiding the Destruction Spell. These also help with glyphs and words, etc.

What I'm saying is, you will buff and heal early, then become a killing machine while STILL buffing and healing in the more fun levels. Trust me, people love a cleric that keeps them alive, but the LOVE a Cleric that can keep them alive while chopping, instakilling, or stunning/blinding all the MOBS so that the run is really smooth.

Sure, you will have no Strength, but you will have enough to cart around your loot, even at 8 strength. If you have an issue, carry Bulls Strength and use it when you are burdened. Later on, have a Str item handy that you can put on if you need it.

Don't worry about Dex, Armor class is an all or nothing issue at Lvl 16. You may as well wear robes around after level 14 for all the difference it makes.

Constitution - you will have enough HP to keep yourself alive. Heck, YOU are the cleric. You know who has first priority in healing.

Intelligence - Enough to get the skill points you need, more would be wasted.

Wisdom - KEY stat. High Wis helps with Spell points, Will save, and DC. IMO, strong Wis makes for a strong Cleric.


Charisma - it would be nice to have more, but 28 point build limits.

[Impaqt]

Want to heal and buff?

Go human. Versatility, extra skill point, and extra feat. Great for a cleric.

28 pt Human: 8 Str - 8 Dex - 14 Con - 10 Int - 18 Wis - 12 Cha (at 32 pt build go 10 str and 14 cha) Bump your Wisdom at Lvl 4, Lvl 8, Lvl 12, and Lvl 16. You can easily get to a 34 Wisdom by Lvl 16.

Skill Points: With Human you get 3/level, so max Concentration, Heal and Jump (trust me)

Feats:

Lvl 1 - Empower Healing and Toughness (Bonus Human Feat)
Lvl 3 - Extend
Lvl 6 - Quicken
Lvl 9 - Spell Focus
Lvl 12 - Spell Penetration
Lvl 15 - Greater Spell Penetration

Find a belt of the seven ideals and max spell penetration enhancement line and that's a +9 to Spell Pen at Level 16, or, if you can't afford the 6 points for that last Spell pen, take 2 enhancement levels and have a +8.


What's the plan? What are we trying to accomplish?

Well, I've known a few people who wnted to build "I just want to buff and heal" Clerics. What usually happens is, after about 8 to 10 levels, they are bored stiff with the role.

This build will allow you to buff and heal and do a great job, then when you are bored with that, it will allow you to cast wicked Blade Barriers and later effective Destructions. Your DC will be very high, and the spell pen will keep the resistant MOBs from avoiding the Destruction Spell. These also help with glyphs and words, etc.

What I'm saying is, you will buff and heal early, then become a killing machine while STILL buffing and healing in the more fun levels. Trust me, people love a cleric that keeps them alive, but the LOVE a Cleric that can keep them alive while chopping, instakilling, or stunning/blinding all the MOBS so that the run is really smooth.

Sure, you will have no Strength, but you will have enough to cart around your loot, even at 8 strength. If you have an issue, carry Bulls Strength and use it when you are burdened. Later on, have a Str item handy that you can put on if you need it.

Don't worry about Dex, Armor class is an all or nothing issue at Lvl 16. You may as well wear robes around after level 14 for all the difference it makes.

Constitution - you will have enough HP to keep yourself alive. Heck, YOU are the cleric. You know who has first priority in healing.

Intelligence - Enough to get the skill points you need, more would be wasted.

Wisdom - KEY stat. High Wis helps with Spell points, Will save, and DC. IMO, strong Wis makes for a strong Cleric.


Charisma - it would be nice to have more, but 28 point build limits.

Only thing I adamantly dissagee with here is Taking TOughness on a Human. at level 16 thats a mere 18 Hit Points. With a 14 CON you can already push 300 withthe right gear. The extra 18 is a waste..... and as you said "YOU are the cleric. You know who has first priority in healing"

If you want to drop awesome blade barrier, you need Maximize. Its a significantly better feat for this build.

[Blazer]

Skill Points: With Human you get 3/level, so max Concentration, Heal and Jump (trust me)

Why Heal over Balance? Really, why Heal over....anything else? Even Haggle is a better choice than Heal.

[Impaqt]

Why Heal over Balance? Really, why Heal over....anything else? Even Haggle is a better choice than Heal.

Good catch, missed it myself. Concentration, BALANCE, then Jump.

[Blazer]

Good catch, missed it myself. Concentration, BALANCE, then Jump.

NP Impaqt, I got your back.

My cleric landed a +3 INT tome for his most recent multiple of 20th Reaver runs, so he's going to get FOUR skill points per level from lvls 17-20. I've already maxxed out Conc, Balance, and Jump on him. I'm toying with Tumble for those extra skill points...maybe Haggle even.

[Daoine-Sidhe]

I really wish I understood heighten spell feat better. From what these two vs the description and everything I've known about heigten spell its two different things. Ok here is word for word of what the feat says:

"While this metamagic feat is active, your spells are raised to the highest spell level your charcater can cast, making them more difficult to resist, but increasing their spell point cost."

it says nothing about it only effecting the spells of your highest spell casting class, says your spells.. so why would it not work on all your spells? this feat is geared for cross classing otherwise it would be worthless to have. Ideally if you were say 10 cleric lvls and 6 fighter then this would make those 10 cleric level spells cast like lvl 16's but reguardless it doesnt say it wouldnt effect all spells. Without being negative would someone help explain this better?

And as for my 1 sorc 15 cleric, 1 missguided level will not destroy or waste a character.. not to mention the fact that this build has alot more mana then a solid cleric (been using the character calculator and the difference we HUGE from the 2 types)

[Blazer]

"While this metamagic feat is active, your spells are raised to the highest spell level your charcater can cast, making them more difficult to resist, but increasing their spell point cost."

it says nothing about it only effecting the spells of your highest spell casting class, says your spells.. so why would it not work on all your spells? this feat is geared for cross classing otherwise it would be worthless to have. Ideally if you were say 10 cleric lvls and 6 fighter then this would make those 10 cleric level spells cast like lvl 16's but reguardless it doesnt say it wouldnt effect all spells. Without being negative would someone help explain this better?

Sadly, the feat descriptions in DDO (both in-game and in the on-line descriptions) leave much to be desired. However, step back a moment and think about how massively overpowered this feat would be if it worked the way you thought it worked. Do you really think you, as a 15C/1S, should be able to cast a lvl 1 spell at the same DC (barring CHA modifier), as a 16 sorc?

As for this feat being geared for cross-classing, that's not really true either. The feat is geared for the caster who wants to make his lower level spells stick on the higher level mobs. For example, Bestow Curse is a lvl 3 spell for clerics and is simply an amazing debuff. Try getting that to land on mobs at higher levels without heighten and it's much tougher. Now pay the cost to pretend it's a level 8 version of Bestow Curse and it's sticking on nearly everything. That's the power of heighten; it helps keep the lower level spells still viable in the higher levels of the game.

[Blazer]

And as for my 1 sorc 15 cleric, 1 missguided level will not destroy or waste a character.. not to mention the fact that this build has alot more mana then a solid cleric (been using the character calculator and the difference we HUGE from the 2 types)

How much mana do you have on your 15C/1S? Lay out your gear, SP feats, and enhancements as well, so we can compare your 15/1 to my 16.

[Impaqt]

I really wish I understood heighten spell feat better. From what these two vs the description and everything I've known about heigten spell its two different things. Ok here is word for word of what the feat says:

"While this metamagic feat is active, your spells are raised to the highest spell level your charcater can cast, making them more difficult to resist, but increasing their spell point cost."

it says nothing about it only effecting the spells of your highest spell casting class, says your spells.. so why would it not work on all your spells? this feat is geared for cross classing otherwise it would be worthless to have. Ideally if you were say 10 cleric lvls and 6 fighter then this would make those 10 cleric level spells cast like lvl 16's but reguardless it doesnt say it wouldnt effect all spells. Without being negative would someone help explain this better?

And as for my 1 sorc 15 cleric, 1 missguided level will not destroy or waste a character.. not to mention the fact that this build has alot more mana then a solid cleric (been using the character calculator and the difference we HUGE from the 2 types)

I guess its al about the way your read something and how you assume it works rather than having actual experience using it. and lets face it, "Everything you've known about Heighten" isnt exactly a whole lot.

I agree, the description doesnt take into account Multiclassing. but as a L1 Sorc, the Highest Arcane spell you can cast is Level 1. The way the feat works in PnP is the Heightened spell takes the place of a spell of the highest level you can cast. If you cannot Cast l8 SOrc Spells, you cannot heighten your level 1 Sorc spell to Level 8. "SPell Level" is different than "Character level" on a 15/1 CLeric Sorc, your Socs is "Spell Level 1" and your Cleric side is "Spell Level 8"

as for a 10Cleric/6 Fighter.. Heighten would rase the DC to that of a 5th level Spell. Your Spell Level would be just 5 on that build as you get 5th level spells at level 9Cleric and NO additional Spell Level at 10.

Your Right, the character may not be GImped, but 2 "Major Benefits" you advised the OP on do not exist. More spell Points are nice.. Arcane wand useage is nice (Which I feel is the best benefir for Repair wand useage)

[Cowdenicus]

I have yet to make a dwarven cleric, I like the feat from human too much, but I thought I would throw it out there.

[Samadhi]

I think he was talking about saving SP for heals, and letting the CC masters (wizzies, bards) handle the crowds. As for beholders, you're out of your mind; sure, it works, sometimes, if you're higher level than the tyrant, but when it doesn't the cleric will need a res- oh, wait, never mind.

My cleric has I would say a 85% success rate destructing the beholders in rainbow on elite - and he hasn't eaten better than a +1 tome yet. Is your cleric using hieghten? If not I highly recommend it for offensive casting.

[Blazer]

I think he was talking about saving SP for heals, and letting the CC masters (wizzies, bards) handle the crowds. As for beholders, you're out of your mind; sure, it works, sometimes, if you're higher level than the tyrant, but when it doesn't the cleric will need a res- oh, wait, never mind.

Given that clerics have both high fort and will saves, they actually do well against beholders, assuming the beasts even save against Destruction (heightened or not, at this point it's only +1 to the DC; in 4 more levels, yeah, might be more necessary). I just strap on my 3rd tier Silver Flame necklace, turn on Quicken, and go to town.

[Ringos]

Well my reply to this is you have the wrong assumption. I would choose a heal/buff cleric anyday over a cleric that will kill/cc/buff/heal. A heal/buff cleric provides so much better and timely support to a party than does the one trying to be involved in combat. Build your party so that your fighting classes, casters and bards deal with the enemy threat. A true cleric that supports the party makes the party so much more powerful.

Lol! I f a Cleric helps the group kills faster AND nobody dies, why would you not pick him/her? A lot of Clerics can multi-task.

[Cowdenicus]

The biggest problem alot of people have playing a cleric is there mindset, see there are 2 types of characters and people. Active and Re-Active, an active player or character is one that is in the fray of the fight acting to whats going on, such as a fighter, wizard, etc. A re-active character or player is a cleric or some sorcerers (depending on build, such as buffers whom have sacrificed dps for support). So for someone to say a PURE healer/buffer is a waste is someone in my opinion playing the wrong class. Fortunetly DDo characters are so customizable you can have active players playing re-active classes building them into an active class instead of their true nature.

There are a million and one ways to build a cleric, however the best way is what fits your personality.. grow into it and see what fits best. The person whom created this post specifically stated a healer/bugger, not a solo cleric. Thus I still stand behind my cleric build I mentioned with the 13 dex 17 wis 17 charisma. The use of turn undeads being converted into support abilities is a phenominal addition and its my opinion that anyone would be foolish to ignore these in the desire of a true cleric healer/bugger template.

This unfortunatly is some of the worst information I have ever seen on the forums.

A cleric is not a nanny, and not a healer (although they can and should do some healing) a cleric when properly set up can excel in multiple things, Crowd Control, Healing, Nuking, Melee, and even turn related functions (but for my money the last one just is not worth it) My second cleric, Nuking started with a 14 con, 14 str, and 18 wisdom. He now sits at 32 wisdom, 24 strength and 20 constitution. I can whip out a longsword or khopesh and melee (although not as well as a melee character) I can nuke, although not as well as a sorceror, I can crowd control just about as well as anybody else, and I can heal (although some clerics may be a bit stronger at it than mine.)

The key is I have the versatility to do basically whatever I want, and while I may not do any function as well as others could, I bring to the table the ability to do any of them well enough.

A "true cleric" is not a heal bot. A true cleric will be able to stand in any function that could be called upon. While a 32 point build may be more effective, a 28 point build can handle anything this game can throw at it.

Anybody who thinks a cleric should heal (or buff) and only heal is playing the wrong GAME, not the wrong class.

I dont even know what a bugger is. (is that something that comes out of someones nose?)

[Cowdenicus]

I really wish I understood heighten spell feat better. From what these two vs the description and everything I've known about heigten spell its two different things. Ok here is word for word of what the feat says:

"While this metamagic feat is active, your spells are raised to the highest spell level your charcater can cast, making them more difficult to resist, but increasing their spell point cost."

it says nothing about it only effecting the spells of your highest spell casting class, says your spells.. so why would it not work on all your spells? this feat is geared for cross classing otherwise it would be worthless to have. Ideally if you were say 10 cleric lvls and 6 fighter then this would make those 10 cleric level spells cast like lvl 16's but reguardless it doesnt say it wouldnt effect all spells. Without being negative would someone help explain this better?

And as for my 1 sorc 15 cleric, 1 missguided level will not destroy or waste a character.. not to mention the fact that this build has alot more mana then a solid cleric (been using the character calculator and the difference we HUGE from the 2 types)

Funny my 16 cleric has almost 1700 spell points, yours has?