Weekly Developer Activities - 5/19/08

[Milolyen]

Admirable if that's the case but I doubt most operate this way since mod5, but this is an old discussion and perhaps it's best to not discuss it further here.



I'm rather confused, if there isn't a better chance of getting more raid loot with a full group then why is it "greedy" to wait to fill the group ?

You're saying a 12 player raid doesn't mean more chances at loot? So now they're not greedy for waiting to fill it?

I am not saying 12 player raid doesn't mean more chances at loot. Most people see things very simplistic. The way most think "The more I see x drop then the better chance I have at looting x" So in their mind the more people in raid = more times it drops = more times I see it drop = better chance for me to loot and if this is the line of reasoning behind waiting to fill a group it is greedy. You are waiting because you feel it will benieft YOU. Now this line of thinking IS statistics, garbage statistics but statistics none the less. Why is it garbage statistics? Lets take a look at my grouping example earlier.

You are a mage looking for a torq from DQ. You run with 3 other people where no one but you wants the torq and your buddy runs with a full group where 4 others are looking for the torq as well. Who do you think statistically has a better chance at getting the torq? The general population will belive your buddy will because of the simple statistics I mentioned above. However lets look at real statistics. Lets say torq has a .5% chance to drop per person in group.

Group 1 - 4 people in group = 2% chance for the torq to drop no one else wants so you have a 2% chance to get the torq from that group.

Group 2 - 12 people in group = 6% chance for the torq to drop however 5 people want it giving your buddy 1.2% chance at looting it if it drops.

This is just one case where the current loot system favors the smaller group. Now we can take A_D's example of a cleric looking for the shield from SR with same drop rate.

Group 1 - 4 people in group = 2% chance with you only one wanting makeing it a 2% chance you get it.
Group 2 - 6 people in group = 3% chance with you only one wanting makeing it a 3% chance you get it.
Group 3 - 12 people in group = 6% chance with you only one wanting makeing it a 6% chance you get it.
Group 4 - 12 people in group = 6% chance with 2 people wanting it makeing it a 3% chance you get it.

Makeing no difference between group 2 and 4 other than the percieved difference.

These are not actual drop rates but that does not matter because the math is the same no matter what.

Now words by themselves are just groups of letters it is how we use them and give them meaning. Greed is basically doing something for no other reason than that it beniefts you. Fair discription of it? If so then you agree with me that to wait to fill up a raid because "you think" it will provid you with a better chance to get loot IS greedy. Not saying it is good or bad just stateing it for the fact that it is. Now if you wait to fill up raid because "you think" it gives everyone a better chance at loot includeing the people joining you could see it as being generous. Its the motives behind your actions that define them as greed or generous just like its the meaning given to the words that define the groups of letters.

Milolyen

PS as far as guild rules on a guild run raid ... loot has always been done that way, even if it isn't the norm.

[Hakushi]

You post over and over the same example and say raid groups waiting to fill up are greedy, but what I see is, if you join the 3 rangers in DQ because you have more chances to get the Torc, then this is Pure Greed.

The current system is far from perfect, it have it's flaws, but the previous system also had flaws. Personally what I think is: A full group of 12 people doing a raid like, let's say Titan, on Elite should never drop 0 raid items.

On another subject, I don't think adding the Abbot to the unlock race for the new raids would have been a great idea, the Abbot raid isn't finished yet and is still being worked on and getting fixes.

• NEW Set in a wooded alcove near Delera’s Tomb, a symbolic memorial site has been erected for visitors to pay homage to Dungeon Master Gary Gygax.

Very good idea.

[Milolyen]

You post over and over the same example and say raid groups waiting to fill up are greedy, but what I see is, if you join the 3 rangers in DQ because you have more chances to get the Torc, then this is Pure Greed.

The current system is far from perfect, it have it's flaws, but the previous system also had flaws. Personally what I think is: A full group of 12 people doing a raid like, let's say Titan, on Elite should never drop 0 raid items.

On another subject, I don't think adding the Abbot to the unlock race for the new raids would have been a great idea, the Abbot raid isn't finished yet and is still being worked on and getting fixes.

Very good idea.

Okay so you see the point I was trying to make. Yes while "if you join the 3 rangers in DQ because you have more chances to get the Torc, then this is Pure Greed." IF that is your only reason to join the group. But as I showed in this instance the mage in fact has a better chance for the torc than if he joined a full group.

But on the same note so is "we are filling up the group because it gives us a better chance at loot" pure greed as well. IF that is the only reason you are filling up the group.

The whole arguement got started because of this statement.

That is true... but starting with an update between mod4 and mod5, all raids gave at least +100% more loot to players who brought in 12 characters instead of 6.

That was a nasty double whammy: Not only is it more difficult for you to beat the raid, but you also get around half the loot as if you'd packed the team with AFK lootbots. That change turned out to be a lame way to create a "need" for full raid groups, without needing them to beat the mission.

And even if they are, are least one of the raids will apply the typical loot penalty of over 100% for not filling up the group.

Under the old loot system, a team of 4-7 people could meet up and run Velah, Titan, Laliat, or Reaver without problem. Everyone would have something helpful to do during the majority of the raid, and then they'd get a chance for nice loot at the end.

The new system changed this, and made DDO less fun in two concrete ways:
1. More time spent trying to fill a group for a raid quest, which is naturally less fun than actually playing the raid.
2. More players inside the raid with neither the ability to contribute, nor a reason to try.

While it IS true that a raid of 12 has 100% more of a chance to have raid loot drop however they have 100% more people that are looking for the raid loot. It neither benifits nor discourages going in with groups that are not full. That is what I been trying to show.

The old system favored people short manning raids if you go in with 6 and each person is looking for a different item from raid you have twice the chance of getting that item than if you went in with 12 people where 2 people where contending for the 6 different items.

The new system does not favor the short man group over the full group just like it does not favor the full group over the short manned group. Loot has always been the constant and group size and number of people that desire the item are the variables. It was that way in the old system and is that way in the new one as well.

What got me involved in the arguement was when he said he used "complete mathamatical explination" to prove his point. Until then I was writing him off as another uninformed player that does not understand statistics. I am very good with numbers and enjoy math but one thing I can't stand is when someone twists the numbers around to prove their point instead of accepting the facts that they provide.

Milolyen

PS okay sorry if I got a little overzelous with this arguement and kind of takeing over the thread with it. I have said all I can on the subject and feel I proved my point fairly well. If anyone wants to discuss further you can PM me.

[Yaga_Nub]

Which is a very good argument for them to rework the flagging mechanics for the Dragon and the Demon Queen. Something we all seem to be able to agree on... except the people who count.

I completely agree. When did I say that I didn't agree with changing the flagging for DQ and Dragon?

[Yaga_Nub]

Ya we know yaga. We just can't keep you away from Balz.

Milolyen

I think I was just disparaged!