BAB, attacks per round, and multiclassing

[Leyoni]

First, thx to everyone who helped me with my last post regarding Monks. Very insightful.

Now my question of the moment. I understand that BAB determines number of attacks per round. As I understand it a BAB of 0 gives 1 attack, a BAB of 1 gives 2, and a BAB of 5 gives 3. Then, if I have this right, every time BAB goes up by 5 you get another attack.

So, a fighter with a BAB of 10 gets 4 attacks per round at L10 (when he hits BAB 10) a rogue with a BAB of 10 gets 4 attacks per round at L14 (when he hits BAB 10). Is that correct?

Now, if I multiclass rogue with fighter how does that affect the BAB? If I start a character as a rogue, splash fighter at L2, then go rogue for 4 more levels and splash another level of fighter (now R5/F2) what is the BAB? Is it +3 (the BAB for rogue 5) or is it +7 (the BAB if a pure fighter) or what?

Is there an easy formula to figure out the BAB of multiclassed characters? (It will be easy if it is just the highest BAB for whatever the mix is.)

Thx again in advance.

[EinarMal]

Ok, this game does not work like PnP with BAB. What BAB does with this game is give you longer combat animations, an increasing attack bonus for each swing, and the ability to take feats like GTWF etc...

Actual attack speed stays roughly the same, because the length of animation gets longer as you get more attacks. Now TWF is a bit different as some animations (depending on the feats you take) get two attack rolls instead of 1.

As far as MC BAB you just add the progression together.

Rogue 5/Fighter 2 would give you:

Rogue 5 = +3 BAB
Fighter 2 = +2 BAB

For a total of +5 BAB

[Strykersz]

Actual attack speed goes up at bab 5 stays about the same at 10 and goes down by something like 10% for thf and sword + board at 15.

[Dungnmaster001]

First, thx to everyone who helped me with my last post regarding Monks. Very insightful.

Now my question of the moment. I understand that BAB determines number of attacks per round. As I understand it a BAB of 0 gives 1 attack, a BAB of 1 gives 2, and a BAB of 5 gives 3. Then, if I have this right, every time BAB goes up by 5 you get another attack.

So, a fighter with a BAB of 10 gets 4 attacks per round at L10 (when he hits BAB 10) a rogue with a BAB of 10 gets 4 attacks per round at L14 (when he hits BAB 10). Is that correct?

Now, if I multiclass rogue with fighter how does that affect the BAB? If I start a character as a rogue, splash fighter at L2, then go rogue for 4 more levels and splash another level of fighter (now R5/F2) what is the BAB? Is it +3 (the BAB for rogue 5) or is it +7 (the BAB if a pure fighter) or what?

Is there an easy formula to figure out the BAB of multiclassed characters? (It will be easy if it is just the highest BAB for whatever the mix is.)

Thx again in advance.

To find the BAB of a multiclass character take the + from however many class levels you have in each class. For example take a Fighter12/rogue3/wiz1
Fighter12 = +12
Rogue 3 = +2
Wiz 1 = +0
So total BaB of +14

[Leyoni]

Ok, this game does not work like PnP with BAB. What BAB does with this game is give you longer combat animations, an increasing attack bonus for each swing, and the ability to take feats like GTWF etc...

Actual attack speed stays roughly the same, because the length of animation gets longer as you get more attacks. Now TWF is a bit different as some animations (depending on the feats you take) get two attack rolls instead of 1.

As far as MC BAB you just add the progression together.

Rogue 5/Fighter 2 would give you:

Rogue 5 = +3 BAB
Fighter 2 = +2 BAB

For a total of +5 BAB

EinarMal,

I see talk of DPS so somehow BAB, attack animations/speed, and so on all has to come together. My guess was that Turbine roughly works out the time between attacks so that over some real-time interval characters of different levels get the appropriate number of attacks at the right attack bonuses. Is that a completely wrong guess?

Next, using the R5/F2 with a BAB of +5, does that mean that he should be getting 3 attacks per round (or in DDO, 3 attacks with +5/+0/+0)? Is the best attack the first or the last in the chain?

Thx again,

[Gadget2775]

Try checking out the class links from DDO Wiki. It provides a great breakdown of what each class gains at each level. To calculate saves, bab etc just add the numbers listed.

IE Rogue 5/Fighter 2...Take the numbers from the Rogue level 5 row and add them to the numbers from the Fighter level 2 row. That'll provide you with your base numbers.

[Gadget2775]

Next, using the R5/F2 with a BAB of +5, does that mean that he should be getting 3 attacks per round (or in DDO, 3 attacks with +5/+0/+0)? Is the best attack the first or the last in the chain?

Highest attack bonus is for the last attack made. Initially DDO followed the PnP attack progression which reduced the attack bonus for additional attacks made each round. As this made it harder to hit mobs with later attacks players would stutter their attacks to only use the first swing of the round. Turbine wanted to provide an incentive to stand still and complete the entire attack sequence thus we have the increasing attack bonus for later swings.

[Angelus_dead]

Now my question of the moment. I understand that BAB determines number of attacks per round. As I understand it a BAB of 0 gives 1 attack, a BAB of 1 gives 2, and a BAB of 5 gives 3. Then, if I have this right, every time BAB goes up by 5 you get another attack.

DDO does not use rounds. The D&D concept that a fighter with BAB 5 has the potential for twice the weapon DPS as he did at BAB 4 doesn't apply here. If anything, going up in BAB decreases your attack rate slightly (which is a bug, although it's one that the devs deny is important enough to notice)

To compute the BAB of a multiclass character, do this:
Martial = fighter + barbarian + ranger + paladin
Support = cleric + barb + rogue + monk + druid
Mage = wizard + sorcerer

Martial: BAB +1, +1, +1, +1
Support: BAB +0, +1, +1, +1
Mage: BAB +0, +1, +0, +1

Each time you take a level in a class, pick the next entry off the corresponding line and add it to your BAB. So at level 1, four classes can have BAB 1 and the rest will have BAB 0. At level 2 those classes will get BAB2, and the others 1, except someone who multiclassed into another support or mage class, who will still be BAB 0. If you go Rogue/Wizard/Bard you'll be 3rd level but still have BAB 0.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

EinarMal,

I see talk of DPS so somehow BAB, attack animations/speed, and so on all has to come together. My guess was that Turbine roughly works out the time between attacks so that over some real-time interval characters of different levels get the appropriate number of attacks at the right attack bonuses. Is that a completely wrong guess?,

Yup, that's a wrong guess. Turbine has admitted that their past graphics folks coded for look, not timing/accuracy/rules.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

get some Divine Power clickies.....a must for any multi-classed build.

Give you the BAB of a Ftr of your total char lvl....with all the trimmings. For a min anyway.

And for those of you who haven't tried to swing a Quarterstaff with a BAB of 16, you're missing out.

[Mindspat]

get some Divine Power clickies.....a must for any multi-classed build.

Give you the BAB of a Ftr of your total char lvl....with all the trimmings. For a min anyway.

And for those of you who haven't tried to swing a Quarterstaff with a BAB of 16, you're missing out.

You beat me to it! :P

Level 16 Sorcerer with Divine Power gets full BAB and attacks as if they were a lvl 16 Fighter. The clicky usually lasts long enough for a general encounter; I have 5 bracers with 5 clickes on each!

Honestly, someone should look at reducing the Divine Power appearing on the loot table. As it stands it's extremely over powered to have if you play a non fighter type since it effectively reduces the dependacy on multi role characters, or does it?

[wolfy42]

BAB is nice but not as important in DDO as in traditional D&D.

In D&D a higher BAB gives you additional attacks in the same amount of time as a lower BAB.

In other words when you hit 5 BAB you get 1 normal attack and a second attack at -2 to hit (just about doubling your melee damage).

In DDO they totally thrashed that concept and instead added a to hit bonus for combo hits from higher BAB.

That would have been bad enough, but they also added in an extra attack at BAB 1.

So basically by lvl 2 everyone has a 2 attack combo and nobody gets any bonus to hit unless standing still and attacking twice before.

Because of this a wizard can actually be a more effective fighter then a melee class even without divine power clickies especially at early lvls.

At lvl 3 a finess based halfling wizard can self buff his dex by another 4 points from cats grace giving himself as high an AB as a pure fighter (more so probably since the fighter is usually strength based). Bulls strength boosts dmg up (starting with a 12 thats +3 to damage) and of course you can get a very high AC as well.

At lvl 5 the wizard gets both heroism for +2 to hit AND haste for +1 more ac and much faster attack speed.

Compare a lvl 5 wizard with starting 20 dex, cats grace, heroism and haste to a lvl 5 melee of any type...and the wizard will have a higher AB consistantly. Dmg wise the wizard may not hit for quite as much (strengh will probably be a bit lower) but the difference after you factor in magical weapon bonuses etc is tiny....at least for sword/board using melees (basically anyone with such a high AC).

Melee in DDO is actually broken to make spellcasters better at it then pure martial characters early on depending on the build, and this is directly because of the way combo attacks work.

If characters got 1 attack only till BAB 5, then 2 attacks at 5 and the down time between non-combo attacks (or attacks while moving without a feat) was increased....that would fix things.

What I think would work is this:

BAB 0-4= 1 attack, 1 second down tiem between each attack.
BAB 5-9= 2 attacks, no downtime between them, 1 second downtime between each combo.
Bab 10-14= 3 attacks, no downtime between them, +5 to hit for 3rd attack, 1 second downtime between each combo.
BAB 15-19=4 attacks, no downtime between them, +5 to hit for 3rd and 4th attack, 1 second downtime between each combo.

In addition Spring attack would allow for FULL attack combos while moving. Without spring attack you would be restricted to getting only your second attack.

This would drastically reduce the melee abilities of pure spellcasters and penalize the hybrids a bit more as well. In addition spring attack would be more worthwhile to take.

The combo of giving a second attack at BAB 1 and ditching all bonus attacks past that while moving makes BAB a nice bonus, but certainly not mandatory for any melee build.

While a wizard or sorc may need to worry about max hp...there is absolutly NOTHING currently stopping them from being good at melee combat.

In fact arguably they are the highest DPS sword/board fighters in the game, especially with spells going like fireshield/firewall etc (toss in a good guard robe of some element along with your stoneskin and a heavy fort item).

At lvl 5 a pure halfling wizard can hit +18 to hit with a light weapon and no outside spells (using a bless clickie and Divine favor clicky you can hit +20). You also happen to be able to keep haste going constantly.

You can easily sacrifice a few AB for a holy weapon etc and still hit anything at that level 100% of the time just about (+18 to hit instead of +20, but you add a nice 2d6 holy dmg and +1d6 good dmg with say a +1 holy light mace of good.

But mr wolfy...wizards can't survive in melee!!!

Wrong.....in the above example the barbarian lvl gives you 6/- DR for 20 seconds 5 times per rest, your AC is well over 30 (31-32 by lvl 5, 33 at lvl 6 (shield increase to AC) and at lvl 7 once you get deleras shackles you can hit 37 constantly. Lvl 8 gives you halfling dex II and level up dex for 38 AC etc.

Hp are a bit low, but hey you can use aid/mass aid to keep them boosted a bit along with false life items. Most imprortant though is the mod fort asap so you don't get crit hit.

My character went with dragon marks and can self heal like a god. All the cure serious and heal dragonmarks count as full heals for my halfling mage, and my cure lights still heal 30% of my max hp a pop once boosted by maximize/items.

[jjflanigan]

Attack speed does change based on BaB, but it's not directly linear. The numbers below are number of attacks / minute:

Weapon			BaB 0		BaB 1		BaB 2		BaB 3		BaB 4		BaB 5		BaB 6		BaB 7		BaB 8		BaB 9		BaB 10		BaB 11		BaB 12		BaB 13		BaB 14		BaB 15		BaB 16
One Handed Weapons	78		82		89		95		100		96		98		99		100		102		91		91		92		92		93		89		89

(Glancing Blows)
Quarterstaff		83 (0)		90 (0)		96 (0)		100 (0)		104 (0)		93 (31)		93 (31)		94 (31)		96 (32)		96 (32)		90 (22)		91 (23 / 45)	91 (23 / 45)	92 (23 / 45)	92 (23 / 45)	84 (33 / 50)	84 (33 / 50)
Maul			81 (81)		88 (44)		94 (47)		98 (49)		102 (52)	90 (30)		92 (31)		93 (31)		93 (31)		94 (32)		88 (22)		89 (23 / 45)	89 (23 / 45)	91 (23 / 45)	91 (23 / 45)	81 (33 / 49)	81 (33 / 49)
Greataxe		81 (81)		88 (44)		94 (47)		98 (49)		102 (52)	90 (30)		92 (31)		93 (31)		93 (31)		94 (32)		88 (22)		89 (23 / 45)	89 (23 / 45)	91 (23 / 45)	91 (23 / 45)	81 (33 / 49)	81 (33 / 49)

(Glancing Blows)
Falchion		60 (60)		75 (38)		80 (40)		83 (42)		86 (43)		82 (28)		83 (28)		84 (28)		85 (29)		86 (29)		83 (20)		83 (20 / 41)	83 (20 / 41)	84 (21 / 42)	84 (21 / 42)	76 (31 / 46)	76 (31 / 46)
Greatclub		60 (60)		75 (38)		80 (40)		83 (42)		86 (43)		82 (28)		83 (28)		84 (28)		85 (29)		86 (29)		83 (20)		83 (20 / 41)	83 (20 / 41)	84 (21 / 42)	84 (21 / 42)	76 (31 / 46)	76 (31 / 46)
Greatsword		60 (60)		75 (38)		80 (40)		83 (42)		86 (43)		82 (28)		83 (28)		84 (28)		85 (29)		86 (29)		83 (20)		83 (20 / 41)	83 (20 / 41)	84 (21 / 42)	84 (21 / 42)	76 (31 / 46)	76 (31 / 46)

(QD | RS / RS & QD)
Thrown 			25 (31 / 36)	28 (34 / 38)	31 (36 / 41)	32 (38 / 44)	35 (41 / 44)	37 (41 / 47)	38 (44 / 48)	39 (44 / 48)	40 (46 / 51)	41 (47 / 51)	42 (48 / 51)	42 (48 / 55)	44 (48 / 56)	45 (51 / 56)	47 (53 / 56)	47 (54 / 56)	47 (54 / 56)

(RR | RS / RR & RS)
Crossbow		20 (25 / 30)	23 (28 / 33)	26 (31 / 36)	28 (33 / 38)	30 (35 / 40)	32 (37 / 42)	33 (38 / 42)	34 (39 / 44)	35 (40 / 44)	36 (41 / 46)	37 (42 / 46)	38 (43 / 47)	39 (44 / 48)	40 (45 / 49)	41 (46 / 50)	42 (47 / 51)	43 (48 / 52)
Repeater		20 (25 / 30)	60 (65 / 72)	60 (72 / 82)	66 (75 / 85)	66 (81 / 90)	75 (84/ 96)	77 (87 / 98)	78 (90 / 99)	81 (92 / 102)	84 (93 / 105)	86 (94 / 105)	87 (97 / 108)	90 (101 / 111)	93 (102 / 114)	96 (103 / 115)	99 (106 / 117)	101 (109 / 120)

(Rapid Shot)
Bow			25 (31)		28 (34)		31 (36)		32 (38)		34 (41)		36 (41)		38 (44)		38 (44)		39 (45)		41 (47)		41 (48)		42 (49)		44 (50)		45 (51)		47 (53)		47 (53)		47 (53)

TWF Main Hand		85		93		100		104		109		91		92		93		94		96		91		91		87		87		88		83		83

TWF Off Hand		42		46		50		52		54		30		31		31		31		32		22		22		21		21		22		33		33
ITWF Off Hand														61		62		62		64		46		46		44		44		44		50		50
GTWF Off Hand																								91		87		87		88		83		83

[Dungnmaster001]

EinarMal,

I see talk of DPS so somehow BAB, attack animations/speed, and so on all has to come together. My guess was that Turbine roughly works out the time between attacks so that over some real-time interval characters of different levels get the appropriate number of attacks at the right attack bonuses. Is that a completely wrong guess?

Next, using the R5/F2 with a BAB of +5, does that mean that he should be getting 3 attacks per round (or in DDO, 3 attacks with +5/+0/+0)? Is the best attack the first or the last in the chain?

Thx again,

with a 5 BaB you get 3 attacks, +0/+0/+5 the last always has the highest bonus. Lets give a full example to be sure

Level 5 fighter, 18 str, +2 weapon, weapon focus feat

Total attacks: 3, 2 at +12, 1 at +17 (+5 BaB, +4 Str, +2 Weapon, +1 Feat for the first 2, then +5 on top of that for the 3rd attack)

[Mindspat]

While a wizard or sorc may need to worry about max hp...there is absolutly NOTHING currently stopping them from being good at melee combat.

In fact arguably they are the highest DPS sword/board fighters in the game, especially with spells going like fireshield/firewall etc (toss in a good guard robe of some element along with your stoneskin and a heavy fort item).

(using a bless clickie and Divine favor clicky you can hit +20). You also happen to be able to keep haste going constantly.

But mr wolfy...wizards can't survive in melee!!!

Wrong.

Hp are a bit low, but hey you can use aid/mass aid to keep them boosted a bit along with false life items. Most imprortant though is the mod fort asap so you don't get crit hit.

Nailed it on the head. Sometimes I think it might be a tad too much, but it does allow for an extremely fun gaming environment where you can build a character around your playstyle rather then having to play a particular class a specific way.

Fire shield/Cold shield
Acid Guard Mithril Chain Shirt of Axe Block
Bramble Casters
Evil Green Steel bracers (neg energy)

^that's what I use for guard damage, but it doesn't mean much if I',m not getting hit to begin with.

Using theTorc and spamming intimidate along with being spec'd for fire/cold nuking while maintaining a heavy emphasis upon crowd control and negative energy spells helps keep the agro on me while mitigating a lot of the potential damage. A good diplomacy ensures I can pass it off to someone else in the party if/when it get's too rough. My non buffed AC of 41 (lvl 16 sorcerer) isn't the greatest but it gets even more impressive with Haste, Stoneskin and Displacement. Having a 9 strength is the biggest speed bump and I frequently have to watch my encumberence - A 50 second Divine Power is normally the only str buff I'm using.

And I use Finesse - full group with average buffs normally place me around a +40 to +48 to hit with a Rapier.

My finesse-Sorc's direction isn't to do melee dmg and I tend to focus on debuffs and stat damage which makes most targets push overs. I also never use Finger of Death or Phantasmal Killer.