Missing weapons...where are they?

[sigtrent]

Animations are no doubt the main issue..

I'd also argue that in general a weapon should have some strategic or numerical purpose in game. We have lots of DDO weapons no one uses because they simply don't offer any kind of advantage and seem to be in game just becasue it was easy to model them and they could share an animation with other items.

I'd say spears/pole arms do have a good purpose in game with two handed pierce etc... I think asking for reach and the like is a bit out of the scope of what DDO combat offers since few weapons really have an actual reach advantage currently and having a 5' dead zone on poll arms would be problematic for everyone.

Some of the other weapons like flails would be a lot of work for no real in game benefit since its basicaly a morning star wtih different graphics in D&D. Same goes for lots of other weapons.

[Indel_Eventine]

Pole-arms are more of a formation weapon, not really a weapon one would use in close combat (useless once the enemy is inside that 10-15 feet of pole). Spears could be used as a ranged weapon (javelins, etc).

Flails? They were used by knights, so there is no realy good reason, other than it would be rather more complex to code than other weapons.

I think there should be a 2 handed pick available.

[Targonis]

Why could you not use a spear in a confined passageway? It's a thrusting weapon, afterall.

You can use one, but hauling the thing around in those confined passages and hallways is a royal pain in the rear. Seriously, have you ever had to bring in a ladder from the outside of the house and get it into a house, then bring it down a set of stairs that is in a narrow hallway? A spear may not be quite as heavy or bulky, but the idea is the same, you won't be able to bring a spear with you into every adventure area because of the size. So, it's not the use as much as getting it into position. If you are a defender and have time to get spears to where defenders can use them, that is the best situation because in a narrow space, it is hard to chop at the spears being thrust at you.

[QuantumFX]

Animation and graphics are part of fitting the genre. Look, have you SEEN the Lord of the Rings movie? The Princess Bride? Star Wars? Red Sonja? Spears aren't what the protagonists have. They're something the protagonists break with their swords when the evil horde swarms around them.

And have you SEEN any of the following? Braveheart, 300, Gladiator, or any Martial Art movie.

[Aesop]

I disagree with everything AD has said ... at least on the first page

I stopped reading after that because it just seemed to go down hill and I don't have a lot of time today


Aesop

[Muirtach]

Spiked chains - okay these are silly, and mostly a cheese-addicts dream. I've got a sheet for a psychic warrior around somewhere, built to do a whirlwind attack that hit every mob within 10-20 foot range via a spiked chain. Sick and wrong, especially when he's getting about three different kinds of elemental damage and strength draining on there to boot.

I had a duskblade chain user once. He was specced toward combat reflexes and using Robilar's Gambit. Using Dimension hop to throw things back away when they got close and then hit them as they cam back in was just unfair.

[Lizardgrad89]

Wow, this reads like a WotC Katana thread. Nerd-rage FTW!

Overall, there are better things to spend time programing. I want my half-orcs. (and I could give a rip about orcish double axes, so don't go there)

/signed

[Angelus_dead]

And have you SEEN any of the following? Braveheart, 300, Gladiator, or any Martial Art movie.

Obviously, those movies are from different genres:

War movies like Braveheart are about two large groups fighting each other.
Martial arts movies are about individual fighting each other.

Fantasy adventure movies are about small groups fighting a large group.

PS. Gladiator changed from a war movie at the start to heroic adventure later, at which point the weapons changed from spears to swords, as appropriate to the new genre.

[Depravity]

I'd say spears/pole arms do have a good purpose in game with two handed pierce etc... I think asking for reach and the like is a bit out of the scope of what DDO combat offers since few weapons really have an actual reach advantage currently and having a 5' dead zone on poll arms would be problematic for everyone.

Some of the other weapons like flails would be a lot of work for no real in game benefit since its basicaly a morning star wtih different graphics in D&D. Same goes for lots of other weapons.

I agree that reach would be problematic, and almost definitely more trouble than it's worth.

Broke out ye old PHB to check some numbers on weapons we don't have:
shortspears are "meh" - 1d6 crit x2 - We've got better
flail - 1d8 x2 - yep, it's a morningstar, but with a (DDO useless) disarming bonus
trident - 1d8 x2 - basically an upgraded shortpsear that you can throw

Two Handers:
heavy flail - 1d10 19-20/x2, two handed - big and ugly and theonly bludgeoning weapon with a better than 1 crit range.
halberd - 1d10 x3 Pierce/Slash - not a reach weapon, but why not just get a greataxe?
scythe - 2d4 x4 Pierce/Slash
longspears - 1d8 x3, two handed - this would be nice for some THF options, although I'm not sure about glances on a stabbing weapon - also happens to be a reach weapon

The rest of the polearms are all reach weapons, so I'm ignoring them along with some of the wackier exotics (double swords included)

Monks are missing:
Sai - 1d4 x2 bludgeoning - throwable
Singham - 1d6 x2 piercing

As far as things I'd pick out as worth requesting dev time:
Scythe - gets you THF piercing and a x4 crit, for those that want two handed picks. Also easy enough to model, just put a new head on a maul. Covers up the need for spears.
Heavy Flail - some love for those tactical THF types. Only 19-20 crit bludgeon available. Some trouble to animate, but it'll look sweet.
Sai and Singham - Extra options for our upcoming monks. Singham could easily be covered by allowing daggers as monk weapons (I'll take the lower die in exchange for double crits).

Since the dev team is tight-lipped about what made it into the loot tables for the monks, we may just be seeing sais or singhams in the near future.

I would like to go on record as saying I'd like to see spears, but the mechanics would be different from our current weapons. The stabbing would imply a narrower cone in front of us for attacks, and reach would be a bear. Given how much of the playerbase seems to want nothing more than a race to see who can kill things in the fewest right clicks, I can't see them adjusting well to a changed weapon behavior.

Much as I'd like more variety in weaponry, it would play more towards roleplayers for costuming purposes. Most of the playerbase would ignore aything that didn't get them the best numerical advantage.

[Aesop]

Reach is only a problem if people make it a problem... first off you have longer reach.... the animation is greater thus you have a LONGER REACH.

second if that still isn't enough then just have reach weapons give a +1 AC bonus to show the benefit of keeping enemies at a farther distance

not all that impressive I know but simple is sometimes just fine

Aesop

[sephiroth1084]

The problem with reach weapons in D&D isn't comparable to their use by armies historically. Reason being, armies were not treading through 5 and 10 ft. wide corridors in dungeons, where wielding something 8+ ft. long becomes unwieldy. Longspears are TERRIFIC in dungeons IF you are DEFENDING your territory, that is, if you are stationary and warding off advancing enemies. However, can you picture, whether in-game or in your mind's eye, doing something with a pointy stick as high as a basketball hoop while you: are climbing a ladder, swimming, walking through a hallway designed by a small race (and likely not more than 5 or 6 ft. high), or even turning around to assault an enemy behind you in a 5 or 10 ft. wide hall?

The other problem I've always had with my PnP characters is, just as has been asserted, that protagonists do not tend to use spears, they use swords. The reason being, as far as I am concerned, is that you primarily have a single, somewhat varied, attacking motion with a spear--thrusting forward. There just isn't anything particularly cinematic about poking with a spear. Yeah, you can spin and trip with it, but that is not its intended use, makes it no longer a piercing weapon, and again leads back to my first argument. Heroes and archvillains use swords because, honestly, they LOOK COOL! You can swing one in so many different ways, exhibiting some degree of finesse and style.

Sure, I'd like longspears in the game if they came with some interesting rules associated with them, but the reach issue in DDO will be of little impact due to the fast-paced chaos that is real-time combat. You won't be able to create spear-walls, or take attacks of opportunity, so it means little. Maybe if it dealt some points of auto-damage to any enemy that approached you and did not have reach, but that's unlikely.

Truthfully, we could all use more meaningful variety in our weapons. The khopesh was a nice addition because it is an exotic weapon that is actually worth a feat, because it does not simply grant an average of 1 point more than a similar martial weapon (bastard sword, dwarven axe, I'm looking at you!). Why people wield bastard swords, I cannot fathom.

[QuantumFX]

Obviously, those movies are from different genres:

War movies like Braveheart are about two large groups fighting each other.
Martial arts movies are about individual fighting each other.

Fantasy adventure movies are about small groups fighting a large group.

PS. Gladiator changed from a war movie at the start to heroic adventure later, at which point the weapons changed from spears to swords, as appropriate to the new genre.

Got it. So what you're saying is that you haven't watched those movies.

[sigtrent]

Time for some SCA geekary!

I used to do some SCA fighting (society for creative anacronism) they dress up in armor and use mock weapons to beat on one another but many of the more skilled knights really elevate it to a martial art and study the ancient texts on warfare and man to man combat.

I was not a knight, just a shlub who liked to fight from time to time but you do get some practical expereince with fighting in armor with melee weapons.

Pole arms have two advantages: You can reach over obsticles like walls, horses or other people and smack stuff, and you can often hit someone coming at you before they get a chance to hit you.

The problem is that if you don't hit someone before they get to you its really hard to get a good swing on them up close. You end up having to try and back up but if your opponent is good they will keep advancing. Its easier to move forward in armor than to go backwards and the advancing guy can see where you are going while you can not. One good tactic not allowed in SCA (due to possible injury ironicaly enough) is to try and just knock the guy down, then back up a step and smack them while they are down with the pole axe.

Spears are different. A short spear is actualy a very good close quarters weapon. Its only real problem is that it can't penetrate armor too well, tens to slide off the curved surfaces of plate. Spears are really fast and hard to defend agaisnt in the hands of a good spearman. its also much harder to read where a spear attack will come from than a blade or blunt as the angle can varry a lot with little body movement. A sword or blunt stroke takes a good wind up to be effective against armor. A long spear is a lot more like a pole arm tactics wise.

Flails are actualy quite interesting in SCA combat, but are banned in most kingdoms as they can cause injury. (armor isn't so great at protecting you from being strangled) Flails are good for catching someone elses arm or weapon, but they are also nice for getting around shields as you can swing high/wide and while they can block the handle the ball and chain just wrap over and smack the guy with almost full force. In a rigid weapon if you block any part you stop the whole weapon.

[GlassCannon]

Before the "Great Purge" the was a dev response on these. Flails and whips were not included because it's hard to animate chains and other flexible weapons. Of course whips are also fairly weak weapons and are mostly used for tactical options. It does non-leathal damage, which isn't in game, you can trip with any weapon in DDO and disarm isn't in game either. Spears and polearms were not included because of issues with reach and since we don't have charge, we can't use the set against charge option, which would be hard to code anyways. Double weapons were not included for coding issues. Making them work like two weapons or two handed weapons is difficult. We can't even use one handed weapons in two hands.

Now when you add up all the issues with these weapons and think about the animations you have to do for all of these, it's understandable why they were left out. I hope they are added, but I'm not holding my breath.

Double weapons are easy:

Setcondition: SetWeaponPart(1): Mace, SetWeaponPart(2): Mace, elseif DoubleMaceActivate SetWeaponPart1: DoubleMace, SetWeaponPart2: Null, Weapontype<2Handed>... (Edit): Damage= Permdamage+Damage<Doublemace>, elseif2weapon, PermdamageWeapon1, PermdamageWeapon2=PermdamageDoubleace/2, Damage = PermdamageDoubleMace/2| IfOddDamage, then StoreDamageNumber=DoublemaceOddDamage, IfDamageOnRecombine≠StoredDamage+AdditionalDamageW eapon1+AdditionalDamageweapon2, then SetDamage: StoredDamageNumber+AdditionalWeapon1Damage+Additio nalWeapon2Damage.

Store the Damages on seperation, apply at division by 2 unless a cache is kept for individual mace damage(which would be more prudent). Broken Doublemace Pieces cannot be recombined until repaired(duh).

Or something like that. I don't code but I do see the logic in this. Part1 and Part2 are checked for inventory status(In Hand, In Inventory), and if both checksums equal 1, then the weapon is a 2handed weapon and the other mace is null until it is seperated again.

As for animating flails, just grab some animations from other games.

Just how much does one animation cost anyway? This can't be too hard... I have a cousin that does it professionally. He says it takes a few days but is quite easy(Weapon Animations from lvl 1-16 on a melee weapon). He also asked why the character uses the same sequence for all weapon types...

[GlassCannon]

The sheer physics required to fully immerse a person into a DnD Environ requires nonlinear, likely Quantum(Or better yet Molecular Fluid style, for lack of a better description, which would be identical in base design to our reality), processing and programming styles not yet invented.

Our technology will be ready in about 12 years(top of the line products, server costs being over $20,000 per unit, Biologic NeuroTech). In about 22 years said technology will be mainstream.

Our programming styles and speed need to become Direct Brain Network Interface to keep up with the hardware. DDO would likely consume about 562 Terrabytes of information to include every possible contingency, such as grabbing the chain on an enemy flail and swinging it into their skull while the halfling rogue slices their leg artery from underneath. Of course by that time and using a Direct Neural Network Interface, a person could apply a Non-UI interaction with said environment. DDO would be fully immersive, to the point that in real life they would attempt to cast a spell without realizing or acknowledging that the worlds are seperate.

[honkuimushi]

Double weapons are easy:

Setcondition: SetWeaponPart(1): Mace, SetWeaponPart(2): Mace, elseif DoubleMaceActivate SetWeaponPart1: DoubleMace, SetWeaponPart2: Null, Weapontype<2Handed>... (Edit): Damage= Permdamage+Damage<Doublemace>, elseif2weapon, PermdamageWeapon1, PermdamageWeapon2=PermdamageDoubleace/2, Damage = PermdamageDoubleMace/2| IfOddDamage, then StoreDamageNumber=DoublemaceOddDamage, IfDamageOnRecombine≠StoredDamage+AdditionalDamageW eapon1+AdditionalDamageweapon2, then SetDamage: StoredDamageNumber+AdditionalWeapon1Damage+Additio nalWeapon2Damage.

Store the Damages on seperation, apply at division by 2 unless a cache is kept for individual mace damage(which would be more prudent). Broken Doublemace Pieces cannot be recombined until repaired(duh).

Or something like that. I don't code but I do see the logic in this. Part1 and Part2 are checked for inventory status(In Hand, In Inventory), and if both checksums equal 1, then the weapon is a 2handed weapon and the other mace is null until it is seperated again.

As for animating flails, just grab some animations from other games.

Just how much does one animation cost anyway? This can't be too hard... I have a cousin that does it professionally. He says it takes a few days but is quite easy(Weapon Animations from lvl 1-16 on a melee weapon). He also asked why the character uses the same sequence for all weapon types...

I'm not going to comment directly on the coding section. I'm a microbiologist-- I haven't touched code since my Fortran 90/ C class in college. What makes double weapons difficult are all the ways they can be used.

First you need to come up with a system for dealing with enchantments on both heads. For most stuff, assuming that it's the same for both would work fine, for crafting... not so much. But the real issue is using them. You can use it with TWF and it treats the off hand as light. That means less penalties, but Power Attack gives an attack penalty to both hands, but the damage increase only works on the main hand. And weapon Finesse would work only on the off hand. You also do half strength damage on the off hand. Now if you have different enchantments on either head, you need a way to choose which head you want to use. That seems like a lot of work coding the exceptions and a way to choose which head you want to use in which hand.

But you don't have to use double weapons for TWF, you can also use them as for THF. In this case, you pick one head to use and you gain the 1.5x bonus to strength damage and double bonus for Power Attack just like using any other two hander. So now you need to devise a way to switch between THF and TWF and account for which head is being used. And this is in addition to the basic functionality. That strikes me as something requiring a fair amount of coding and QA work.

Sure, you could leave out the ability to switch, but that's really the main benefit to double weapons. You could just take OTWF and use 2 longswords and you have the same penalties as using a double sword, you still gain the benefit of feats like Weapon Focus in both hands, and you can use power attack for both hands. The cost is the same. Double weapons are nice because they can reduce the need for multiple weapons. Get different enchantments on each head, then switch to THF if one head is better than the other for a certain enemy. If situations change, you can swith to the other head or go back to TWF. In DDO, with the ability to switch weapons so quickly, it is less usefull, but it is still one of the key benefits for double weapons.

[Depravity]

One good tactic not allowed in SCA (due to possible injury ironicaly enough) is to try and just knock the guy down, then back up a step and smack them while they are down with the pole axe.

Or my personal favorite from european archers: fade into the woods, wait for the guy in the shiny suit to come in on foot, hit him with the big wooden hammer you use to drive stakes into the ground, then stick a dagger in his eyeslit when he falls over.

Not everyone around here wants to be the knight in shining armor. Some of us are just happy killing the other guy before he kills us.

Screw heroism - I'll take a cold beer and a warm wench* paid for out of my completely non-heroically gotten gains.

*No offense to our female players meant, it just seemed an appropriate reason for the traditional post-adventure pub run.

[Killdare]

Or my personal favorite from european archers: fade into the woods, wait for the guy in the shiny suit to come in on foot, hit him with the big wooden hammer you use to drive stakes into the ground, then stick a dagger in his eyeslit when he falls over.

Not everyone around here wants to be the knight in shining armor. Some of us are just happy killing the other guy before he kills us.

Screw heroism - I'll take a cold beer and a warm wench* paid for out of my completely non-heroically gotten gains.

*No offense to our female players meant, it just seemed an appropriate reason for the traditional post-adventure pub run.

+1

[LOUDRampart]

Meh.

I just want my spear and magic helmet.

[Invalid_86]

First off, wow. Just...wow.

But that's hunting, not heroic fantasy fighting. Spears aren't good for the kinds of combat the DDO parties do- the kind where you're massively outnumber but expect to win without much trouble.

Just a few of the reason spears aren't appropriate for representative PCs:
1. Long, hard to manuver through cramped openings

You forget that there are three types of spears in DnD-
Short spears. One handed, only about 5 feet long. In other words, smaller than a typical quarterstaff or longbow.
Spears. Maybe about a foot taller than a man. Can easily be taken into most dungeons.
Longspears. Basically a pike. Sorry, but unless you have alot of room this ain't happening.

2. Cheap. Spears are popular because they're inexpensive, but that's not an issue for heros. They can afford expensive weapons.
3. Simple. An untrained person can use a spear rather decently. Not a problem for PCs.

So what if they are cheap and easy to use? They work, and are flexible weapons. They can be used on foot, braced for a charge, thrown, or wielded from a mount.
Daggers, clubs, and quarterstaffs are all easy to use cheap weapons. Should we get rid of them?

4. Breakable. Spears tend to get broken in serious fighting. For normal people you don't expect to fight all day every day, so that's acceptable. Not for heros.

In many cases they are actually as sturdy as or sturdier than bows and quarterstaffs. I guess we should get rid of those weapons too.

5. Sticky. Spears tend to get stuck in the target after killing one enemy. Normal people you don't fight enough for that to be a big problem. Not so for heros.

That's a problem for lots of weapons. Again, not really a spear issue.

6. Groupable. Polearms are more effective against enemy humanoids when you're in a big group. Normal soldiers tend to do that, but heroic adventurers do not.

Not every spear is a polearm. Some are just hand weapons.

Those reasons are why, for example, in both Europe and Asia you had the sword elevated to a position of reverence within the knighthood, given symbolic power and reverent names, and used ceremonially to show the virtue of the ruling class. Even though polearms were often used by those very same people in wartime, such weapons just aren't heroic like a sword.

Again, not every spear is a polearm. And there are many, many instances of heroes taking spears into single combat.

As for Asian references? You do realize that samurai- who are often defined by their swords- also were frequently heavily trained in spears? As were martial artists?

Oh yeah, and as far as spears appearing in the PHB you must have overlooked the spears description where it says it is favored by sorcerers and druids. Sounds like an endorsement to me.

PS. Gladiator changed from a war movie at the start to heroic adventure later, at which point the weapons changed from spears to swords, as appropriate to the new genre.

....or they were being faithful to their source. Gladiators were named for the gladius- a short stabbing sword that they used in the arenas.

As long as we are talking about movies......check out in Troy what weapon Achilles used alot in battle- especially in his duel.

When it comes to weapons, many just are NOT suitable for a given environment while other weapons will be. If you are in a narrow passage, a dagger or short sword are FAR better because you can use them. A long sword or most other weapons are too large to really work in confined spaces.

Now, DDO does not take space requirements into consideration when it comes to just about anything. Notice that weapons and armor take the same amount of inventory space as even a tiny object. This is really something that people don't take into account.

If you look at a spear, or any other pole arm, unless you have a magically telescoping version that extends at will, how can you even hope to hold the thing when going through twisty passages? If you want these types of weapons, then you are also asking for limitations on their use, such as where you can use them, in addition to where you can use them without penalty. While they are at it, they would need to put in restrictions for all the other weapons to be fair. How about putting range restrictions on bows and thrown weapons(something long overdue IMO).

Be careful what you wish for, because if you get it, you may get more than you expected.

Again, not every spear is a polearm.

Now if you are talking about space restrictions you'd also be looking at pulling greatswords, mauls, greataxes, greatclubs, falchions, and so on. They require far more space to use than a normal spear.