Am I ready? (getting ready for shroud completions)

[Aranticus]

so what is this about? just do the 5 flagging quests and craft the signet stone? no, its not so simple. this is about how to get one ready so that he/she can contribute an active role in keeping the party going so that completion may be achieved. why am i writing this? in part, i'm fustrated about some players that are always riding on the coattails of others. its not about me being uber or elite. its about being a party and how one can contribute, how one can listen to the advice of the more experienced to bring about success.

melees
by melee, i mean any toon using a melee weapon for fights. there are 2 basic types: squishy and tank. typically, the requirements are the same. a vorpal for the orthons, devils and cats. wounding and/or puncturing weapons are also very useful but it means a coordinated effort is required, this means as far as possible, as many in the party are using these weapons to take the con of the mob out more quickly. a dps type for healing gnolls, trogs. a DR type for fiend. the early fights are quite routine. it gets difficult for the fiend.

squishy melee types (esp if you are below 250, ok for 250-300 if you have evasion) should not even attempt to melee the fiend. a failed save on his delayed blast fireball hits for 200+ fire damage. each melee hit (he misses only on a roll of 1 and he cleaves) deals about 50 damage and he attacks real fast. tanks going toe to toe with the fiend should have at least 350 hp. have fire prot potions so that you can reduce the impact of the fireballs

what about the weapons used on the fiend. on normal, some weapons are better than a DR type (able to bypass DR) weapon but on hard and elite, DR is more important. the DR on normal is calculated to be 15/good+silver. in order to bypass the damage you need both good/holy and silver on your weapon. else, a transmuter works. most of my fail runs are due to headstrong stubbon melees who think that their "uber" weapon is better than a transmuter. i'll use a shroud ++ greatsword in comparison with a +5 transmuting greatsword of pure good.

++ greatsword: base damage 3d6+5, holy 2d6, goodburst 1d6, 4d6 if crit. average damage = 26 per hit, 52 on crit

in 20 attacks, assuming hit on a roll of 2, crits confirmed, imp crit slash, total average damage = 598. however, the fiend has a DR which ++ is unable to overcome meaning 15 is deducted from each hit, results in 285 being deducted, so the new damage = 313

+5 transmuter of pg: base damage 2d6+5, pure good 1d6. average damage = 15.5, 27.5 on crit

if the same comparison was used, total average damage = 342.5. since a transmuter is used, no damage is lost due to DR. simple mathematical comparison 342.5 > 313. +5 transmuter of pure good is better!

unless you can prove otherwise, quit arguing that your ++ is better. in hard or elite runs, the disparity increases as the DR increases.

what about the squishy types that are not able to withstand the damage dealt by the fiend? simple, dun even try to melee! just stay back, pull out a transmuting bow or returner or any ranged weapon that can bypass DR and fire at him. keeping a squishy is extremely hard to do and also extremely resource wasting. that said, i've seen some fantastic squishy types that can melee the fiend without getting to much damage. if you belong to this category, feel free, but most are not. however, you can practice to become as good as these players. the fiend has 2 attacks, frontal (normal) and area (cleave). generally, the better "light" players would approach the fiend from the rear so as to reduce the number of attacks. positioning is also important. standing a little further away using your reach will allow you not to get hit much by being out of the fiend's range

last but not least, if you are meleeing the fiend, do have disease immunity items on. poison while important can be easily avoided by use of the cleric/range spell. unless you are a pally, there is no way to avoid the str damage disease the fiend deals cept by using a DI item. 0 str = useless tank.

[Aranticus]

ranged
so what is a ranged toon's role in shroud? melees are fantastic dps machines but ranged toons need alot less healing since the fiend is a melee based mob. sure he can throw fireballs, but most range toons have evasion and a high reflex. give them a fire prot, the fire prot can last the whole battle. for a ranged toon, its best if you go melee for parts 1-2. against the portals, the ROF of a bow is not going to cut it. grab 2 portal busters and get on it.

from my runs, the best portal busters are as follows: true chaos of gtr construct bane > gtr construct bane > true chaos of pure good OR bane > true chaos OR pure good OR lesser bane. with enfeebling the portal still an unknown, i'd rather not include maiming in.

in part 2 its similar, many of mobs are more easily beaten down by a vorpal. for the bosses, going ranged is sometimes an excellent idea. some of the bosses are slow and can be kited easily to allow the rest of the party to ready the final countdown to kill everything.

in part 4, the range toons are best serving the party by ranging. if you have the hp and the right melee weapons, go ahead and melee if you want to, but if you are squishy, then loading a bow/arrows that can bypass the DR is often the best idea. often than not, one of the best weapon is the silver bow. load it up with silver arrows (note a silver bow is NOT silver) and u can punch the fiend good. i'll now do a comparison between a silver bow and a +2 holy burst longbow.

silver bow: base damage 1d10 (crits on 19-20), holy 2d6. average damage = 14.5 per hit, 29.5 on crit

same as the melee weapon comparison, in 20 attacks, the total average damage = 335.5

+2 holy burst: base damage 1d8 (crits on 19), holy burst 2d6, 2d6+2d10 on crit. average damage = 13.5 per hit, 37.5 on crit

in 20 attack, total average damage = 304.5 (percent of silver bow = 90.8&#37

the silver bow wins if we just simply compare it to a holy burst by means of a higher base damage as well as a larger crit range. this disparity will even be larger should there be other bonuses factored in ie lets do a comparison with +10 damage bonus

silver bow: average damage = 24.5 per hit, 59.5 on crit. total average damage = 605.5
+2 holy burst: average damage = 23.5 per hit, 67.5 on crit. total average damage = 534.5 (percent of silver bow = 88.3%)

so quit arguing that the L6 silver bow is gimped. its not, it you who insist your +2 holy burst bow is better who is gimped

that said, dps isnt everything, since you are not directly involved in combat, you can perform many other roles. if you have a res clickie, bring up dead comrades. if u can help heal the incapped caster or cleric, it will be fantastic. if you have sp or is able to umd, help buff, esp in part 5, so that dead tanks can go in with a little more ability. dps is important but so is keep the party active in combat. the more active members there are, the easier is the fight if everyone contributes in the right way

[Aranticus]

casters
this i refer to wizzys and sorcs. i'm not going to separate the 2 classes, instead i'll just lump them broadly into nuker/killer and general purpose. i have the luxury to group with some of khyber's best casters. boldrin on his wiz, sirgog and mavnimo on their sorcs and a few others. i could see from their style of play 2 different aspects which i listed them earlier. generally in my runs, i like to have 2 casters, 1 from each of the group i specified.

nuker/killer
this is a caster specialised to kill. in part 1, 2 and 4, there are many non-boss mobs to be killed. many players are unable to excel in this role due to a few oversights. the main one would be the protection on a mob. the mobs in shroud have spell resistance. some are high enough to resist most of your spells. if you did not put in some effort, mainly spell penetration feats, enhancements and items, you will not be able to pentrate this 1st layer of defence. next is the high fort save of some mobs, esp orthons. spell focus necromancy (for FoD) or illusion (PK) and spell focus items will help in landing the spells more frequently. in part one, most of the time, the nuker/killer will roam the area, going to existing portals check for the portal keepers. they are also the ones who will take out the odd devil or orthon quickest which helps the healers in terms of resources.

the only problem i see for most nukers/killers are their inability to conserve their spell points. the best of them out there normally have the dq torc and/or the shroud +- double shard tier3 item. these 2 items serves to refill the caster with sp points by taking hits. in order to do that, the caster ability to mitigate damage has to be fantastic. stoneskin and other damage reduction items will serve to help the caster survive when trying to recover sp.

in the boss fights, the nuker/killer is the force multiplier. the best of them out there can solo bosses (in part 2 or 5) by themselves thus free-ing up members of the party for other purposes. acid/solid fog coupled with firewall (non-fire resistant types) or straight out nukage with cone of cold or polar ray (fire resistant types) allow them to quickly prepare the bosses for the final kill.

in part 4, they alone can handle most of the healing gnolls, thus allowing the melees to be able to engage the fiend earlier and thus deal more damage. their ability to nuke also allow them to quickly turn the heat up on the fiend. this is especially useful when the blades are closing in and the fiend has to be killed quickly in order to avoid another pass. in part 5, they can straight out dps the fiend, return to the pools for more sp for more nukage. the faster the fiend is brought down the less amount of resources has to be used.

the problem with nuker/killer wannabes is that they try to emulate their illustrious peers. unfortunately, without the gear or the knowledge or ability. many run out of sp quickly. they finger or pk everything, instead on focusing on "prime" targets such as casters, keeper, orthons, devils. they lack spell pen, requiring 4-5 attempts for a successful pk. they do not react quickly, standing foolishly after nuking the fiend instead of going to refill sp in the pools. copying peers is one thing, learning from them is another, if you see something others do better than you can, ask and learn. this way, you improve your skill and is able to bring more to the party

general purpose
this are the one that are like a multipurpose machine. they buff, they crowd control, they nuke all rolled into one. GP casters are the ones you find mainly tossing down webs, finger/pk the odd portal keeper. while their role is not as specific, they fill a broader concept. the cc they toss mitigate the damage taken by the party, less damage = less heals = less resources used, do the math, its a winning solution. GP casters have a multiplier effect due to the ability to buff as well. resists, true sight, haste, rage, GH enhance the performance of the players. when extra dps is needed, they can also lay down massive firewalls, cone of cold to kill bosses. GP casters can also debuff making bosses weaker

crowd control - bring web, heightened. no SR check, mobs low reflex. gtr shout also works stunning mobs as does symbol of stunning. disco is not preferred as it somehow causes lag and has a SR check. acid fog is extremely useful due to the ability to conceal and to slow mobs

buffs - resists, GH, rage, blur, true sight

nukes - firewall, sorch ray, cone of cold and the entire arsenal

debuffs - ray of enfeeblement, waves of fatigue, waves of exhaustion and crushing dispair

basically the GP caster plays more of a supportive role assisting the party in a multitude of ways. the final fight is often made easier by a GP caster that debuffs the fiend making the attacks slower and less deadly. however, this task is not easy as the fiend has a SR of about 35. it can be made easier should 1 of the melee uses a shattermantle on the fiend.

so are the two types of casters separate and different? yes and no. basically a nuker/killer can get some aspects of the GP caster but not all. since a nuker/killer requires fast killing and a huge sp, they are almost always sorcs. the GP caster requires versatility which is best exhibited by a wiz. the way certain runs are made is dependant on whom you have and what spells they have. if you run with a nuker/killer without web, most likely in part 2, the party will go the "largest group" moves tactic. with a caster with web, most will just run to south central and toss webs. a nuker/killer makes portal keeper duty extremely easy but a GP caster will generally require some help. when fighting the fiend, groups with a GP caster will find it easier on the healers due to the slower and less powerful attacks. group with a nuker will find the fiend die faster. either ways, both caster helps in different ways but the end result is also always similar

last but not least, what do you do when there is a lull period, say in part 4 or 5. there are many thing you can do. a caster can, re-fire prot tanks, use a bow or returner (may miss often but some damage > 0 damage, help heal (no umd, help heal wf. with umd, help heal fleshies). there are plently to do, it whether you want to do it or not and whether you are prepare or not

[Aranticus]

healers
this is prolly the part i'm going to get the most flak, so i apologise in advance should i offend anyone unknowingly. who are healers? anyone with spells, scrolls or wands can be healers. the only difference is the efficency. clerics are the best in this category so i'm gonna describe more about them. bards next, lastly casters and umd toons.

the main role of healers is of coz to keep everyone alive and kicking. inexperienced healers are often the major cause of failure in part 4 as the dead cannot be rez-ed. in part 5, the most critical is dps but healing is important too. if you cant keep up the tanks, they cannot dps, you get the idea.

for anyone who is going to perform the healer's role, it is important to be good in sp management. more importantly, external resources such as pots and scrolls is a must. before you flame me, let me explain more. now, when a shroud is comprised of experienced players, external resource use is next to 0. but khyber has a long tradition of pugging and we know in pugs, all the wrong stuff can happen. as a healer, one has to be prepared for such an event. i'd suggest having at least 5 major pots, 100 heal scrolls, 100 mcmw scrolls as back up. like many others, i do not endorse the use of these external resources but if you do not have them, it can be very hard to rescue a dire situation. i had to put forth such a request as in some of my runs, there are healers who absolutely refuse to use any external resources. no offence to them, but they are not helping the party by just standing around, doing absolutely nothing. more often than not, should the run be difficult, players are more likely to help share the cost, however, this is only after they know you are willing to party with your own resource. this is prolly also a side effect of many clerics demanding payment before expenditure only to have the party not require additional resources.

does this mean that only the healers have to be prepared? no. everyone have to. everyone should be as self sufficent as possible to minimise the impact on the healers. strength damage from fiend? get a DI, the healer could be busy healing the rest. need fire prot and they are out of sp? chug a pot. more importantly, the rest of the party must be able to get someone up should a situation turn bad. i've been in a situation where someone new accidentally activated the fire ele and ran it to the group. fireballs left, right, up, down, centre = dead party. wipe? no, a surviving melee ran the bosses around, shrugging away the attacks, downing haste n csw pots. this allowed another melee to get a cleric up with a true res. while the 1st melee kited the bosses, the party reorganised and situation was saved. like i said in the previous posts. this is a team effort, everyone has to be prepared.

clerics
when players look for clerics in shroud runs and the current group is melee heavy, it means "I NEED A CLERIC THAT HEALS". simple as that. should you be that offensive cleric or a battle cleric, do think twice about joining. if you are willing to forgo your style and be a primary healer, sure go ahead. but if you want to tank, then give it a skip, unless you can tank and keep everyone alive at the same time. i have seen some of these in my run. cleric swopped in cloudburst, destructed gnolls, charge at fiend, *BOOM* got fried. party down 1 cleric. it doesnt help. that said, i've seen some great clerics tank the fiend, keeping everyone alive with quickened mass heals. such clerics are far and few but they make the run so much easier

a cleric can help in so many ways. in part 1, they can backup portal keeper control. in part 2, lay massive blade barriers for the party to pull the mobs in when clearing the area. in part 4 and 5, they are almost exclusively healers. some offensive types can actually contribute by tanking or launching offensive spells. the keyword here is balance. going on the offensive when the fiend is almost dead is fine but not at the beginning of the fight

clerics can also buff to. deathward, spell resistance, resists, prayer, recitation are all in the arsenal of a cleric. since you have them, why not use them? poison resist is also another good spell to have due to trog and fiend poison.

bards
bards can be healers too since the can have access to healing spells. most healing bards are virtuosos or spellsingers (chanters usually can melee). bards provide another dimension in that they can not only just heal but also provide arcane buffs and crowd control. keep up buffs such as displacement, blur, GH, haste, rage and more importantly, songs, you can make the party a fearsome force.

casters
repair, warforge goes hand in hand. sometimes the wf can be the most damaging melee in the party (due to wf power attack) but most of them do not heal as well as they deal damage. a caster with reconstruction spells can actually play a "healing" role should wf be around

umd toons
this group while can heal, shouldnt be the primary healers. almost all the healing done is by scrolls which make its very expensive to run. their main role should almost alway be "wipe prevention". many of these toons are evasion based which makes them excellent candidates for that last man standing role. they are also likely to be experienced in agro management and hence able to wriggle a way out should the main healers perish

in the fights in part 4 and 5, there are 2 ways to go about it. it is important to know it so the best straegty is followed.

hero - in the hero method, the leader generally select a core group of players who will beat the fiend. healers mainly focus their heal on the melee assigned to them. this method is good when there are many ranged toons around or if the dps is not distributed evenly. single target spells are used to conserve sp. this technique is almost always external resource dependant due to the slow cool down of the heal spell. be prepared for scroll usage should this be select.

mass - in the mass fight, all the melees charge the fiend. healing is done by the healers targetting mass heals on a select toon. this is often the choice if the melees are excellent, there is a lack of ranged players. due to the AOE effect of mass heals, more players can be healed at once. scroll usage is generally low but if there are many coattailers around, it can get ugly easily as the mana sponges take damage quick and thus need more heals

most of the time, healers spend their time healing. however, they can contribute in much more ways. divine favor and divine favor, coupled with prayer can make a healer a portal buster. healing clerics can also configure to supply some last ditched effort in nuking the fiend. a healer is much more than a healer but a healer needs to know when to heal

[Aranticus]

bards
this is perhaps one of the most important class that all shroud group will want to have. bard songs have the ability to increase the damage of everyone within range. a bard can also heal and buff. some are specced for melee and can fight. with the addition of the shroud skill or charisma items, many mule bards have come out of the closet to run shroud. please for goodness sake, beef up the song. i've been in a group with a bard who's song gives a measely +2 to damage. such players instead of contributing, merely takes up space for someone who is more qualified. imo, if you are a L16 full bard, there is no excuse that your song should be less than +6 damage. duration can be shorter (5-6 min instead of 7+) but not the damage

buffing should be done automatically, a bard can GH, blur, rage, haste, give them out so this will save the casters sp which will be used for spells like fire prot, acid fog, etc. can a bard attempt to crowd control? yes and no. most bards do not have spell pen feats or enhancements, with the high SR, danceballs and such are often more of a hindrance (causes lag) than help. healing? yes certainly, if you can heal, by all means help the healers out if you have sp. various bards can have different effect on the party. warchanters make the melees more fearsome. spellsingers make spells less costly. as for virtuosos, i have to apologise i have little understanding of them and thus unable to comment

what if the bard runs out of sp, scrolls can be umd'ed, but it can get expensive unless you're ok with the expenses. imo, pull out a range weapon and try pepper the fiend with arrows bolts etc. some may think its fruitless but not trying at all is even worse. get a destruction weapon, u help lower the ac. get a shattermantle, you lower the SR. each bit helps and contributes to the overall effort.

rogues
rogues are perhaps one of the most under-rated classes in shroud. many groups do not like one, thinking they are "squishy". this is compounded by the fact that the only "true" rogue ability required is open locks which can be substituted by a caster with knock. rogue = dps. with their sneak attacks, they are devastating in their own right. even if they are "squishy" many do carry bows to range and with a sufficiently high dex to consistently hit the fiend

in part 1, rogues can roam the area with the casters. with umd, they can keep the caster alive. they can also help the caster clear portals. a well placed mass hold mean death for the mobs when the rogue is near. in part 2, their evasion ability usually means they are the best to go up against the gnoll (blade barriers), fire ele (fireball). with other mobs, if they have umd, they can act as a healer, dps-ing should there be a need to

part 3 is where rogue-playing players need to control their impulses. unlock doors as quickly as possible and stay out of rooms. i've seen way to many rogues try to solve a puzzles only to have the prismatic wall popping up. problem is... there was no other lock picker. in part 4 and 5, rogues can dps the fiend too. as described earlier, learn to stay out of the fiends attack arc or range. if things heat up too much, stay back, use a range weapon or umd heals

as mentioned, no member of a shroud party should ever rely on the rest to carry them through. if you are not configured for shroud, then beef up your abilities before joining one. when you are in one, do not hesitate to ask should u need help or want to know more. learn, observe, reflect, adapt. this helps you become a better player. it helps you get more parties. prove your worth and others will respect you. i have done the same for my toons. my bard was originally adapted for haggle. i respecced it so i could better help the party. my cleric is an offensive build, i healbotted in shroud. i'm not saying everyone should do what i did. i'm saying put the party objective before you own. you joined a shroud run for the ingredients and loot. the more you can contribute, the greater the chance of success, that simple.

ps: just in case detractors wonder what makes me qualified to say all this, i've run a fighter, a ranger, a wizard, a cleric, a paladin and a bard in shroud. i've lead groups, one was w/o voice even. i've run with some of the best in khyber, players like quicktoe, norg, mavnimo, torosar, soulzen, and many others. no i'm not trying to brag about my achievement, its just that there are always some that will come in and rip apart posts like this. if you have a problem with this thread, do let me know, so i can edit and improve on it and cover a greater base

[Wizzly_Bear]

all sounds like standard protocol and accurate so far. i would suggest moving to strategy guide section though.

[Boldrin]

I think this is more Khyber specific, helping people who just don't know on our server... Shug, i'll guarantee you, none of those guys visit the forums, lol.

[Wizzly_Bear]

I think this is more Khyber specific, helping people who just don't know on our server... Shug, i'll guarantee you, none of those guys visit the forums, lol.

lol, indeed. if they wanted to do better they would seek it out already. i applaud the effort though.

[...v...]

I find it best just not to say anything to anyone and add the ones to your friends list that you don’t like or think are under achievers =). As soon as someone says anything about anyone’s toon or perhaps try to give suggestions all hell breaks loose. Lots of people playing DDO that have p.m.s. so be aware.

[Galvis]

I think this is more Khyber specific, helping people who just don't know on our server... Shug, i'll guarantee you, none of those guys visit the forums, lol.

Actually I'm on the forums trying to gain as much info about raids as possible. I have never really been able to run too many raids (Reaver excluded). Heck, I've only done the Titan like 4 or 5 times...lol. I have only run the shroud one time on Boozr and we only made it too part IV.

The first part seemed routine, though I don't remember which portals show up and where.

The second part was fun, running through a maze killing mobs is my kind of good time.

The third part I don't have a clue about. There was a puzzle on the floor, I said I was only in room, and all knew it was first time in Shroud (as I announced it several times), Lendra came in the room solved the puzzle, and we were looting chests... I still don't know what happened.

Part IV we lost 2 tanks and a clr early, so there wasn't enough DPS/Healing for the Fiend.


I enjoy reading about strategies and do and don'ts so when I can get into Raids I am not a complete liability.

Aranticus I would be interested in knowing what you percieve the Casters role in the Shroud should be. Boozr is a Sorc, and he is currently my only Shroud ready Character. He is a semi Squishy (only 215 hp's), non-melee.

Anyways, I just wanted to let people know that there are people our here that actually read the forums and try to gather some info from them.

[Boldrin]

Actually I'm on the forums trying to gain as much info about raids as possible. I have never really been able to run too many raids (Reaver excluded). Heck, I've only done the Titan like 4 or 5 times...lol. I have only run the shroud one time on Boozr and we only made it too part IV.

The first part seemed routine, though I don't remember which portals show up and where.

The second part was fun, running through a maze killing mobs is my kind of good time.

The third part I don't have a clue about. There was a puzzle on the floor, I said I was only in room, and all knew it was first time in Shroud (as I announced it several times), Lendra came in the room solved the puzzle, and we were looting chests... I still don't know what happened.

Part IV we lost 2 tanks and a clr early, so there wasn't enough DPS/Healing for the Fiend.


I enjoy reading about strategies and do and don'ts so when I can get into Raids I am not a complete liability.

Aranticus I would be interested in knowing what you percieve the Casters role in the Shroud should be. Boozr is a Sorc, and he is currently my only Shroud ready Character. He is a semi Squishy (only 215 hp's), non-melee.

Anyways, I just wanted to let people know that there are people our here that actually read the forums and try to gather some info from them.

Good, I'm glad you do Booz, but I'm sure you've seen a large number of people lately think they know things, but are clueless. I'm glad you're taking some time to become a more informed player, I just wish more would do so

An your sorc should probably have a few spells prepped, i actually have swapped out 3 or 4 spells on my sorc lately, Knock is important, as well as Acid fog, and web. Disco ball is another good one, and you really need magic missile, had a WIZARD in party that had No FW and no MM!!! Made him almost useless in certain areas.

[Riot]

a vorpal for the orthons, devils and cats. a dps type for healing gnolls, trogs.

Since you are giving advise, perhaps you'll be open to taking some.

Wounding and/or puncturing weapons for ALL non boss mobs. If everyone does this, it's faster than DPS or Vorpals.
EXCEPT for The healing gnolls in Part 4, in which case 2 handed DPS. Since you are split up for these.

Secondly, you left out a weapon for the Pit Fiend. Silver + Holy Bypasses his DR.
Technically +3 Silver Holy of Righteousness is > a +5 Transmuter of Pure Good.

[sirgog]

Good, I'm glad you do Booz, but I'm sure you've seen a large number of people lately think they know things, but are clueless. I'm glad you're taking some time to become a more informed player, I just wish more would do so

An your sorc should probably have a few spells prepped, i actually have swapped out 3 or 4 spells on my sorc lately, Knock is important, as well as Acid fog, and web. Disco ball is another good one, and you really need magic missile, had a WIZARD in party that had No FW and no MM!!! Made him almost useless in certain areas.

Polar Ray is a perfectly good substitute for Magic Missile if you want to do damage to the Pit Fiend. Unless you are force-specced, MM does next to no damage anyway. Spells with Reflex saves are weaker than usual on Arraetrikos as he has a very high Reflex save and Evasion on Hard and Elite.

[Mavnimo]

Just to help out a little. concerning melee. squishies should be more careful when fighting the pit fiend but shouldn't be reduced to only ranging. if anyone takes the time to pay attention cleave is a frontal attack and can be avoided. yes it takes a little practice and alot of moving but this is ddo and the great thing about ddo is the interactive combat system, so use it and attack him from behind.

in addition to the melee part u might want to add a little often overlooked thing called glancing blows. a transmuter will allow those glancing blows to do more damage. also take into acct that the pit fiend has 50% fortification.

one of my concerns is the reduced number of arcane casters allowed in shroud runs. the shroud has been done with all sorts of group makeups, but when i see lfm's with 1 caster in group and they aren't looking for more, or are only looking for sorcs, i think its a little biased. wizard can debuff the pit fiend to reduce the amount of damage he does. sorc can help with heal scrolls with high enough umd. arcanes can also kill gnolls alot faster then any melee ever could.

for ur caster section if u want to add it. sold fog grants concealment and yes it does affect the pit fiend, he misses more. wave of exhaustion override any other fatigue spell. ray of enfeeble stacks with the str debuff from waves. solid also reduces the damage he deals. crushing despair if u can land it also works. symbols of pain and weakness will also land if he fails his save.

another big peeve of mine is the backseat leaders that join raids. i understand some people just put things together cuz no one else will, and if they ask for help by all means help them. but if someone takes it upon themselves to lead a raid then follow the leaders directions. if u don't like it then form ur own raid.

bit of ranting towards the end but id also like to see "pugs" get completions done aswell

[Aranticus]

Since you are giving advise, perhaps you'll be open to taking some.

Wounding and/or puncturing weapons for ALL non boss mobs. If everyone does this, it's faster than DPS or Vorpals.
EXCEPT for The healing gnolls in Part 4, in which case 2 handed DPS. Since you are split up for these.

Secondly, you left out a weapon for the Pit Fiend. Silver + Holy Bypasses his DR.
Technically +3 Silver Holy of Righteousness is > a +5 Transmuter of Pure Good.

point taken, wounding and/or puncturing is good for all non boss mobs, but the question is how many people really take the mobs out? apart from the initial pulling in part 1, most of the runs i see usually only have one or 2 people on orthon/devil duty. nonetheless, i'll update on this suggestion

i did not leave out silver + holy, i represented it as good/holy and silver. you are right in that a +3 silver holy of righteousness is better than +5 transmuter of pure good. in some of my runs, if i have the time, i'd go thru with the melees i run with the best weapon to use. the point i'm trying to make is the +, the prefixes, the suffixes do not necessarily mean more damage if you are not doing enough to offset the DR of fiend.

[Aranticus]

Just to help out a little. concerning melee. squishies should be more careful when fighting the pit fiend but shouldn't be reduced to only ranging. if anyone takes the time to pay attention cleave is a frontal attack and can be avoided. yes it takes a little practice and alot of moving but this is ddo and the great thing about ddo is the interactive combat system, so use it and attack him from behind.

in addition to the melee part u might want to add a little often overlooked thing called glancing blows. a transmuter will allow those glancing blows to do more damage. also take into acct that the pit fiend has 50% fortification.

one of my concerns is the reduced number of arcane casters allowed in shroud runs. the shroud has been done with all sorts of group makeups, but when i see lfm's with 1 caster in group and they aren't looking for more, or are only looking for sorcs, i think its a little biased. wizard can debuff the pit fiend to reduce the amount of damage he does. sorc can help with heal scrolls with high enough umd. arcanes can also kill gnolls alot faster then any melee ever could.

for ur caster section if u want to add it. sold fog grants concealment and yes it does affect the pit fiend, he misses more. wave of exhaustion override any other fatigue spell. ray of enfeeble stacks with the str debuff from waves. solid also reduces the damage he deals. crushing despair if u can land it also works. symbols of pain and weakness will also land if he fails his save.

another big peeve of mine is the backseat leaders that join raids. i understand some people just put things together cuz no one else will, and if they ask for help by all means help them. but if someone takes it upon themselves to lead a raid then follow the leaders directions. if u don't like it then form ur own raid.

bit of ranting towards the end but id also like to see "pugs" get completions done aswell

note taken and updated

[Angelus_dead]

Since you are giving advise, perhaps you'll be open to taking some.
Wounding and/or puncturing weapons for ALL non boss mobs. If everyone does this, it's faster than DPS or Vorpals.

That might be true if they had less than 20 consitution. But since they have more, vorpalling is faster.

[Riot]

That might be true if they had less than 20 consitution. But since they have more, vorpalling is faster.

I'll take that bet.... Speed run, my guild with wounding/Puncturing Vs. yours with Vorpals.

[Desteria]

if the same comparison was used, total average damage = 342.5. since a transmuter is used, no damage is lost due to DR. simple mathematical comparison 342.5 > 313. +5 transmuter of pure good is better!

unless you can prove otherwise, quit arguing that your ++ is better. in hard or elite runs, the disparity increases as the DR increases.

TO add to this IF that is a 2 hand weapon you ALSO lose 15 damage off every glancing blow when your not transmuting for an even bigger diference.

I know when i post a Run i want my dps people to have at least a +3 transmuter thast not asking much at all they are a literly a dime a dozzen on the AH, I ask my melle what wepaon they plan to use, beacuse I also know wich few will beat out bypassing his DR, purty much has to be one handed to do it beacsue of the glancing blow issue.

Note my excusivly sword and board pally pulsl out a 2hander for him as well my ac will never make him miss any way, IT is possibel to get AC to the poitn where he starts to miss a lot It takes mid to high 60's in part 4 and higher in part 5

[Riot]

i did not leave out silver + holy, i represented it as good/holy and silver.

Sorry mised that.. just saw your Transmuter example, and thought "hey, silver/holy is actually better". But either way, yer right.. bypassing DR is > than fighting over the top.