Turning, yes Turning.

[Jadeare]

Before we start i should point out that i know the opinion of most is that turning is almost useless. Yes i tend to agree.

I have been looking into it just as i am leveling up my cleric, ran delera's the other day and found out a couple of interesting things.

Sacred bonus's from the spell (seek eternal rest +4) and items (ie sacred neclace +2) stack.

Turbine's custom mobs such as the skeletal arcus and ghostly skeleton are beyond crazy. Skeletal arcus's have at least 12 hd i believe. correct me if i am wrong as it wasnt very scientific testing just spent the whole quest watching my combat log and letting over zealous sorcs die.

Arcane skeletons (arguably the cause of many a party wipe in there) are easily destroyed (lvl 3 cleric on normal dif)

Wights and their priestly companions are more easily destroyed than mr "I have more hp than your entire party" Skeletal Arcus's.

The maximum HD a 16 cleric can turn is 29 yeah? (Seek eternal rest, sacred, Improved turning III, 16th Level, Favourable roll on turning table: 4+2+3+16+4=29). Is this right?

The most HD total a cleric can turn is about 38... (LVL+2d6+Charisma mod:16+12+10). This is assuming a massive investment into charisma and not very likely... i dont think.

Ok, just looking for confirmation that these numbers are about right and to get an idea of the HD of some undead. Any examples people can give and how they came to deduce these HD would be great. I used turning to try and work out a skeletal arcus's HD.

FEED ME YOUR NUMBERS!

and opinions.

[Twerpp]

Just toss a heal on the guy with the 800 hit point firewalls. If you really feel the need to contribute to the dps you can toss him mass heals. Easier than all the trouble of turning.

[Vardak]

Just toss a heal on the guy with the 800 hit point firewalls. If you really feel the need to contribute to the dps you can toss him mass heals. Easier than all the trouble of turning.

Hmm, My lvl 4 cleric absolutely crushed the will out of the DPS crowd in Part one of delera's, after that turn gets less useful. Personally I think Improved Turning should scale much higher more like +2/4/6 instead of 1/2/3, Seek eternal rest should scale based on caster lvl say 2 + vl/2, and higher lvl Sacred items should exist.

A cleric should be able to turn on an appropriate lvl quest somewhat reliably.

[MrCow]

Skeletal arcus's have at least 12 hd i believe.

A skeleton arcus has 8/13/15 HD (on normal/hard/elite respectively).

This list of HD for undead critters that is currently stored in the DDO Catalog:

Name			Difficulty	HD	TurnResist
Skeleton		Solo		1	
Zombie			Solo		1	
Skeleton Warrior	Solo		1	
Elf Zombie		Solo		1	
Dwarf Zombie		Solo		1	
Ghoul			Solo		1	
Skeleton Warrior	Normal		1	
Skeleton		Normal		1	
Slain Guardsman		Normal		1	
Decrepit Skeleton	Solo		1	
Slain Guardsman		Solo		1	
Captain of the Guard	Solo		1	
Zombie			Normal		2	
Decrepit Skeleton	Normal		2	
Ghoul			Normal		2	2
Skeleton		Hard		3	
Skeleton Skirmisher	Normal		3	
Skeleton Swordsman	Normal		3	
Slain Guardsman		Hard		3	
Arcane Skeleton		Normal		3	
Slain Guardsman		Elite		4	
Decrepit Skeleton	Hard		4	
Ghast			Normal		4	2
Wight			Normal		4	0
Skeleton		Elite		5	
Skeleton Skirmisher	Elite		5	
Skeleton Swordsman	Hard		5	
Wraith			Normal		5	2
Arcane Skeleton		Hard		5	
Armored Wight		Normal		6	0
Wight Priest		Normal		6	0
Ghast			Hard		6	2
Wight			Hard		6	0
Canton Parthilcar	Hard		7	
Decrepit Skeleton	Elite		7	
Spectre			Normal		7	2
Mummy			Normal		8	
Skeleton Swordsman	Elite		8	
Arcane Skeleton		Elite		8	
Skeleton Arcus		Normal		8	0
Wight Myrmidon		Normal		8	0
Shadow			Normal		8	2
Spectre			Hard		9	2
Ghast			Elite		10	2
Dread Zombie		Normal		12	0
Armored Wight		Hard		12	0
Wight Priest		Hard		12	0
Wight			Elite		12	0
Spectre			Elite		12	2
Skeleton Arcus		Hard		13	0
Vampiric Priest of Vol	Normal		14	
Vampiric Knight of Vol	Normal		14	
Wight Myrmidon		Hard		14	0
Armored Wight		Elite		14	0
Wight Priest		Elite		14	0
Skeleton Arcus		Elite		15	0
Dread Zombie		Hard		15	0
Dread Zombie		Elite		18	0
Blackbone Thrall	Elite		24

This HD found here have been found through a mixture of turn undead (cower version), total HD number with multiple undead around, intimidate, undeath to death, words from developers (namely DeadlyGazebo), a bit of prior knowledge from the DDO rules that carried over, and so forth.

You can not rely on turn undead (destroy version) as sometimes it tends to fluctuate slightly. I've been known to destroy a Normal difficulty Slain Guardsman (1 HD) on a turning check of 0 HD or cower it on a turning check of 2 HD. However, I've yet to see a HD-based flaw on turn undead (cower version).

[Jadeare]

I must have been on hard when i noticed my failed turning attempt on the arcus (even when i rolled nicely)

I knew i could rely on you for numbers mrcow, i tip my cowbell to you sir.

Well it does seem turning is destined to not be a room clearing effect. One can always dream.

[Zenako]

While it is not a "I own this quest!" effect, it is useful and you get the Turn Undead Feature for free. With Seek Eternal Rest and Sacred Item you can be effective in many quests with undead. There is also an item from the Orchard that helps with turning if you get it. The cower action sometimes takes a moment to kick in so it might seem the turn is not doing anything, but what I think is happening is the mob finishes its active action and then cowers or flees and cowers. Once cowered they are punching bags for a bit. While I don't expect to have many very high CHA clerics around, it is not that hard to get a nice +4 or +5 net boost (18 to 20) by late game.

Note also that there is a very poor relationship between undead HP and their HD. Things like the archers with mega uber HP still have somewhat normal HD. Turning is useful and can be effective in lots of Necropolis quests and many House J quests.

[twix]

My lvl 16 cleric has a 28 cha and max turning feats and items and such and i have come to the conclusion that turning sucks.

[Rendigar]

I just created a cleric on Thelanis (currently lvl 3) with an 18 charisma and improved turning and "cannot" turn a lvl 2 skeleton archer in cerulean hills

I would love to see turning scaled somewhat to be more meaningful and effective.

[Aesop]

Yeah they could stand to buff turning up a little...

Maybe putting in a Cleric PrE of Radiant Servant would be nice

or something like that

the problem with Radiant Servant is that it is just about the most powerful Clerical PrC and could end up being the only one taken ...

I mean at the end of the PrC you can pop undead that you can turn (ie rekill them dead on a successful turn regardless of HD)
Auto Max and Empower healing spells ... i mean that's just pretty darn aweful


Maybe a toned down version would be

Radiant Servant I
Prereq: Feat: Extra Turning, Enhancements: Extra turning 1 Improved Turning 1, Heal 2

+1 Extra Turning, +2 Turning Level, +10% Healing Damage

Radiant Servant II
Prereq: Enhancements: Extra turning 2 Improved Turning 2, Heal 3, Radiant Servant I

+1 Extra Turning, +2 Turning Level, +5% Healing Damage

Radiant Servant III
Prereq: Enhancements: Extra turning 3 Improved Turning 3, Heal 3, Radiant Servant II

+1 Extra Turning, +2 Turning Level, +5% Healing Damage

I know its not too creative but it could make a Turning Cleric a bit happier


Also a lovely feat to put in would be Disciple of the Sun

This Feat costs two Turns to use but it pops undead that you successfully turn ... regarless of Hit Dice


Aesop

[Zenako]

My lvl 16 cleric has a 28 cha and max turning feats and items and such and i have come to the conclusion that turning sucks.

How so? The same way AC sucks? or Ranged attacks suck? or any number of things "suck"?

Turning works just as the rules say it should. You can destroy lesser undead with ease and consistently turn level challenge undead. For it to not "suck" what would you have it do? Be an auto win button vs undead? Its not that way in PnP D&D, and its not that way in DDO.

It does have a radius of effect so undead beyond that ignore you. I usually "round them up" first before turning to get the max I can in each burst.

[Impaqt]

I was Destroying Undead in Cerulean Hills at level 2 WIth a 14 CHR.....

Heres a Guide I posted just a little whiel ago
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...hlight=Turning

My 14 Base CHR Cleric(Hes eaten a +3 CHR Tome as well) Fears The Skeletal Archers in Ghosts of Perdition.. and THats actually a LOT more useful than Destroying them since a fear archer isnt plunkin folks while they are trying to beat down the doomsphere.

If your not turning L1-6 Mobs easily your doing somethign very wrong. Once you get out of delaras, you have to work on it a little, but it can be very effective still.

[mgoldb2]

The maximum HD a 16 cleric can turn is 29 yeah? (Seek eternal rest, sacred, Improved turning III, 16th Level, Favourable roll on turning table: 4+2+3+16+4=29). Is this right?

The most HD total a cleric can turn is about 38... (LVL+2d6+Charisma mod:16+12+10). This is assuming a massive investment into charisma and not very likely... i don’t think.

I believe you can get higher

Helm (tattered tap turn in) - Seraphim (hollowed affect) - max hd +2
Shield (abbot raid turn in) - Aegis Flame (silver flame affect) - total hd +6 (have to beat abbot raid to get so not realistic at this time but possible)
Gloves (reaver raid) - Gauntlets of Eternity (eternal fate affect) - +2 too turn level, +2 max hd, +4 too turn roll

Not sure if they all stack.

[UnderwearModel]

I just give the DVs to the Sorcs/Wizards and go back to healing.

Since my first character was/is a cleric I tried to turn. After a while, I learned that running elite and turning undead did not mix.

That, and being told by other players that Turn Undead was useless on Elite.

Maybe the idea was to allow turn undead to function fairly well on normal, but on elite force the players to make a different decision, come up with a different strategy.

Now the strategy has evolved into, forget turning undead just DV the sorc/wizzies.

Or else, maybe the coders just did not understand Turn Undead and really do not care about it.

[Impaqt]

I just give the DVs to the Sorcs/Wizards and go back to healing.

Since my first character was/is a cleric I tried to turn. After a while, I learned that running elite and turning undead did not mix.

That, and being told by other players that Turn Undead was useless on Elite.

Maybe the idea was to allow turn undead to function fairly well on normal, but on elite force the players to make a different decision, come up with a different strategy.

Now the strategy has evolved into, forget turning undead just DV the sorc/wizzies.

Or else, maybe the coders just did not understand Turn Undead and really do not care about it.

Or Maybe you... like the majority of other players, simply believed what you were told about turning on Elite and never invested any time and effort into it.

it also has to do with most players runnign content that is WAY over their level.

[twix]

Like i said my clerics at a 28 cha improved turning feats and enhancements, taps helm, gloves from reaver and the spell for turning undead.The only thing ive destroyed so far at high level are undead rats.Scaring undead is easy but who wants to chase after something? Turning sucks...

[Impaqt]

Like i said my clerics at a 28 cha improved turning feats and enhancements, taps helm, gloves from reaver and the spell for turning undead.The only thing ive destroyed so far at high level are undead rats.Scaring undead is easy but who wants to chase after something? Turning sucks...

Who says you have to chase after em? A Feared undead is no longer a threat. If you choose to chase after em thats you own decision.

[transtemporal]

OP: I made a turning-specced cleric as an experiment (currently lvl 11) and so far, I've found her to be very successful. My goal was to create a cleric that could destroy (preferably) or cower undead in any level appropriate quest.

At low levels, she definitely owned undead quests. She'd just walk into the middle of a bunch of undead and destroy them all. The higher she gets, the less this happens although she still routinely cowers 85% of the undead around her. Either way, its pretty much an "easy" button for undead quests.

This is pretty important as most people think if you can't destroy them, its not worth it because you're not "pwning" them. It does however, make the quest much easier, which for me is more important than my personal kill count.

By contrast, my healer of the same level is no where near as good, even with sacred and seek eternal rest. He can still turn a few things here and there but not enough for it to shine.

[Zenako]

OP: I made a turning-specced cleric as an experiment (currently lvl 11) and so far, I've found her to be very successful. My goal was to create a cleric that could destroy (preferably) or cower undead in any level appropriate quest.

At low levels, she definitely owned undead quests. She'd just walk into the middle of a bunch of undead and destroy them all. The higher she gets, the less this happens although she still routinely cowers 85% of the undead around her. Either way, its pretty much an "easy" button for undead quests.

This is pretty important as most people think if you can't destroy them, its not worth it because you're not "pwning" them. It does however, make the quest much easier, which for me is more important than my personal kill count.

By contrast, my healer of the same level is no where near as good, even with sacred and seek eternal rest. He can still turn a few things here and there but not enough for it to shine.

BINGO... we have a winner....

A turned undead is a helpless undead and can be ignored or killed at leisure.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

My lvl 16 cleric has a 28 cha and max turning feats and items and such and i have come to the conclusion that turning sucks.

Why do you have this opinion?
My Clr15 with Cha 26 (I think) and max turning feats/enhancements loves turning!

Only 2 Problems. Elite jacks HD way up!
And it seems to take about 3 rounds before the undead realises it was cowered. (Ive been lightning bolted to death in the Orchard only to watch arcanes run from my ghost. )

Other problem is when the undead actually has someplace to run to.....he either runs to the end of his leash and pops back (uncowered) or runs through a wall and you have to wait for him to come back to advance the quest.

(Worst thing is DDO is not having cowered spectres or charmed creatures count as defeated to open a gate somewhere....stupid, stupid stupid!)

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Like i said my clerics at a 28 cha improved turning feats and enhancements, taps helm, gloves from reaver and the spell for turning undead.The only thing ive destroyed so far at high level are undead rats.Scaring undead is easy but who wants to chase after something? Turning sucks...

Ah!
I guess I should've read farther.

Outside, it is almost better to not turn. Even if you choose not to chase, they run until they snap back....very annoying.

And for some reason that nakes guy you are supposed to defend in the Orchard also runs......until he runs to far and sometimes cannot be completed because of it.

Then there are the other players..
The brbs that want to kill everything and don't have the self-disipline not to chase it forever.....and blame you.
The Sor who thinks he owns your DVs......etc.

All my chars of every class would have a lot more fun if I didn't have to play the way other players want me to......sad.