And so the lie of "Pally Love MOD" is complete.........

[Borror0]

Well feel free to report me

/reported

[axebender]

/reported

you see the consiracy continues..our church is crumbling from within

[Borror0]

you see the consiracy continues..our church is crumbling from within

In fact! I will report you all, until I am the last one standing.

EDIT: That sounds like Pokémon: "Gotta report 'em all!" Okay, I shut up.

[moorewr]

Direct response!

I like the idea of cribbing from the Knight and Marshall PrCs, makes sense and El has indicated they are headed that way.. More spells from the compendium et al would be good to keep people in-class. I am not an expert on the PrCs you mention, but thanks for your summaries. Can you detail what don't you like about Hunter of the Dead? Would it not translate well in MMO world?

More uncontroversial general observations (which will therefore be attacked?):
They seem to like doing prestige classes as enhancement lines, so these will probably arrive in some form someday - although almost none of the wonderful suggestions in the PrC/PrE thread have come to pass yet... They have been very quiet on the Domain front, so I would be surprised to see much come from that provenance. Pity.

I really hope they go back and do real Prestige Classes after we hit level 20 - it will be a reason to keep rolling characters up if you can do a real PrC. There's no way to fake a Mystic Theurge. There may be some nasty PrE/PrC synergies then, but here we are. Fundamentally that's the only place (real PrEs) to take a melee in PnP other than multi-classing. As many have said Paladins are front-loaded. Fighters have more feats, but in paper and on-line AC and muscle-powered damage really fade compared to spell-power at high levels. A PnP barbarian is even less attractive vis a vis a high-level caster.

Further thoughts (though few people seem to respond to my posts directly):
-Knight of the Chalice would be a very solid enhancement line to the paladin class, particularly for late game content (where they are hurting the most), so long as it reflects more than one of the Knight's abilities--just the damage, or just the auras will likely not have much impact.

-Defender of Sealtiel is probably the PrC mentioned that I would be most excited about, as I like playing a defensive thank, and this class offers a lot that could work in the game: the defensive stance, some of the spell-like abilities, especially Shield Other--something actually UNIQUE paladins could have--would help in both defining a role for the paladin and enabling them to fulfill that role. I will say, however, that the defensive stance ability really CANNOT maintain its 'no movement' text, as, even in PnP it makes the ability very difficult to use, and in DDO, it would simply be yet another useless enhancement.

-Purple Dragon Knight is just slapping bard abilities onto a paladin. While in-theme, bards already have these, and are likely going to be much better at them. This does little to either define a paladin, or give them a real boost, though it does play well with the 'enhance others' theme of the class, I'd much prefer plundering of the Marshal.

-The Hunter of the Dead PrC is not something I'd look forward to. Sure, there are tons of undead, but I've never been too thrilled with the abilities it gets, and the few decent ones wouldn't translate well to DDO.

-In addition to the normal Divine feats, I also urge that you have a look at the Domain feats in the Complete Champion; they are essentially Divine feats that get a single use without using turn undead, and that often require multiple turns to reuse. My personal picks for inclusion would be:
--Destruction Devotion: similar to a destruction weapon
--Good Devotion: like Angelskin, but for your whole party and for a longer duration, though it starts lower and lvls slowly
--Law Devotion: get a bonus on attack rolls or AC for 1 min., may change the selection each round, and the bonus scales up
--Protection Devoition: AC bonus to yourself and all allies within 30 ft. for 1 min., bonus scales up with level
--Sun Devotion: weapon glows with true sunlight (giving vampires penalties) and weapon deals extra 1 damage/lvl to undead for 1 min.
--War Devotion: penalty on defensive fighting reduced, and bonus increases

Or perhaps include the Awesome Smite feat as a series of enhancements?
--Prereq. Power Attack, Smite Evil I
Whenever you smite evil while PA is active, free trip attack against enemy (bonus = Cha?)
or
Whenever you smite evil while PA is active, ignore incorporeal miss chance?
or
Whenever you smite evil while PA is active, ignore DR = 2x Cha?

An undead hunter would be very cool, in flavor, and possibly a rule option, but not the Hunter of the Dead PrC. And please, no Purple Dragon Knight.

Maybe look at the Knight class from the PHB II? It has a lot in common both flavor- and ability-wise with both the paladin and marshal. Perhaps steal some stuff from there?

[Borror0]

There's no way to fake a Mystic Theurge.

Yes:

-Post a lot.
-Call out Tek0mage, Angelus_Dead and company.
-Post quicker than Eladrin.
-Make smartass comments.

With that said, anyone saw him lately?

[moorewr]

hahaha!

I'm still spooked by the whole "Fake Aspenor" scandal.

Yes:

-Post a lot.
-Call out Tek0mage, Angelus_Dead and company.
-Post quicker than Eladrin.
-Make smartass comments.

With that said, anyone saw him lately?

[Serpent]

Yes:

-Post a lot.
-Call out Tek0mage, Angelus_Dead and company.
-Post quicker than Eladrin.
-Make smartass comments.

With that said, anyone saw him lately?

You forgot
-Report Gpk
-Make mistakes

[axebender]

You forgot
-Report Gpk
-Make mistakes

i tell u ...anyone comming in giving our pally mode love forums a hard time are just getting free game play from the dev's to do so

[Borror0]

You forgot
-Report Gpk
-Make mistakes

Huh?

[sephiroth1084]

Thanks for replying. =)

Hunter of the Dead gets:
-Detect Undead, and since we never got detect evil, I presume this would not be added either. Besides, most of us already know when it's coming up anyway.
-Smite undead, which is essentially smite evil, but uses Wis modifier rather than Cha, so no point at all in DDO (this PrC is more designed for clerics by the way).
-Wis bonus on saves vs. undead spells and abilities. Not very useful for most DnD paladins.
-An ability that prevents undead from ever rising again if the Hunter kills them. That doesn't really have much impact on DDO at all.
-Extra Turning as a free bonus feat. No explanation necessary.
-Almost identical ability to Divine Light. Again, no explanation necessary.
-Immunity to abilities that cause negative levels. THIS would be amazing, and would make paladins all but immune to beholders. While I really like this ability, it probably would feel like more of an 'anti-beholder' enhancement than anything else, and I doubt the devs would ever put it in. For it to, flavor-wise, be considered undead-related, it'd likely require many prereqs. (it is the cap ability for the prestige class), or would likely be changed in some dramatic fashion, since, in my experience, undead don't drain levels all that much.

The core CONCEPTS of the prestige class, which I think could be the basis for an enhancement line are:
-extra damage vs. undead (in a more meaningful fashion)
-save bonuses vs. undead spells and abilities
-immunity(ies) to some common undead traits, whether just from an undead source or all the time (doing this, however, would almost assuredly make paladins better against some other sort of monster or monsters--not necessarily a bad thing, but an issue all the same)
-possibly something like paladins gaining the Disruption weapon ability innately, where all their attacks have a chance to destroy undead outright, or make it /rest uses? I dunno.

In PnP, even when undead were going to be the main focus of the campaign (such as a Ravenloft Adventure), I never felt compelled to take this PrC.

[moorewr]

Yes, I can see that would be more attractive to clerics, and even then it would be more for flavor (except for the Negative Level Immunity, of course). Your suggestions are of course pretty powerful - in a PnP campaign you'd be unbalanced, but it sounds about right for DDO.

Thanks for replying. =)

Hunter of the Dead gets:
-Detect Undead, and since we never got detect evil, I presume this would not be added either. Besides, most of us already know when it's coming up anyway.
-Smite undead, which is essentially smite evil, but uses Wis modifier rather than Cha, so no point at all in DDO (this PrC is more designed for clerics by the way).
-Wis bonus on saves vs. undead spells and abilities. Not very useful for most DnD paladins.
-An ability that prevents undead from ever rising again if the Hunter kills them. That doesn't really have much impact on DDO at all.
-Extra Turning as a free bonus feat. No explanation necessary.
-Almost identical ability to Divine Light. Again, no explanation necessary.
-Immunity to abilities that cause negative levels. THIS would be amazing, and would make paladins all but immune to beholders. While I really like this ability, it probably would feel like more of an 'anti-beholder' enhancement than anything else, and I doubt the devs would ever put it in. For it to, flavor-wise, be considered undead-related, it'd likely require many prereqs. (it is the cap ability for the prestige class), or would likely be changed in some dramatic fashion, since, in my experience, undead don't drain levels all that much.

The core CONCEPTS of the prestige class, which I think could be the basis for an enhancement line are:
-extra damage vs. undead (in a more meaningful fashion)
-save bonuses vs. undead spells and abilities
-immunity(ies) to some common undead traits, whether just from an undead source or all the time (doing this, however, would almost assuredly make paladins better against some other sort of monster or monsters--not necessarily a bad thing, but an issue all the same)
-possibly something like paladins gaining the Disruption weapon ability innately, where all their attacks have a chance to destroy undead outright, or make it /rest uses? I dunno.

In PnP, even when undead were going to be the main focus of the campaign (such as a Ravenloft Adventure), I never felt compelled to take this PrC.

[sephiroth1084]

I wasn't saying that ALL of those should be part of the DDO enhancement/PrC, but just that, those represent the philosophy of the existing PrC, and that they could be translated to DDO and paladin-relevant abilities.

[JohnWarlock]

Adding some ideas see what people think of them.

I've played NWN and NWN2 and I must admit that Divine Might, Divine Shield sound like great feats to have on a Pally

Divine Might adds your Charisma Mod to your Damage for X amount of time defined by your Charisma Mod.
Divine Armor would do the same to AC
Divine Damage add your Wisdom Mod to your Weapon Damage
Divine Shield add your Charisma Mod to your Pally level = Spell Resistance

or turn all these Divine abilities into a Paladin Divine Feat for Paladins lvl 14+ and you have to use your Turn Undead Ability to activate them... Paladins get so many of them and there is no real point to it.

They can be used like Enhancements or Feats to take.

or how about this:

Lvl 16 Paladin Gains aura of Righteousness... every weapon the Pally wields is treated like a righteous weapon with a +2 to hit evil monsters

Lvl 18 or 20 Paladin gains aura of Pure Good... Weapons a Pally wields is treated as having a pure good property and does an extra 1d6 damage.

Also the damage characters get from monsters is so ridiculous that 4 Lay on Hands really mean nothing, why not make them reset like smites? 1 every 60 seconds or all of them every 3 minutes. That way Paladins don't have to go around saving them like it was the last drop of water in the desert.

Or make the AC aura give twice the AC to paladins once they hit lvl 16.... that means all 4 Bulwarks would give everyone +4 AC but the Pally gets +8 AC.

For all flamers out there, I'm not saying a Paladin SHOULD get everything I mentioned... I'm just saying that these are ideas that can be implemented to balance them out more.

Most tend to agree that Barbarians are the DPS power houses, it's cool... I agree that a 16 Barb should be a damage powerhouse, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying a 16 barb is all he should do or be specifically built for that, but when they achieve 40+ STR, they should be doing it. We also can agree that Rangers have savage DPS versus their favored enemies, which stands at 4 of them right now, 5 at lvl 20. A fighter has decent STR, Min/Max Str is 32 with a +1 tome, 34 with a +3 tome, not shabby at all, but their strength lies in the fact that they can make those 30+ Str points and trip, imp trip, sunder, imp sunder, cleave, greater cleave, whirlwind, and hit so many more monsters directly... that's their ability, straight damage to various monsters through all the feats they get. So if a paladin is supposed to be a support defensive fighter, shouldn't they get more love in that department?

I had a guild mate tell me why make a paladin when you can make a battle cleric, that buffs better and does better damage? and can heal better? I would never agree with him, but he has a point.

Basically a battle cleric gets almost all the spells a paladin gets except for Holy Sword, Angel Skin and I might be missing a spell or two, but a Cleric gets Protections, Divine Favor, Divine Strength (makes the BAB same as a pally), and gets Heal. Add Quicken Spell to that Heal, and it's what 20 LoHs at least? They get Better healing, they get damaging light spells, which incedently have no saves or resistances to them, debuffs, and except for Combat Expertise, which sucks on a Paladin as well since he wouldn't be able to cast spells anyways. There is really not much point to it.

Combat Expertise works wonders with a fighter, he doesn't have to worry at all about casting any spells? That's another point right there. Can't a Paladin get a Divine Combat Expertise at higher Levels? One that you can turn on and off and would still let you cast spells? or is that too overpowering? OMG a Paladin with -5 to hit / +5 AC that can Divine Favor himself!!!! Everyone RUN! That's it Nerf it.

I mean seriously, give a barbarian the Madstone Shield, and a Khopesh and he can have as high an AC fully raged, as a paladin can. Not to mention a Fighter or Dwarven Fighter they have higher AC from their Dex Bonus. Seriously... is it me or have the Gods Divinely messed up the Paladins? Maybe it's Divinely Forgotten... that should be the new description instead of a Divine Fighter, Paladins the class that is Divinely Forgotten.

Before someone else starts flaming me. Look at this numbers I've come across with Friends. (Warning: From Memory Game is down)

A barbarian can fully rage at lvl 16 with all his rages and extensions to about 15-18 minutes I believe before hitting a shrine.
Rangers should pick either the ranged feats or the two weapon feats.
Fighters can take Stunning Blow, Trip, Imp Trip, Cleave, Greater Cleave, Whirlwind, Sunder, Imp Sunder and use them infinite amount of times as long as the timer has reset.

Paladins get what a max of 12 smites, that go off and if they don't hit your enemy cause he moves it is lost. A way to fix and I agree with that make it so that it last X amount of seconds 5 seconds or something, or worse programming scenario is only used up if it actually hits a creature, weather it affects it or not, let it go, no worries... but make sure it goes off only if it hits, or with a timer.

Turn undead is useless for Turning, lets face it. If Clerics can't turn, we sure don't have a chance to turn anything away. Unless you want to go into a lvl 4 quest with a lvl 14 Pally and still monsters don't die. They just run away. Basically turned undead is a dead skill, and although Divine Light or whatever the skill Paladins get that does damage to undead instead of trying to turn them is a neat enhancement really and honestly, how many Paladins out there actually do use it?

Lay on Hands WAS useful until the Heal Spell came out, my lvl 16 Pally with a 28 Charisma does approximately 234 HPs of Healing, with an 18 Con he has 370 HPs, which yes to all you out there it is Gimped... but hey why have more HPs than what I can actually heal myself for? A barb with 400+ Hps needs 2 of them to fill up, and unless a paladin is fully spec'd to heal instead of fight, there is no way he can even attempt to go around as a support healer. What I want to know is at lvl 20 when my character has 400+ HP and is only healing for 270 how will that be supportive when a barbarian fully raged will have 700+ HPs if not 800-900 Hps? All my LoH to heal one?

On the matters of AC, what we missed out on, is something more important. For a Paladin to fully gain all the AC possible, you need combat expertise and that requires 13 Int, isn't that a bit unfair to a class that is already so spread out in it's attributes? and as I stated earlier casting a spell cancels it.

Lets not even go into the Paladins Get Bulwark of good IV. that's +4 to AC, sure I get it and so will everyone else around me, you don't see my Str and Con going up when a barbarian Rages. No, I'm not asking for that. I'm just simply stating that some things can be looked at and can be changed, or properly balanced or enhanced to make it look more balanced XD.

If Paladins are supposed to be the "tanks" and "self-healing" shouldn't their abilities match or be more in proportion to the game?

I loved those enhancements they added and healing 1,000 HPs and removing almost every possible ailment in a companion or yourself is superb. but a 10 min Timer? If i use it once, by the time I remember to use it again the quest is over. Only worthwhile raid useable is the Shroud. If I time it right I can even use it 2 or 3 times, well if people do manage to need a huge healing and by grace of divine intervention the clerics are out of mana and heal scrolls.

Well those are my couple of cents of thoughts and ideas.... let me prepare myself for all the incoming fire.

*Casts Resist Fire*
*Tries to cast Protection From Fire* oh **** that's right Paladin's don't get that spells :/

[The_Mighty_Cube]

insult laden discussions are tasty food for the cube.