And so the lie of "Pally Love MOD" is complete.........

[EinarMal]

I have already shown that a level 16 human paladin with maxed out strength does less 1H damage than a level 16 human fighter with maxed strength and Weapon Foci + Weapon Specialization Feats. If the developers add the Weapon Mastery and Weapon Supremacy feats then Paladins will fall by the way side, unless we are given the proper spells to compensate for the disparity. Paladins have nothing that even compares to fighter melee haste, and don't even get me started on Barbarian Critical Rage. I for one don't want to play a fighter or barbarian, and I believe my class should get the attention it needs and deserves. If you like fighters and barbarians that's fine go advocate for them, but don't beat down paladins any further into the ground.

Barbarian vs Fighter vs Paladin

Paladins should do less DPS than Fighters they get better saves and spells. Seriously if you don't think self healing, wand usage, better saves, and pally auras are beneficial compared to a small disadvantage in DPS then build a fighter, it is called trade offs.

What you are wanting is irrational, you cannot have better DPS than a Fighter and still be balanced given the other things Paladins can do. It just doesn't make any sense.

[EinarMal]

The need for "paladin love" in DDO is to give players a good reason to continue taking paladin levels after 12. After all, the class offers some good features at low and medium levels- the problem is that from a standpoint of mechanical effectiveness, taking further paladin cannot be justified.

Why? There is very little reason to stay pure in PnP besides flavor, fighters run out of feats to take, Rangers get very little between 15 to 20, Rogues gain sneak damage but that also becomes relatively less and less of a reason to stay pure. There are a lot of classes like that, in fact other than pure casters all other types tend to multi-class into other classes or prestige classes.

What do you do in PnP, you multi-class into a prestige class (which means you are no longer a pure paladin) or you take another core class, or for flavor you stay pure and are not a min/max build.

DDO is based on 3.5, what you are asking for is for them to invent new things past level 15 so that pure paladins are more powerful than they are in PnP?

I prefer they stick with the rules that the game is based on whenever possible. I am fine with them adding spells that are appropriately powered (btw Rangers and Paladins have a huge boost in this area compared to PnP already). I am also fine with them adding enhancement PrC type things, but anything past requiring level 15 I am not that much of a fan of.

The whole pure must be as good or better argument to me is quite weak.

[creithne]

I keep seeing the argument that in PnP every class but pure casters tend to multi-class into other classes or prestige classes...the problem is, in PnP, you know exactly what you're in for. Here, its a crapshoot. There is no clear map for progression because we don't know what levels 17-20 will bring, heck, we don't even have proper spells and feats for levels 15-16 yet. That, to me, is the issue, not whether or not classes SHOULD remain pure, but the fact that planning for multi-classing into other classes or PrC's is rather difficult given that we don't know what they are planning on implementing and what they are not.

[Coldin]

You know, I think I'm going to roll up a halfling paladin.

[EinarMal]

I keep seeing the argument that in PnP every class but pure casters tend to multi-class into other classes or prestige classes...the problem is, in PnP, you know exactly what you're in for. Here, its a crapshoot. There is no clear map for progression because we don't know what levels 17-20 will bring, heck, we don't even have proper spells and feats for levels 15-16 yet. That, to me, is the issue, not whether or not classes SHOULD remain pure, but the fact that planning for multi-classing into other classes or PrC's is rather difficult given that we don't know what they are planning on implementing and what they are not.

I understand that, and it would be great if they told us the long term goal, I am also fine with getting xp credit for scraping a character so you could auto level a new one or some other total re-spec system.

Welcome to MMO land where things always change, nothing is planned out forever, and everyone of every class is one nerf away from oblivion and sub-optimization.

This is an issue with dynamic online (and poorly planned IMO) online games. I really don't think they know what they are going to do long term, I think they plan out major features somewhat, but have a very poor overall vision of the game. I think as well this is why you don't see maps of classes to level 20, plans beyond that etc....

None of that though is Paladin specific. Pretty much every class except Wizard/Sorc/Cleric has the same dilemma. Should I take some other class or stay with one in case "something good" is added at high levels that I might miss.

My guess is, if they follow 3.5, that something great will never come for Paladins, Fighters, Rogues, Rangers, since that is true of PnP. My guess is that MC builds will be a little stronger for those classes. So, most people with take 10-15 levels of those classes and combine it with something else.

I mean look at Paladin 14/Fighter 6, now you have full divine favor, 4 extra feats, +2 to strength, and weapon spec. That is "better" than a Fighter 20 or a Paladin 20 would be given what we have in the game today. I just don't see what is "wrong" with that combination being better in terms of one area (DPS).

[Gunga]

Why? There is very little reason to stay pure in PnP besides flavor, fighters run out of feats to take, Rangers get very little between 15 to 20, Rogues gain sneak damage but that also becomes relatively less and less of a reason to stay pure. There are a lot of classes like that, in fact other than pure casters all other types tend to multi-class into other classes or prestige classes.

What do you do in PnP, you multi-class into a prestige class (which means you are no longer a pure paladin) or you take another core class, or for flavor you stay pure and are not a min/max build.

DDO is based on 3.5, what you are asking for is for them to invent new things past level 15 so that pure paladins are more powerful than they are in PnP?

I prefer they stick with the rules that the game is based on whenever possible. I am fine with them adding spells that are appropriately powered (btw Rangers and Paladins have a huge boost in this area compared to PnP already). I am also fine with them adding enhancement PrC type things, but anything past requiring level 15 I am not that much of a fan of.

The whole pure must be as good or better argument to me is quite weak.

/signed. I've been trying to say the same, albeit with less eloquence, for a long time. I do still think that gpk has a point with the pali spells. I don't think that the addition of the pali spells will out balance the class, but make it more enjoyable to play a pali to max level.

[Tallyn]

I keep seeing the argument that in PnP every class but pure casters tend to multi-class into other classes or prestige classes...the problem is, in PnP, you know exactly what you're in for. Here, its a crapshoot. There is no clear map for progression because we don't know what levels 17-20 will bring, heck, we don't even have proper spells and feats for levels 15-16 yet. That, to me, is the issue, not whether or not classes SHOULD remain pure, but the fact that planning for multi-classing into other classes or PrC's is rather difficult given that we don't know what they are planning on implementing and what they are not.

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with at least half this comment. You know at base what to expect for levels 17-20. Go look at the SRD:

http://www.d20srd.org/

Ok, now I half agree with you, because you don't know what Enhancements they are going to add, and not sure which spells they will choose to add to the game as well as feats later on.

[Alcides]

Why? There is very little reason to stay pure in PnP besides flavor, fighters run out of feats to take, Rangers get very little between 15 to 20, Rogues gain sneak damage but that also becomes relatively less and less of a reason to stay pure. There are a lot of classes like that, in fact other than pure casters all other types tend to multi-class into other classes or prestige classes.

What do you do in PnP, you multi-class into a prestige class (which means you are no longer a pure paladin) or you take another core class, or for flavor you stay pure and are not a min/max build.

DDO is based on 3.5, what you are asking for is for them to invent new things past level 15 so that pure paladins are more powerful than they are in PnP?

I prefer they stick with the rules that the game is based on whenever possible. I am fine with them adding spells that are appropriately powered (btw Rangers and Paladins have a huge boost in this area compared to PnP already). I am also fine with them adding enhancement PrC type things, but anything past requiring level 15 I am not that much of a fan of.

The whole pure must be as good or better argument to me is quite weak.

Alot of Paladins have been asking for things that exist in 3.5. For instance, the Blessed Aim, Silverbeard, Righteous Fury, Righteous Aura spells all exist in the Spell Compendium. Two of these spells give advantages to all party members, two of them strengthen a Paladin. These are not made up.

Not to mention the version of Ram's Might that was added to DDO functions way better than the Spell Compendium version.

Alot of Paladins also would like to see some Divine Feats where we use turn undead attempts to boost something(Divine Might, Divine Shield et al).

DDO needs to do more to cater to the people who like to run Pure Melee Classes regardless of class.

[Yaga_Nub]

DDO needs to do more to cater to the people who like to run Pure Melee Classes regardless of class.

I disagree. DDO doesn't need to or should it cater to anyone.

[EinarMal]

Alot of Paladins have been asking for things that exist in 3.5. For instance, the Blessed Aim, Silverbeard, Righteous Fury, Righteous Aura spells all exist in the Spell Compendium. Two of these spells give advantages to all party members, two of them strengthen a Paladin. These are not made up.

Not to mention the version of Ram's Might that was added to DDO functions way better than the Spell Compendium version.

Alot of Paladins also would like to see some Divine Feats where we use turn undead attempts to boost something(Divine Might, Divine Shield et al).

DDO needs to do more to cater to the people who like to run Pure Melee Classes regardless of class.

I looked and found none of those spells in the d20 SRD, are they from some other source book, not to say that they might add them (although one always has to consider whether to allow things). Just because some book included it doesn't mean it was well thought out. I mean every DM (Including Turbine) has to make the decision on whether a particular feat/spell/item etc... will be allowed.

The last statement you made is clearly your (and most of the other people advocating on this thread) opinion. I actually do not agree that DDO needs to do anything at all to cater to people who don't want to multi-class beyond what is already in 3.5.

[EinarMal]

DDO needs to do more to cater to the people who like to run Pure Melee Classes regardless of class.

In fact DDO already does this far beyond what PnP does with the enhancement system. A better system takes any kind of non-class related enhancement and ties it to feats and abilities rather than class. So only very specific things like Bard Song enhancement would require class levels.

Strength I - Adds +1 to strength
Requires - 3 AP spent and 18 base strength

Tempest I - Blah blah
Requires - X AP spent Dodge-Mobility-Spring Attack-TWF

Toughness I-5 extra hp from toughness
Requires-Toughness feat

That is a much more 3.5 oriented enhancement system. It would also address a lot of the imbalance that you are talking about with the Paladin class without having to change what the class is about.

[Alcides]

I looked and found none of those spells in the d20 SRD, are they from some other source book, not to say that they might add them (although one always has to consider whether to allow things). Just because some book included it doesn't mean it was well thought out. I mean every DM (Including Turbine) has to make the decision on whether a particular feat/spell/item etc... will be allowed.

The last statement you made is clearly your (and most of the other people advocating on this thread) opinion. I actually do not agree that DDO needs to do anything at all to cater to people who don't want to multi-class beyond what is already in 3.5.

They are all in the Spell Compendium book. The d20 SRD mainly has stuff from the Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master Guide and Monster Manual 1.

In my humble experience, most DMs will cave in given enough prodding, free lunches help too :P

[Lucian_Navarro]

Yes, they destroyed Pally's... think I'll just delete mine.

[Alcides]

In fact DDO already does this far beyond what PnP does with the enhancement system. A better system takes any kind of non-class related enhancement and ties it to feats and abilities rather than class. So only very specific things like Bard Song enhancement would require class levels.

Strength I - Adds +1 to strength
Requires - 3 AP spent and 18 base strength

Tempest I - Blah blah
Requires - X AP spent Dodge-Mobility-Spring Attack-TWF

Toughness I-5 extra hp from toughness
Requires-Toughness feat

That is a much more 3.5 oriented enhancement system. It would also address a lot of the imbalance that you are talking about with the Paladin class without having to change what the class is about.

Well I've just been advocating adding new Paladin spells. Balancing the enhancement system is a separate issue.

[Alcides]

I disagree. DDO doesn't need to or should it cater to anyone.

Try telling that to your management when no one plays your game and the company is going bankrupt. The purpose of an online MMO is to generate revenue. The revenue come from 2 sources 1. The initial game CD/DVD and 2. Monthly Subscriptions. If you have no more monthly subscribers then you have no revenue. I would assume that Turbine wants to keep it's revenue so they probably are going to have to cater to their players.

[Taerdra]

Many aspects of the enhancement system are that many are actually substitutes for feats or class features of PrCs in the first place. Take Barbarian for example: without any lose of feats or any original class features, the average Barb has Extra Rage (essentially a feat for free), Extend Rage (essentially a feat for free), and other features like Power Rage and Power Attack (essentially class features of Frenzied Berserker without the side effects). In PnP terms, most Barbs in this game are Frenzied Berserkers, not pure Barbs. The idea of the "pure" barb in this game is false. I can point out many other instances of same in other classes as well.

The issue is that the Paladin's versions of similar things are underpowered or mechanically bogus. The same can be said about rogues and fighters, but for different reasons. The Paladins in this game already are not "pure" by default. Talk about pure/impure just misses the point entirely. The main point is a) improve the enhancements; b) translate Smite to a real-time scenario like everything else in DDO has been; and c) add spells which is not a problem exclusively to Paladins -- totally separate issues from making a pure Pally valid to play which is already irrelevant via enhancements anyway.

[EinarMal]

Well I've just been advocating adding new Paladin spells. Balancing the enhancement system is a separate issue.

Well that is a tough one, if you remove the enhancement system then you are left to me with a pretty close approximation of PnP. If you took away all the rage enhancements, tempest, fighter's strength, etc., etc. I think there would be very few balance issues at all.

99% of this games problems have come out of the overpowered enhancement system (and item inflation).

Again I am fine with adding spells, for all classes the Bard list is pathetic and level 8 cleric spells are not so hot either.

Adding spells, even 4th level, would not seem to address many peoples complaints about pure Paladins. At some point those spells can be cast by anyone with 15 levels of Paladin (and I am not sure if all the spells you are adding are 4th level).

[Alcides]

Well that is a tough one, if you remove the enhancement system then you are left to me with a pretty close approximation of PnP. If you took away all the rage enhancements, tempest, fighter's strength, etc., etc. I think there would be very few balance issues at all.

99% of this games problems have come out of the overpowered enhancement system (and item inflation).

Again I am fine with adding spells, for all classes the Bard list is pathetic and level 8 cleric spells are not so hot either.

Adding spells, even 4th level, would not seem to address many peoples complaints about pure Paladins. At some point those spells can be cast by anyone with 15 levels of Paladin (and I am not sure if all the spells you are adding are 4th level).

Blessed Aim - Level 2 adds +2 morale? bonus to ranged attack rolls.
Righteous Fury - Level 3 Adds +4 Sacred Bonus to Strength, +5 Temporary hit points per caster level.
Silverbeard - Level 2 adds +2 sacred bonus to paladin's armor class.
Righteous Aura - Level 4 - I believe adds a +2 sacred bonus to saves and AC to all members of the party.

I don't have Spell Compendium in front of me but that is the gist of what they do. I think they did a good job with the Paladin Enhancement changes, but they short changed us on adding new spells. I'm sorry but Angelskin is not that great of a spell. The beef boils down to paladins losing +2 hit/+2 damage from the "Divine Favor nerf" and losing +1 AC/+1 Saves from the Paladin Aura. They're giving back the +1 AC, adding Righteous Fury gives back the +2 hit/+2 damage lost from the "Divine Favor nerf". Adding the additional +1 Saves to the save Aura at a higher level would be fine by me.

[sigtrent]

I don't have Spell Compendium in front of me but that is the gist of what they do. I think they did a good job with the Paladin Enhancement changes, but they short changed us on adding new spells. I'm sorry but Angelskin is not that great of a spell.

This is one of the most reasonable statement I've heard in this thread so far.

[sigtrent]

Honestly what with all the recent preachy "well you should have multiclassed" posts, do you guys have access to a time machine I haven't heard of? Was the time machine mentioned in the WDA and I missed it? If so please go forward in time then come back and post the complete DDO class roadmap for us, it would prove very helpful..

Look at all the D&D matterials out there. Show me where paladins get awesome offensive bonuses. It is a defensive martial class. Barbarians are clearly DPs oriented. Fighters have the tools to go DPS if they want to focus on that but can't match barbarians. Rangers can get TWF feats without investing in dex and thus make good DPS characters. Paladins get a but load of defensive and healing oriented abbilities and exactly one offensive power that only works on evil monsters and only a limited number of times per day.

What made you thing they would be DPS power houses? Why did you roll one if DPS is what you were looking for?

P.S. Incidentally, not nerfing a class when you promised to fix it is still a nerf.

You can call it whatever you like but nothing specific was promised. They made changes to paladadin. You don't like them. It is not a nerf by any normal definition of the word.