And so the lie of "Pally Love MOD" is complete.........

[sigtrent]

The increased damage from Exhaulted Smite does not make up for the reduction in the number of Extra Smites over end fight durations (which is where you would think this helps the most)

If you take Exhaulted smite you get the same number of smites. Each exaulted smite adds an additional smite use according to the devs posts.

[Angelus_dead]

Tell me how Turbine is going to fix a design that's been in place for a looooooong time in DnD.

It's already been explained in great detail. I have no reason to repeat it for your convenience.

Why SHOULD they fix it if we keep saying that we want them to stay true to DnD?

We don't say that.

[Yaga_Nub]

We don't say that.

YOU might not say that but the majority of people do.

[llevenbaxx]

Prestige classes weren't a fix to Paladins. Prestige classes are there to expand the game not FIX a core class.

No ****... Its the closest thing to a "fix" that exists in PnP though. You could take you pally in different directions, offense/defense/misc, with out breaking the golden rule. I think of them as more an expansion on the pally class. Nothing else was done to make pally characters more playable to my knowledge... God knows they are dry as hell at the later levels...

[stockwizard5]

If you take Exhaulted smite you get the same number of smites. Each exaulted smite adds an additional smite use according to the devs posts.

Paladin Exalted Smite I:
Cost: 1 Action Point
Prereqs: Level 6 Paladin, Paladin Extra Smiting II, 19 Action Points Spent
Benefit: Using this attack, you call on the paladin's ability to strike down evil creatures, gaining twice your Charisma bonus to your attack roll, a damage bonus based on your paladin level, and +1 to your weapon's critical damage multiplier. (5 second cool-down, uses smites per day, replaces Smite Evil.)

Not sure I have seen that post ...

[sigtrent]

No. You are the one who is wrong, and in fact you are so obviously wrong that it isn't worth replying.

Hmmmm....

Splash paladin 3 with aura 1 (current expenditure on aura 4, new expenditure 2, savings = 2)
Paladin 16 with aura 3 (current expenditure 24, new expenditure 12, savings = 12)

Explain how that is better for the splash paladin!

[sigtrent]

Not sure I have seen that post ...

I looked for it... I could be wrong and may have misread the post reguarding the cooldown timer they added. Since I can prove it i'll let that go.

[Angelus_dead]

Explain how that is better for the splash paladin!

It's already been explained several times in this thread. If you want to know, you can go back and read it.

[Frodo_Lives]

All I know is that the Paladin class gain less from levels 12 - 16 than any other class in the game.

Every other class in the game get class abilities or high level enhancements that significantly improve their abilities. Heck the fighter who usually are thought of as getting little at high end at least get 3 extra feats which is more benificial than what the paladin gets.

[Tallyn]

It's already been explained several times in this thread. If you want to know, you can go back and read it.

Nice answer.

Perhaps you could at least provide a link to the previous post you are referring to as your argument ending evidence? So far, I'm siding with sigtrent on this one.

[Angelus_dead]

Perhaps you could at least provide a link to the previous post you are referring to as your argument ending evidence? So far, I'm siding with sigtrent on this one.

These posts are not hard to find. Here's a good one.

[artvan_delet]

More Bad News ...

I was just running the numbers for a typical 60s End-Fight for My Capped Pally assuming "perfect" use of smites:

Under the Old System (No Smiting) DPS = 35.8
Under the Old system (Extra Smite III) DPS = 49.6
Under the New System (Extra Smite III, Exhaulted Smite III) DPS = 49.4

The increased damage from Exhaulted Smite does not make up for the reduction in the number of Extra Smites over end fight durations (which is where you would think this helps the most)

I also looked at four rounds against the Fiend Normal (Smite Regeneration = 90s):

Under the old system (No Smiting) DPS = 30.7
Under the old system (Extra Smite III) DPS = 33.5
Under the new system (Extra Smnite III, Exhaulted Smite III) DPS = 36.7

I keep looking for reasons to keep my mule ... err capped Pally ... but the more I look - the more sad Panda I become

Your calculations also require you to spend 15 AP to get exhalted smite 3. Gonna hurt to spend 15 APs for that.

[Tallyn]

These posts are not hard to find. Here's a good one.

So you're saying this,

Yes - they are MUCH WORSE OFF ...

The gap between a Multi Pally 11/5 or 3/13 and a Pure Pally 16 is bigger AFTER Mod 7. That is the things you are talking about benefit the multi-class more than pure-class increasing (rather than decreasing) the gap. Pure Pally is now more gimped (in comparison) than before.

Said another way -

1. Currently Multi-Class Pally builds are WAY better than Pure Class = The Problem
2. Mod7 Improves Pure Pally builds but improves Multi Pally builds even more = Makes Problem Worse

I guess I have trouble understanding the understanding gap between the players and the devs on this one

You really need to look at what Multi-Pally builds are getting (that is everything for Pally levels 1 to 11) and compare to everything that Pure-Pally builds are getting in addition (that is everthing for Pally levels 12-16) to really see the problem.

Refutes this?

Hmmmm....

Splash paladin 3 with aura 1 (current expenditure on aura 4, new expenditure 2, savings = 2)
Paladin 16 with aura 3 (current expenditure 24, new expenditure 12, savings = 12)

Explain how that is better for the splash paladin!

I don't see it. So far logic dictates that sigtrent is right.

HOWEVER, I am willing to concede that there isn't much to be gained by level past 12 as a Paladin. This is a failing of Dungeons and Dragons in general, not necessarily specific to DDO in this case. As Yaga Nub had stated earlier, the desire to add to the Paladin class beyond level 12 goes against the purists, in a way, which want to stay as true to pen and paper as possible. (I am not one of those purists) But to say that there is absolutely no benefit to continuing to level Paladin is false. Spells last longer, spellcasting level is considered higher, Lay on hands does more, Smite Evil does more. I will agree with you, it is not all that exciting, and probably underpowered. But currently, that is the way it works. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/paladin.htm) Fighters have similar issues currently as well.

Also, it should be noted that there are NO enhancements for ANY class for levels 15 and 16. It looks like Paladins will be the first to receive an enhancement for the new levels. So there is another example, albeit a small one, that there is a benefit to be gained to leveling up Paladins.

Since the majority of your arguments are not that the Paladin class is underpowered, but that there is no reason to level up beyond level 12 as a Paladin, what do you think would help? (If you don't want to type it out, just post up a link to a previous post to what would specifically help pure Paladins beyond level 12)

[Josh]

YOU might not say that but the majority of people do.

No, what most people are saying is that deviation from the core rules should be avoided as a default stance. When deviations are justified, no issue. There have been examples stated ad nauseum here on the forums as to what are "necessary" deviations and what are "unnecessary" deviations. Clearly, the paladin class could use some "useful" deviations. One that comes to mind would something as simple as increasing the max to divine favor back to +5, capping at lvl 15 or so. The devs claim that WoTC forced them to change it back to bring it "more in line with PnP", but I don't buy that for one second, cause I can't EVER se WoTC giving approval for barb crit rage...

This would be a simple change to make, and would add a lot to paladins. This is an example of a justified change to the rules I believe. Food for thought.

[sigtrent]

These posts are not hard to find. Here's a good one.

Easy to find, yes... but it compleately fails to address my direct point.

[gpk]

Tell me how Turbine is going to fix a design that's been in place for a looooooong time in DnD. Why SHOULD they fix it if we keep saying that we want them to stay true to DnD?

Noone is saying DDO should stay true to pnp dnd and even if we did, that ship has LONG sailed.
It's nice to stay true to pnp where it makes SENSE, deviate where it makes SENSE.
By the same token mistakes in PnP should NOT be repeated and more than one already has.

[sigtrent]

I think DDO should stay true to the spirit of PnP, but not nessisarily the letter of the rules as it is simply a different kind of game.

Lots of things in DDO are different. Most are pretty good, some are not.

[gpk]

Hmmmm....

Splash paladin 3 with aura 1 (current expenditure on aura 4, new expenditure 2, savings = 2)
Paladin 16 with aura 3 (current expenditure 24, new expenditure 12, savings = 12)

Explain how that is better for the splash paladin!

The problem is your only looking at a few level "splash".
If you look at Pal 10to even 14 vs a pure 16 the multiclass benefits more from AP reduction, there are more good litte enhancements now made available by the non-pally (fighter and or rogue) levels.

All I can see for my pure level 16 pally is Bulwark of Good 4, that's it.

Put in a class and skill respec system, even in a limited form, and the problem mostly fixes itself in a cheap cheesy kinda way.

[Angelus_dead]

Put in a class and skill respec system, even in a limited form, and the problem mostly fixes itself in a cheap cheesy kinda way.

Well, a class respec doesn't fix the problem, but it does reduce the importance. If DDO allowed class respec (even if it is very slow, such as requiring you to re-earn all the XP for the changed levels) then players could build effective pal14/X2/Y2 builds today, without locking themselves out of a a future as a pal18 or pal20.

The problem now is that players face a dilemma:
1. Give up on continuing to be a paladin and switch to some mix of fighter, rogue, or ranger.
2. Stay a paladin in the hope that the developers eventually give the class something good at high level, although you're self-nerfing in the meantime.

The problem will become bigger when the next level cap increase arrives. Before that happens, it is important that the devs clarify if the upper levels of paladin will ever become worthwhile.

[Premier]

I tried my best to read through all 7 pages of this thread. I'll admit that I skipped over all the posts that began to have a negative connotation towards either the DEVs or other players / posters. Regardless of what anyone may say about Pallys, I'm still rolling one.

15 Pally / 1 Fighter, Charismatic Khopesh wielding Dwarf named Palidan the Handsome!

Why would I do such a thing? Because I like playing DDO and I haven't tried a Pally yet. I play video games to play video games. I toss in a little roleplaying because it's kind of fun. If you're not having fun with a class, delete it and try something you may like. If you find nothing at all that tickles your fancy then maybe this game isn't for you. I think the DEVs are doing their best to keep this game balanced and I understadn that balancing an MMO is extrememly difficult. Take a break from the game if you're getting all hot and bothered. If you feel the urge to come back and play (much like I did when I took a break) then DDO isn't as bad as some make it out to be. Happy gaming and thanks DEVs for your posts within the forums. Peace!

-Premier