And so the lie of "Pally Love MOD" is complete.........

[Alcides]

I'd perfer that they added in different higher level spells like Righteous Fury and other ones like that

Aesop

Adding Righteous Fury would give the +2 hit / +2 damage that was lost from the "Divine Favor nerf" from the +4 Sacred Bonus to Strength it gives.

The bigger issue here is that we have lost some features of the paladin class that really hit home, and devalued the class.

For instance, lowering the Paladin AC/Save Aura from +2 AC / +2 Saves Base to +1 AC / +1 Saves Base. I think adding Bulwark of Good 4 is a good call on giving this back to Paladins in Mod 7. Adding Resistance of Good 4 would also be a nice touch of giving high level paladins the ability to have the Paladin Aura the way it used to be maxed at +5 AC / +5 Saves. Mind this would cost a paladin 20 enhancement points to do, but given that these bonuses affect everyone in the party I think it's well worth it.

[Tallyn]

Really? It seems to me very little thought was put into anything pally related and mod7.
If they can't add up a few numbers and see how bad Smite Evils are especially compared to a level 1 /1 AP enhancement, or compare the number and HP of DDO mobs to PnP then...I don't know what to say really.

Insinuated insult.

Yes that's because they were and are wrong. Some chose to be fanbois and not speak the truth and inthe ridculous hope that the problem would fix itself, in the end everyone lost.

Another insult.

The only admissions I saw was the blurb over the recycled cleric "faith" lines, after all the time those crappy lines have been in game NOW we get an official word ? It took THIS long for them to realize they weren't good?
After a while, say a year the excuses start getting old and you don't wanna hear excuses anymore, you want results and delivered promises.

Insinuation that you are entitled to something. This is an MMO, you really aren't entitled to anything. Read the EULA/Terms of Service for further confirmation.

No need to put thing in Turbine's mouth, the results speak for themselves; heck the dev quotes are there.
If I as a pally made half the pally related remarks in the dev tracker other players would think I was playing a different game.
Seriously go look at it.

An attempt to twist someone's else's words against them.

If I or a subordinate commited some similar mistakes in a project and kept repeating those mistakes, well let's just say someone would be leaving.

Kind of a fallacy. A comparison of your line of work, to MMO development. By the way, having played a LOT of MMOs, what is going on here is standard fare. Turbine rates better than a lot of other MMOs in some categories, not as good in others.

Maybe next time you get all worked up because you think the devs are gettign a bum rap you'll actually look at the situation a little more closely.

If you think it's acceptable to hurt gameplay for a great many players for many months, no a YEAR+, promise to fix the situation then pretend you have then by all means keep defending that practice.

There was no guarantee from Turbine that gameplay would be a certain way. They promise to make changes... that does not necessarily mean the changes will be to your liking. As much as you post about the situation, I am surprised you haven't quit. If I truly felt something was unacceptable, then I would not accept it. I would quit. Money is the bottom line for them, if people quit because they feel something is unacceptable, they will make changes. If you are continuing to play, then this is not truly 'unacceptable' to you. I am not telling to you to quit (I was joking about it before), but just defining what unacceptable is.

You will probably label me as a fanboi, although I do want more from Turbine to help the Paladin class. I am not a fanboi... however the picture you are painting is on the far extreme of a fanboi. I think there is a middle ground that can be reached. I would like to see more mature posts advocating change for the Paladin class. I realize that one year may seem a significant time, but in the course of MMO development and evolution, it really isn't. Again, I would stress being patient, but continuing to be persistent and mature.

Lastly, this is a game. If you are truly upset about this, you should probably take a break. Your posts are laced with a small amount of vitriol, or possibly sarcasm, but as text doesn't convey emotion well, I can't tell if you are very serious about this or not. Hopefully you will lighten up a bit, continue to advocate for the Paladin class, but enjoy the game as it is now, because things in MMOs do not change quickly. (Except nerfs )

Good luck to you.

[Angelus_dead]

Insinuated insult.

Another insult.

It was you who started in with the insulting insinuations, so don't get all righteous:

Just delete your Paladin, play something else. When Paladin becomes to your liking again, delete something else, reroll paladin.

You were belittling the very idea of giving feedback to improve a product, which is highly insulting to anyone who has devoted time to that goal.

Insinuation that you are entitled to something. This is an MMO, you really aren't entitled to anything. Read the EULA/Terms of Service for further confirmation.

If Turbine wants to continue getting paid, they'd better ACT like the customers are entitled to things.

[gpk]

An attempt to twist someone's else's words against them.

Twist what words? They're in the dev tracker I don't need to twist anything. Noone wants to comment on the statements because they weren't made by players.

Kind of a fallacy. A comparison of your line of work, to MMO development. By the way, having played a LOT of MMOs, what is going on here is standard fare. Turbine rates better than a lot of other MMOs in some categories, not as good in others.

Well I'm a software develoepr and have worked on some pretty big projects, when you have government reps coming to certify your work you find excuses don't go over well with them or your the people who pay your salary. I think actually QA has become the whipping boy as of late on these forums, it's pretty clear to me now much of the problem stems from the initial design.

There was no guarantee from Turbine that gameplay would be a certain way. They promise to make changes... that does not necessarily mean the changes will be to your liking.

Sometimes tt's not a subjective thing, it's not a question of ME not liking a particular thing, it's about it not being good to anyone who has given it the least amount of thought.
Past a certain point you can put down some numbers on a sheet of paper, a spreadsheet, anything really, and see what those numbers are.
If 20 X produces inferior results to 1 Y then either Y is grosssly overpowerd or X is grossly underpowered.
Odds are X is grossly underpowered.

As much as you post about the situation, I am surprised you haven't quit. If I truly felt something was unacceptable, then I would not accept it. I would quit. Money is the bottom line for them, if people quit because they feel something is unacceptable, they will make changes. If you are continuing to play, then this is not truly 'unacceptable' to you. I am not telling to you to quit (I was joking about it before), but just defining what unacceptable is.

Oh trust me I know for a fact the word "quit" is popping up in a lot of heads and not just for this issue. I tried to help make the game better but clearly there was never a chance.
I had to cut through all the forum BS , permanent forumites and fanbois to try to make some points but clearly there was failure.

Lastly, this is a game. If you are truly upset about this, you should probably take a break. Your posts are laced with a small amount of vitriol, or possibly sarcasm, but as text doesn't convey emotion well, I can't tell if you are very serious about this or not.

LOL well if you're a fan of sarcasm like I am do check out a recent dev post.

Hopefully you will lighten up a bit, continue to advocate for the Paladin class, but enjoy the game as it is now, because things in MMOs do not change quickly. (Except nerfs )

Not only do things NOT change quickly, the rate of change in DDO has slowed to a near crawl; serious issues have piled up are going unresolved for long long periods.

The new dev cycles is 4 months with less content and no in-between updates unless; this seems good to you?

P.S. I do so enjoy being accused of a certain thing by someone who's gone out of his way to do that thing.

[Tallyn]

You are right, I should have made it more clear that in my earlier posts I was joking.

I am not belittling the idea of giving feedback, I am criticizing the manner in which it is given and trying to advise people to have unreasonable expectations.

Your insinuation that if Turbine wants to get continue to get paid, they better act like the customers are entitled to things, does not sit well with me.

Paying your monthly fee, entitles you to play Dungeons & Dragons Online. It does not entitle Paladins to be the class you envisioned. It does not entitle the Paladin class to improvements that you specify, within a time frame you specify. Paying a monthly fee does not equate out to being a shareholder in the company. YOU are entitled to quit paying your monthly fee, if at any time you feel dissatisfied.

I am not advocating you quit, unless you are so dissatisfied and disgusted by things, that you truly find things unacceptable. Just asking that the advocates for changes post in a mature responsible manner.

[Tallyn]

Well I'm a software develoepr and have worked on some pretty big projects, when you have government reps coming to certify your work you find excuses don't go over well with them or your the people who pay your salary. I think actually QA has become the whipping boy as of late on these forums, it's pretty clear to me now much of the problem stems from the initial design.

You are a software developer, so you understand the process. However, I would ask you how many programers/developers you have on your staff. I would hazard a guess that Turbine may have less developers/programmers working for them than you do.

Also coding something so it works properly is different than balancing classes in an MMO, which is VERY subjective to people's opinions.

Not only do things NOT change quickly, the rate of change in DDO has slowed to a near crawl; serious issues have piled are going unresolved for long long periods.

The new dev cycles is 4 months with less content and no in-between updates unless; this seems good to you?

P.S. I do so enjoy being accused of a certain thing by someone who's gone out of his way to do that thing.

In all seriousness, how many MMOs have you played? Yes things are slow. No, changes in DDO are not the slowest I have seen.

I have played: Ultima Online, Everquest, Everquest II, World of Warcraft, Shadowbane, Dark Age of Camelot, Final Fantasy XI, EVE Online, Lineage II, Star Wars Galaxies, and Vanguard...

I think DDO Falls about in the middle as speed of updates go.

In regards to your P.S., I will not interject any more humor into my posts directed to you, as it may be misinterpreted.

[Aesop]

This thread is repidly declining and seems to me the mean green machine may come to wiggle his way through it soon.

The bilk of it is this

The improvements given to the Paladins in this Module, a module which was told to us to be a Module with a lot of improvements to Paladins and Rogues (while also implementing Monks), left the Paladin Enthusiasts with a bad taste in their mouths. The Feedback which has been very forthcoming from said enthusiasts about what they would like to see wasn't much referenced. The lack of new Spells, Prestige Enhancements (the Faith Lines are more like flavor as their effects are very situational and limited in use vs the other PrEs seen given other classes... mostly Ranger and even those aren't always considered up to snuff...see Deepwoods Sniper gripes) and no further implementation of Divine Feats (as either Feat or Enhancements) was brought forward.

So of the things ask for by the Paladin Enthusiasts we had

Make Smite Evil more pertinate and useful relative to combat in this game: Ok they went for this one but didn't quite cut it. They fell short because of they overestimated the usefulness of what they were putting out there vs the actual content.

Reduction of Enhancement Costs for Aura: Bingo very nice... only one problem is that they then made the exalted Smite line which has other prerequisite Enhancements thus making the whole thing very expensive. So those points you saved are now moved to somewhere else that really isn't benefiting you over the entire course of a quest.

Spells: Well we had about 5 that we put forth and unless they still have a big unveiling of spells it doesn't look good. Those were important for the overall effectiveness of paladins. You incorporated one which has a big penalty to it as an enhancement and I think that one has backfired. The one good side is that you did upgrade the Holy Sword spell to be useful in more situations. So there is a silver lining there I suppose but it is very tarnished

Divine Feat. We got nada there. Again this is an Over all Effectiveness thing here. Those are excellent resources for Pallies and Clerics especially with the inflated HD of undead making them nigh Immune to Turns anyway.

PrE: There have been a number of what I would think of as decent suggestions for this, but Isuppose with a lot of resources being dedicated to Monk you really didn't have a lot to play with here... so that brings up this



You should not have said this was a Pally Love Mod.

This is a Monk Mod with a few things for Pallies

I see:
1 spell tweak
AP cost reduction for a couple lines
AP cost increase for a line
3 new Enhancement lines with heavy prerequisites that are of limited or questionable value


am I missing anything big?

Aesop

[gpk]

I am not belittling the idea of giving feedback, I am criticizing the manner in which it is given and trying to advise people to have unreasonable expectations.

Well the "feedback" has been given in every possible manner and all of it has gone ignored. Unreasonable expectations would have been to expect a superman enhancement like BBN Crit Rage 2, reasonable would be to expect similar quality stuff that mod6 Rangers got to pull the pally class out of the gutter.
Does that seem unreasonable to you?

Your insinuation that if Turbine wants to get continue to get paid, they better act like the customers are entitled to things, does not sit well with me.

Paying your monthly fee, entitles you to play Dungeons & Dragons Online. It does not entitle Paladins to be the class you envisioned. It does not entitle the Paladin class to improvements that you specify, within a time frame you specify. Paying a monthly fee does not equate out to being a shareholder in the company. YOU are entitled to quit paying your monthly fee, if at any time you feel dissatisfied.

Well if Mod5 is advertised with a Mod5 raid and I pay my 60$ for 4 months I fully expect to play a working raid for more than 2-3 weeks of mod5. Does that seem acceptable to you? If they told us in mod5 that the Raid wasn't going to be fixed after the designers broke it then perhaps many customers would have not paid for another 3 months of mod5.
In fact a great many people on my server took a 2-3 month break in mod5 after the raid was borked, I foolishly stuck around in a misguided attempt to help and reported bugs, issues and offered suggestions based on many many hours of hands-on testing. Noone twisted my arm however and I endured the endless forum dribble like "well all you need is more practice".
One third of the problem was fixed: ice puzzle; one third of a fix is not a fix. It is in no way shape or form acceptable and should not be treated as such so as to spare a paid proffesional's "feelings".

After a while when serious issues go unresolved and proper player feedback is completely ignored and half-assed work is being done you start asking yourself "*** is going on?" ?

Was I not ENTITLED to a working Mod5 raid that was advertised and I PAID for?

[Angelus_dead]

In regards to your P.S., I will not interject any more humor into my posts directed to you, as it may be misinterpreted.

Just because a statement is humorous doesn't mean it can't also be insulting. The idiom "making fun of me" is used to describe that possibility. In some situations, any attempt at humor is automatically an insult.

[Tallyn]

Well if the Mod5 is advertised with a Mod5 raid and I pay my 60$ for 4 months I fully expect to play a working raid for more than 2-3 weeks of mod5. Does that seem acceptable to you? If they told us in mod5 that the Raid wasn't going to be fixed after the designers broke it then perhaps many customers would have not paid for anotehr 3 months of mod5.
In fact a great many people on my server took a 2-3 month break in mod5 after the raid was borked, I foolishly stuck around in a misguided attempt to help and reported bugs, issues and offered suggestions based on many many hours of hands-on testing. Noone twisted my arm however and I endured the endless forum dribble like "well all you need is more practice".
One third of the problem was fixed: ice puzzle; one third of a fix is not a fix. It is in no way shape or form acceptable and should not be treated as such so as to spare a paid proffesional's "feelings".

After a while when serious issues go unresolved and proper player feedback is completely ignored and half-assed work is being done you start asking yourself "*** is going on?" ?

Was I not ENTITLED to a working Mod5 raid that was advertised and I PAID for?

I took a break about that time because of RL and frustration with certain things. Tried out some other games, then came back, because for the time being, this is the MMO I enjoy best. So, I'm speaking from hearsay here.

As I understand it, the Abbot raid is still beatable, although very hard. Just like Titan was when it first came out. So it's not truly broken, just extremely difficult.

If this is not the case and the raid was truly broken, so that there was no chance of completing it at all I apologize. I wasn't there.

[Coldin]

You should not have said this was a Pally Love Mod.

This is a Monk Mod with a few things for Pallies

I see:
1 spell tweak
AP cost reduction for a couple lines
AP cost increase for a line
3 new Enhancement lines with heavy prerequisites that are of limited or questionable value


am I missing anything big?

Aesop

Sounds about right to me. This really wasn't so much a Rogue/Paladin Love Mod, as it was a Monk Mod with high and low level content to go with it.

[oronisi]

I took a break about that time because of RL and frustration with certain things. Tried out some other games, then came back, because for the time being, this is the MMO I enjoy best. So, I'm speaking from hearsay here.

As I understand it, the Abbot raid is still beatable, although very hard. Just like Titan was when it first came out. So it's not truly broken, just extremely difficult.

If this is not the case and the raid was truly broken, so that there was no chance of completing it at all I apologize. I wasn't there.

When a group of players decide to complete a raid no matter the cost, finally complete the raid after weeks of practice and countless resources, then after completion, swear they will never do that again.....I call that broken.

[gpk]

As I understand it, the Abbot raid is still beatable, although very hard. Just like Titan was when it first came out. So it's not truly broken, just extremely difficult.

If this is not the case and the raid was truly broken, so that there was no chance of completing it at all I apologize. I wasn't there.

LOL you had to bring up the titan huh, oh the irony.

Still though you quoted my post but haven't address it; but hey I don't pay you anything now do I.

[llevenbaxx]

am I missing anything big?

Aesop

Nope, pretty much dead on.

[gpk]

You are a software developer, so you understand the process. However, I would ask you how many programers/developers you have on your staff. I would hazard a guess that Turbine may have less developers/programmers working for them than you do.

Oh I'm sure Turbine has both more manpower and way more resources than I ever had at my disposal.

Also coding something so it works properly is different than balancing classes in an MMO, which is VERY subjective to people's opinions.

Yes SOME things are subjective, others are not or are very little.

Some things just boil down to numbers and it's very VERY easy to see if those numbers are still insignifactly low and too costly. If you choose to ignore those numbers which practically leap out of the page/screen then it is a huge mistake.

In all seriousness, how many MMOs have you played? Yes things are slow. No, changes in DDO are not the slowest I have seen.

I have played: Ultima Online, Everquest, Everquest II, World of Warcraft, Shadowbane, Dark Age of Camelot, Final Fantasy XI, EVE Online, Lineage II, Star Wars Galaxies, and Vanguard...

I think DDO Falls about in the middle as speed of updates go.

Oh I've tried a few but only mostly stuck it out with 2 for long periods of time, DDO being one of them.
Personally I don't care what the other MMOs are doing, they don't get my $.
If all the other MMOs jumped off a bridge should DDO jump too?

[Tallyn]

LOL you had to bring up the titan huh,oh the irony.

Still though you quoted my post but haven't address it; but hey I don't pay you anything now do I.

Ok, to address your post then let me ask you... Why did you continue to pay your monthly fee, when you felt that the major raid that you wished to participate in was broken?

[gpk]

Ok, to address your post then let me ask you... Why did you continue to pay your monthly fee, when you felt that the major raid that you wished to participate in was broken?

I already explained why, I was trying to help fix it and kept hoping the fix would come soon so that I could play it.
You don't know how many hours we spent testing things over and over after every patch in order to provide proper feedback, it got harder and harder to get 6 people to go in with you too. Every week and every patch that went by people felt like they were being misled and ignored and by the last weeks of mod5 I couldn't pay people step near the raid entrance. As I've said many people took a 2-3 month break from DDO after the raid was broken; there are repercussions to things of that nature.

What would you have done if you were here?

[Tallyn]

I already explained why, I was trying to help fix it and kept hoping the fix would come soon so that I could play it.
You don't know how many hours we spent testing things over and over after every patch in order to provide proper feedback, it got harder and harder to get 6 people to go in with you too. Every week and every patch that went by people felt like they were being misled and ignored and by the last weeks of mod5 I couldn't pay people step near the raid entrance. As I've said many people took a 2-3 month break from DDO after the raid was broken; there are repercussions to things of that nature.

What would you have done if you were here?

I did what I would have done.. I would have taken a break from the game. As did some of your friends/associates.

[Angelus_dead]

Oh I'm sure Turbine has both more manpower and way more resources than I ever had at my disposal.

Except that they're assigned to LOTRO, huh!

[gpk]

I did what I would have done.. I would have taken a break from the game. As did some of your friends/associates.

Well I guess I'm the idiot for being hopeful, patient and trying to help fix the problem.
Egg on my face, won't happen again! Oh wait too late...