Fun vs. Well Played

[cyadra]

Did a quest through a dungeon in gianthold tonight. The party was looking for a sorc and a sorc only, not wizard. I thought it odd, but requested a join. The fighter asked before I joined if I had firewall, I said sure. We did the quest level 11 eliete I am level 9, the rest of the party was 9-11.

This group was the most well run, and well planned out group I have ever seen in four years of playing. Three tanks, a cleric and me. All the tanks did was shield block and aggro. The leader would run off bring back the aggro, three tanks shield blocked perfectly, and I was instructed to firewall behind everyone. The cleric just stood there and healed maybe once or twice. It was amazing, no one died, no one ran off, the stray wandering monster was killed by the tanks, but most of the mobs just burned away in my firewalls.

At the end of the quest one of the tanks complained that it was "not fun" because he hardly swung his sword. The kill count was me at 60 and everyone else under 10. I told the tank, your alive you did your job and I did mine, so why complain? That was probably the easiest eliete quest you will ever do.

In some instances is there a trade off between having fun and doing your job and playing the game well?

[MrCow]

Depending on the size of the shield wall bottleneck location and the duration a critter was in the fire they could have swung their weaponry with no fear of retaliation or having a breach (and therefore little need to moan about not swinging a sword). Hobgobs do this to me all the time when I get stuck having a mass herd of them running all about A Cabal for One and then jumping only to be stuck hovering over the unruly crowd. They attack me just fine and I can't move.

Also, judging by the tactics and it being an elite gianthold quest it sounds like you just described the typical Trial by Fire run (and a Sorcerer is preferred as they tend to have just enough SP at that level to kill nearly everything up to the shrine).

As far as "fun" and "doing your job" I s'pose this ultimately depends on the player and their motivations for being in DDO. Some people would like an efficient run over doing what is impulsive or desirable (and vice versa). Finding those who fit into the same camp as you tends to help make this a non-issue (although, I realize this is not likely).

[esoitl]

i'm having trouble picturing which quest this was, no GH quest is below 13-15 elite
but thats neither here nor there

once you had aggro with the WoF the fighters could have swung away all they wanted and likely never pick up aggro before the enemies died
i often run Cabal using a similar strategy of WoF and solid fog on just about every door or junction in the quest using PK for the pesky ones and Hold for the lone strays

it works phenomenally well and often the same thing applies, fighters can swing away and never actually get aggro before the mob is dead
often they have a much higher kill count as well

i don't think i have ever heard a complaint from a group i have ran with as to not being fun


it all depends on how you like to play i suppose. i enjoy running CC with my sorc more than nuking personally and have even gone quests without getting a kill at all
i play an intimi-tank as well who has a very low kill count but generally the runs are much smoother and there are no complaints..... maybe your tank was just a bit too focused on kills, which means absolutely nothing IMO, over having a good quest

[Merkinsal]

Personally I like a teamwork and a run like that could be fun. But too much of a good thing, especially well scripted runs lol where everything is pretty predictible, can get a little boring. A chaotic, something went wrong, omg what is happening, time to get down kind of moment is a great deal of fun. Not wiping in 10 secs alway helps the experience and surviving is that much better. I liked this thread.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=145673

I don't see or play in many pugs which are so picky about who they want as the one you were in and maybe I have never played in one as well done as yours because of that. A good variety of players often makes quests interesting simply because they can not be run the same way every time and I like the variety as I am sure the leaders like the challenge. Also, I like the idea of getting all players in the game involved and not excluding classes. The way that quest was run, he could have added, included or substituted a ranger, rouge, bard or a wizard. And why not? Different strokes for different folks I guess.

[Oxvon]

Did a quest through a dungeon in gianthold tonight. The party was looking for a sorc and a sorc only, not wizard. I thought it odd, but requested a join. The fighter asked before I joined if I had firewall, I said sure. We did the quest level 11 elite I am level 9, the rest of the party was 9-11.

This group was the most well run, and well planned out group I have ever seen in four years of playing. Three tanks, a cleric and me. All the tanks did was shield block and aggro. The leader would run off bring back the aggro, three tanks shield blocked perfectly, and I was instructed to firewall behind everyone. The cleric just stood there and healed maybe once or twice. It was amazing, no one died, no one ran off, the stray wandering monster was killed by the tanks, but most of the mobs just burned away in my firewalls.

At the end of the quest one of the tanks complained that it was "not fun" because he hardly swung his sword. The kill count was me at 60 and everyone else under 10. I told the tank, your alive you did your job and I did mine, so why complain? That was probably the easiest eliete quest you will ever do.

In some instances is there a trade off between having fun and doing your job and playing the game well?

I hope the highlighted text there is experience from another mmo, bc ddo has not been out for 4 years lol

As for the question you posed.

*I* tend to try and do quest in a way that is fun for me, some people get ****ed at me and others keep up with me. Sure how you guys did that quest was effective but boring, kind of like a quest that is of major discussion right now, but lets not get into that.

The only time I see it better to do it the effective way and loose the fun factor is when your leveling up lowbies and doing quests that are "too high" for your level, like the one you talked about.

[rimble]

Wall of Fire screws up everything. My initial character was a pure Paladin, and sure, he pretty much sucked, he wasn't built well, but man was he boring. Just stood around in doorways with my shield up.

Sure, being successful is important, but if you're just being successful so that you can progress to higher levels of standing around behind a shield, what's the point? It's all just standing around behind a shield.

However, doing Elite quests above your level, go ahead and cheese the shield wall with Wall of Fire, you probably wouldn't succeed otherwise.

I had a Fighter (sword and board) make a comment on Normal Let Sleeping Dust Lie last night. Something along the lines of "man, we're just occupiers". "We just stand around occupying things until you casters get around to PK/FoD'ing it". *shrug* Yeah, if you can't Vorpal it down quick enough, sorry, that's why I made this guy, I got bored doing what you're doing. I appreciate it though, someone has to stand in front me.

[cyadra]

Yes, I played when the first came out...then took a three year break, and came back just to see the new content.
So why then do people make paladins or characters that are meat shields?

[Dungnmaster001]

Yes, I played when the first came out...then took a three year break, and came back just to see the new content.

The game has only been around for 2 years...and a couple months. Unless you're a time traveller it's just not possible to take a 3 year break even if you left the first day and just came back this morning. I know what you meant to say though

As for why people make meat shields, some people enjoy it. But just because you're a fighter/paladin/whatever doesn't mean you should be expected to be nothing more than a shield blocker. Some people are just doing a quest for the reward (exp or loot or favor) but most do it for fun. Standing around shieldblocking is an efficient way to get the reward but it's not much fun. All the characters I play are melee based because that's the kind I enjoy most right now, and I do take up the shieldblocking routine when it's appropriate but if I had to do it for every encounter of even a small majority of the quests I'd probably end up quitting the game.

[Borror0]

At the end of the quest one of the tanks complained that it was "not fun" because he hardly swung his sword. The kill count was me at 60 and everyone else under 10. I told the tank, your alive you did your job and I did mine, so why complain? That was probably the easiest eliete quest you will ever do.

I play the game to have fun. I like DDO because it's fast paced, there is action. If a group leader tells me that we'll shield block the whole quest, I don't care on what character I'm on, I'll drop. It's simply not fun, there is no challenge, no risk. Shield wall will be fixed starting module 7, and I will not cry about it.

[sigtrent]

Yes, I played when the first came out...then took a three year break, and came back just to see the new content.

DDO is only 2 years old. It didn't exist prior to that.

So why then do people make paladins or characters that are meat shields?

Because they like playing them?


You were probably doing Cabal for One which is far far easier blocking doors and firewalling than any of the other gianthold quests and you can pull mosnters from pretty deep in the dungeon to many narrow doorways. It is much harder to do it the mob of fighters way.

Of course not every quest has nice gaps for using shield walls.

I'd also add the whole "shield wall" thing is a bit misleading. The folks in the wall don't much need shields, or AC or much of anything if done properly. They could just stand there and spin in circles or look for ham or whatever so long as they stand there. I've shield walled with wizards and rogues and all manner of characters. You can attack the monsters but generaly there isn't much need to if the sorc/wiz does succicient damage. Sometiems if they are damage light it helps to add damage to conserve the casters mana but usualy you want to let them cook a couple of ticks to ensure agro before you start swinging.

Walling is dull and because you could do it almost as effectively with a first level rogue as a level 20 paladin it makes you feel like you arn't really doing anything in the quest. Especialy if you do deep pulls and the tanks are just standing in place for 10 mintues at a time. It's boring. I usualy take swings when I'm on the wall to amuse myself. In a really strong group I don't like using walls, it just takes more time. In a weaker group compared to the quest level (like the situation you are in) it is almost an essential tactic as it really concerves party resoruces in a big way. I also thing it is one of the biggest flaws in the game AI. The mosters should figure out they need to kill the critters that are blocking their path.

[Ransacked]

I think it would be more fun running around as the tank, expecting the caster to drop a firewall and not be safe behind a wall of "shields" standing there doing nothing.

Goes faster and it keeps you on your toes.

It's like when cloudkill used to not draw aggro.

God that was an irritating way to run a quest... talk about boring.

[Desteria]

Meh i woudl nto say walsl area needed when recently leveling up my new ranger a fun pug was doign MoM and TBF, did them once each on elite we were leve 8-10, we just ran up and killed stuff it;s fun getting +50% xp fro levle 10 in a elve 15 quest, and +50% xp first tiem at teh same time
Now I'm sure most of that gorup was experanced players on alts btu the same quest on norm shoudl be easly doable but the same levels of average players.

[Ransacked]

Id also like to state...

If you are not playing well and having fun at the same time... then you aren't really acheiving either unless you're one of those types that strives for failure...

[Kingfish]

Yes, I played when the first came out...then took a three year break, and came back just to see the new content.

I too am waiting to hear the response to this too...Maybe your getting DDO confuzzed with...errrr, ummm...maybe he IS a time-traveler? Can i drive your De Lorean?

[Sydril]

I started playing DDO in 1985, right after frogger and donkey kong fell into disfavor. Pac man was still going pretty strong. I then took a 9 year break and started playing doom and ddo at the same time. Then I stopped and have been on DDO since. I also have 15 pink elephants living in my back yard.

[Ransacked]

I guess it really just boils down to What defines "well played." Is it specifically looking for a class? Letting 1 or 2 people show boat the quest while everyone else stands around?

To the person who said something about Sleeping Dust and Melee's. I've run both through there... If I'm on a melee I'm whipping a cursespewer/shattermantle around so the caster can spot / pop the mobs easier which means I'm not getting the kills but I'm certainly running around like a lunatic and it's productive!

To your opening post:
I duo a lot with my wife. I have a battle cleric, she has a rogue.

We were looking to run the Tor to get my BC flagged for reaver runs and there was a group with a few other people inside it. They were looking for a cleric and some other stuff. I asked if they'd take me and the rogue along and they said no we don't need a rogue.

So we stood there for a second slightly irritated at the stupidity of some people and proceeded to DUO the quest with an LFM up advertising for more.

Cleric / Rogue Tor Underway for Flagging
Giants Done
East Wing clear, West wing clear, etc...
No one had joined by the time we made it to the skeletons.
What was funny is that the other group still had their LFM up at this point.
As soon as I posted "At the skeletons, need firepower" I had 3 sorcs join the party and a tank.
They get in, we kill off the skellies, clear the rest of the mobs, kill the dragons, etc, finish the quest.
By the time we were done, their LFM was -still- up looking for specific characters.

Don't really know where I was going with that but I enjoyed rubbing it in. I guess I'm just trying to say that "well played" is different for everyone. My idea of well played is having fun and not sitting around with my thumb up my ****shoot.

[Borror0]

I started playing DDO in 1985, right after frogger and donkey kong fell into disfavor. Pac man was still going pretty strong. I then took a 9 year break and started playing doom and ddo at the same time. Then I stopped and have been on DDO since. I also have 15 pink elephants living in my back yard.

I've been playing DDO for years.

I mean, Pac Man was a practice for the Shroud, right?

[Fritz]

i guess its a matter of perspective.

how about going into gianthold at level 10 with a group thats all level 12-14 and them turning to you and saying, ok go kill everything, you are the sorc.

they dont shield block, they dont really do anything besides run around and fight one monster at a time and leave the other half dozen for the sorc to deal with, solo.

then when youve died so many times all your gear is broken because you are level 10 in a level 14 quest and the morons who asked you to go expect you to be able to solo, ask yourself if that was fun for you.



sadly there isnt much middle ground.

either they can shield block for you and complain about not having fun while you are extremly successful.
or
they can all do their own thing while you die repeatedly and have the quest take 5x longer than it should.

choices, choices.

[GeneralDiomedes]

next mod will make running quests in that manner a tad more interesting.

[captain1z]

If that group was on ghall, I think I saw it and was afraid to join. Madstone elite can be a nightmare at that level and I wanted to have 6th level spells b4 going in. My loss huh.