Elemental Sorc vs Energy Sorc

[Atax]

So, I did a quick search and found a few threads, but they didn't really cover what I wanted to know.

As we all know, nearly every sorc.. regardless of their path (CC, Nukers, Insta, whatever) use mainly Elemental spells. That is, spells that use Fire and/or Ice damage. The very spell Fire Wall nearly defines the sorc's killing power, alongside fireball, and is likely the most common damage spell used at most sorc levels.

So the question is: Why?

I haven't grouped with a single energy sorc (Energy hereafter referring to any acid or electric damage spell) in the week since I've made my WF, and he's level 8 now. I've spoken to only two people who claimed to have energy sorcs, but I never got to see them in action..

I'm a big believer in going against the crowd.. Often going out of my way to choose or do what everyone else doesn't want. I want to know if energy is viable and if so, why don't more people use it?

I thought perhaps that Elemental outdamaged Energy, but it doesn't.. At each level, there is an equivalently awesome counterpart on each side.

For example:
The Infamous Fire Wall
2d6 + (1 x Caster level) = (9th) 15damage/3sec = 5dps (Assuming it takes 3 seconds for things sitting in the FW to be hit again or it takes 3 seconds for you to run them back into it)


The Underdog Acid Cloud
3d4/2 seconds x 3 caster levels = (9th) 36damage/6sec (Or 18damage/3sec, for comparison) = 6dps

---------------------------

Yes, fireball and scorching ray do great damage.. but ice creatures are few and far between, where fire-immunte creatures (Or worse, fire-regening creatures!) [Fire giants, hellhounds, giant hunters, mephits, elementals, blackbones, etc] are pretty common. How many common creatures are immune to acid? Electricity?? Resistant?

I find niac's, the main cold spell (To use on the oh-so common fire creatures) at low-mid level, is horrible. The reflex to save for NO damage is ****.. What do you target? Fire eles and mephits have great reflex saves, so thats a waste.. may as well use MM. Even the giants avoid niacs! I can only get Hellhounds with niac's, and even then.. its more mana-efficient to MM, since MM never misses and niac's still might miss for 0 dmg.


Also, as an added bonus: Damage & Crit boosts to energy spells are much easier to obtain than fire/ice :P

[Angelus_dead]

I thought perhaps that Elemental outdamaged Energy, but it doesn't.. At each level, there is an equivalently awesome counterpart on each side.

No, there is not. Your example is very wrong, for a few reasons. First, you are talking about a spell that doesn't exist. There is nothing called "Acid Cloud" in DDO. You apparently meant to say "Acid Rain". Second, Acid Rain is not remotely close to Wall of Fire. Acid Rain is an AOE DOT, while Firewall is a Lingering AOE.

The direct comparator for Firewall should be Acid Fog, a higher level spell which has an additional CC benefit, but much less damage.

The way to look at Fire vs Acid spells:
Scorching Ray vs Melf's Acid Arrow
Fireball vs Acid Rain
Wall of Fire vs Acid Fog
DBF vs nothing

The Infamous Fire Wall
2d6 + (1 x Caster level) = (9th) 15damage/3sec = 5dps (Assuming it takes 3 seconds for things sitting in the FW to be hit again or it takes 3 seconds for you to run them back into it)
The Underdog Acid Cloud
3d4/2 seconds x 3 caster levels = (9th) 36damage/6sec (Or 18damage/3sec, for comparison) = 6dps

Many things wrong with that comparison.
1. Assuming it makes sense to look at Firewall next to Acid Rain
2. Assuming that DPS is the important factor (DPM is usually more important)
3. Computing that Acid Rain does 6 DPS

In reality, Acid Rain does 3d4/2 = 3*2.5/2 = 3.75 DPS. The caster level is not multiplied in the DPS, only in the total damage. At level 9, Acid Raid will do 3d4*8/2 = 3*2.5*4= 30 damage total over the life of the spell (and only to monsters that were already in the Rain when it was cast).

By comparison, a level 9 casting of Wall of Fire does 16 per tick, or 8 DPS. So more than twice the DPS, even though that's not what matters. The total damage per spell (or damage per mana) is more important. I don't know the total ticks from level 9 WOF, but at level 16 it has 12.

So for total damage per spell from a level 16 caster, WOF is 25*12 = 300 and Acid Rain is 7.5*6 = 45. Oh, and if the monster is undead then WOF is doubled.

[Atax]

The reason for comparison of Acid Rain (My mistake!) to Wall of Fire is because they're the same level and base mana cost.

Thanks for the clarifications on the math, its never been my forte.. especially throwing time into things. If what you say is true, then Fire Wall completely and undoubtedly owns Acid Rain.. and I can't see why Acid Rain is even in the game.

Now, I hear good things about Acid Fog. From the perspective of players who've used both Energy and Elemental spells, can you list the useful spells from each catagory so that I may see which spells are useful (Fire Wall, Acid Fog) and which one's aren't? (Acid Rain - which I chose instead of Fire Wall to test. Man, its horrid..)
----------------
1 - Burning Hands ELEMENTAL
1 - Shocking Grasp ENERGY
1- Niac's Cold Ray ELEMENTAL

2 - Scorching Ray ELEMENTAL
2 - Flaming Sphere ELEMENTAL
2 - Melf's Acid Arrow ENERGY

3 - Fireball ELEMENTAL
3 - Lightning Bolt ENERGY

4 - Ice Storm ELEMENTAL
4 - Wall of Fire ELEMENTAL
4 - Acid Rain ENERGY

5 - Cone of Cold ELEMENTAL
5 - Ball Lightning ENERGY

6 - Chain Lightning ENERGY
6 - Otiluke's Freezing Sphere ELEMENTAL
6 - Acid Fog ENERGY

7 -Delayed Blast Fireball ELEMENTAL

8 - Polar Ray ELEMENTAL
8 - Incendiary Cloud ELEMENTAL

-----------------

Seems the ratio of availability is 12 elemental to 7 energy spells, making the selection a bit more difficult. I, so far, find Acid Rain pretty useless. Im rather curious on how useful chain lightning, ball lightning and acid fog are, though.

[Ghoste]

Considering that the duration of acid fog is double that of firewall, and enemies take full damage anywhere in the cloud, and the cloud slows them and gives them a 20% miss chance, a single acid fog usually does more damage than a single firewall.

Firewall comes out ahead for several reasons though:
1) When you get your target right in the middle of the fire and are able to hold him there, firewall does do more damage.
2) Firewalls stack for damage, acid spells don't. 2 acid fogs: only the highest damage numbers count. 2 acid arrows, again only the highest numbers count.
3) Damage reduction/resistance. Acid spells tend to do a lot of damage, but stretched out more over time in smaller numbers per tick. Any damage reduction reduces the damage for each tick. The more spread out the damage, the more the DR is able to reduce the total number of damage dealt.
4) Sometimes you want to get the job done quick.

[Angelus_dead]

Now, I hear good things about Acid Fog.

The best part of Acid Fog is the CC, not the damage. Solid Fog and Acid Fog both have the same primary CC effect, but SF is higher level and costs more spellpoints. They are so similar that the choice really comes down to which spell slots you have open, but SF can beat AF for several reasons. It is annoying to have to toggle the Maximize and Empower feats off and on just because you'd rather not waste mana boosting the damage of a spell you're only casting for crowd control.

However, SF is competing for spell slots against Curse, PK, Fear, DD, Enervation, Fire Shield, Stoneskin, and Firewall, all of which are very attractive (even Charm Monster is rather nice). AF only competes with Disint, Great Hero, FtS, Mass Suggestion, and Reconstruct. So, more sorcerers seem able to drop a level 6 slot for AF than a level 4 slot for SF.

From the perspective of players who've used both Energy and Elemental spells, can you list the useful spells from each catagory so that I may see which spells are useful (Fire Wall, Acid Fog) and which one's aren't? (Acid Rain - which I chose instead of Fire Wall to test. Man, its horrid..)

Sure, I already listed the most useful spells.
Highly useful: Scorching Ray, Wall of Fire, Acid Fog, Cone of Cold
Moderately useful: Fireball, DBF, Chain Lightning
Rarely useful: Acid Arrow, Polar Ray

Seems the ratio of availability is 12 elemental to 7 energy spells, making the selection a bit more difficult. I, so far, find Acid Rain pretty useless. Im rather curious on how useful chain lightning, ball lightning and acid fog are, though.

Chain/Ball Lightning is a decent damage spell, but it is weakened by not benefiting from the Elemental damage enhancements. If a character happened to have equal levels of Energy and Elemental enhancements, then it would make sense to often use Chain or Ball Lightning in place of Cone of Cold or DBF. But that character would be better off retraining his enhancements and moving APs out of the Energy line.

Special note: If you spend a lot of time raiding The Shroud, then Energy becomes a little better. On normal mode someone with acid enhancements can do cost-effective damage to Arraetrikos with Acid Arrow + Acid Fog. However, it's still helpful to have a firewall to kill some lieutenants in the same quest. And in general, damaging Arraetrikos is not a job for a spellcaster.

[Jakarr]

I am basing my Battlesorc around the use of energy/force spells mostly b/c I will have alot of buffs to fill my slots so with not having alot of Energy/force spells it works out in a way of forcing me to be happy with my spell selection =). But in any case its kinda Themed sence I am WF and I love Lightning Bolt

[Fritz]

i hate to say this, but wall of fire is broken and needs to be nerfed.

when people are running around all over my server with 7 wizard/X builds just because wall of fire pwns all, that means there is something wrong with the implementation of the spell, im sorry.


a level 4 spell should not be the end-all be-all damage spell.

[Fritz]

oh, and before someone goes crazy because i said the N word, i was thinking something more along the lines of what monsters would really do...

what i mean is, if you see a wall of fire, are you going to stand inside of it, or right outside of it? right outside of it, even a brainless animal wont stand in a wall of fire.

yet in ddo, with all their nifty mob ai, the mobs dont fear a lowly wall of fire, they are so freaking brain dead they will just stand in a fire and cook themselves.


so what they should do is make monsters avoid the wall of fire after they take initial damage, like ANYTHING would do, even insects avoid fires.


where as your higher level spells like acid fog and whatnot usually come with a secondary control method of blindness that makes it nearly impossible for the monster to avoid or get out of the cloud.



just make the monsters as smart as insects and wall of fire goes from all powerful to a so-so spell thats useful when you can trap the monsters into it, or for creating barriers and bottlenecks, which is about where the spell should be.

wall of fire was never designed as a spell that monsters would ignore and just brainlessly stand inside, otherwise it would have only done minor damage in pnp.

the justification for its damage was the fact that most things would avoid it after the first hit.


in ddo, its just broken.

[Mhykke]

oh, and before someone goes crazy because i said the N word, i was thinking something more along the lines of what monsters would really do...

what i mean is, if you see a wall of fire, are you going to stand inside of it, or right outside of it? right outside of it, even a brainless animal wont stand in a wall of fire.

yet in ddo, with all their nifty mob ai, the mobs dont fear a lowly wall of fire, they are so freaking brain dead they will just stand in a fire and cook themselves.


so what they should do is make monsters avoid the wall of fire after they take initial damage, like ANYTHING would do, even insects avoid fires.


where as your higher level spells like acid fog and whatnot usually come with a secondary control method of blindness that makes it nearly impossible for the monster to avoid or get out of the cloud.



just make the monsters as smart as insects and wall of fire goes from all powerful to a so-so spell thats useful when you can trap the monsters into it, which is about where the spell should be.

wall of fire was never designed as a spell that monsters would ignore and just brainlessly stand inside, otherwise it would have only done minor damage in pnp.

the justification for its damage was the fact that most things would avoid it after the first hit.


in ddo, its just broken.

Meh, as I've said before, these criticisms are a mod too late.

The devs did a nice job of negating some of the uses of wall of fire by introducing a mod w/ many fire immune enemies. Not too many people running orthons and bearded devils through walls of fire. The spell is no where near as useful as it used to be.

And besides, if the mob AI was changed to avoid it, it would simply open up a new avenue of people to use it where folks would come to the forums to claim the AI needs to be changed again. If they changed it, you could throw a wall of fire in select places and avoid mobs behind the wall altogether, b/c they wouldn't cross it to get to the party.

[Fritz]

Meh, as I've said before, these criticisms are a mod too late.

The devs did a nice job of negating some of the uses of wall of fire by introducing a mod w/ many fire immune enemies. Not too many people running orthons and bearded devils through walls of fire. The spell is no where near as useful as it used to be.

And besides, if the mob AI was changed to avoid it, it would simply open up a new avenue of people to use it where folks would come to the forums to claim the AI needs to be changed again. If they changed it, you could throw a wall of fire in select places and avoid mobs behind the wall altogether, b/c they wouldn't cross it to get to the party.

which is exactly how the spell was used in pnp.

in pnp the spell was mainly for creating barriers and bottle-necks.

that was what justified its damage, because nothing would stand in it, it effectively created a WALL of FIRE.

imagine that.

[Mhykke]

which is exactly how the spell was used in pnp.

in pnp the spell was mainly for creating barriers and bottle-necks.

that was what justified its damage, because nothing would stand in it, it effectively created a WALL of FIRE.

imagine that.

Do you honestly think that if they changed the AI to not cross wall of fire, and you had casters running through quests just casting WoF a few times, having mobs go no where near them, and had them running through quests even faster than they do now, people wouldn't be coming asking for the spell to be changed, or the AI changed yet again?

I know I'd be throwing WoF behind mobs and just running past them, knowing they wouldn't be following......over and over. I wouldn't use any other spells, as I wouldn't have to bother killing or CC'ing them.

[Fritz]

Do you honestly think that if they changed the AI to not cross wall of fire, and you had casters running through quests just casting WoF a few times, having mobs go no where near them, and had them running through quests even faster than they do now, people wouldn't be coming asking for the spell to be changed, or the AI changed yet again?

I know I'd be throwing WoF behind mobs and just running past them, knowing they wouldn't be following......over and over. I wouldn't use any other spells, as I wouldn't have to bother killing or CC'ing them.

that would be much more realistic than monsters who just brainlessly stand inside a wall of fire.

and you are just ignoring the fact that after your wall of fire fades, they keep chasing you.

or that they can simply go around it.

if you hesitate for even a few seconds at the wrong place, your strategy will end up with you steamrolled by a horde of monsters.


even if you wedge yourself into a corner, eventually you will run out of spell points and then you will die.

[Mhykke]

that would be much more realistic than monsters who just brainlessly stand inside a wall of fire.

and you are just ignoring the fact that after your wall of fire fades, they keep chasing you.

or that they can simply go around it.

if you hesitate for even a few seconds at the wrong place, your strategy will end up with you steamrolled by a horde of monsters.


even if you wedge yourself into a corner, eventually you will run out of spell points and then you will die.

Well, if we're assuming an elf summoning a wall of fire out of thin air, hard to argue realism.

And after my wall of fire fades, I'm long, long gone. What would be the point of stopping? You'd finish quests in about 7 minutes.

The argument about hesitating, being steamrolled, etc., can also be applied to today's tactics. If you hesitate trying to burn mobs with wall of fire, you're dead.

[Redcoil]

Considering we all know Firewalls damage capability is higher, the fact it can be combined with dance AND web; yes web, are what truly give it the edge. And its the same enhancements for fireball, cone of cold, otiluks, polar ray... and that if you max that enhancement, your highest level enhancement applies to Disentegrate.

Yet looking at Electrical and Acid, acids DoT capabilities are weaker, even if maxed.
Electrical while has similar damage capabilities, has quite a few limited spells. On the situation in which you find something Immune to Elec - or worse - hasted from it, your out of good DPS at that point.

[sirgog]

Since Mod 6 came out, I've kept all the Fire//Ice enhancements, but also added a moderate level of Acid//Elec to it (spending 7 AP to get +30% damage and just the minimum level of crit % enhancement.

I've been happy with that setup - against high HP foes like the Pit Fiend, I keep them under a maximised Acid Fog or Acid Arrow, then blast away with the best available damage spells (Firewall for most foes, Cone of Cold for many devils, and Polar Ray for Arrietrikos)

[Arianrhod]

Considering we all know Firewalls damage capability is higher, the fact it can be combined with dance AND web; yes web, are what truly give it the edge. And its the same enhancements for fireball, cone of cold, otiluks, polar ray... and that if you max that enhancement, your highest level enhancement applies to Disentegrate.

Yet looking at Electrical and Acid, acids DoT capabilities are weaker, even if maxed.
Electrical while has similar damage capabilities, has quite a few limited spells. On the situation in which you find something Immune to Elec - or worse - hasted from it, your out of good DPS at that point.

You can combine wall of fire with web? How? Other fire spells burn the webs away, does wall of fire not do that?

[FluffyCalico]

Well, if we're assuming an elf summoning a wall of fire out of thin air, hard to argue realism.

.

If you have a hard time imagining that, and are unable to immerse into the world then you my friend are playing the wrong game.

[Merkinsal]

Since Mod 6 came out, I've kept all the Fire//Ice enhancements, but also added a moderate level of Acid//Elec to it (spending 7 AP to get +30% damage and just the minimum level of crit % enhancement.

I've been happy with that setup - against high HP foes like the Pit Fiend, I keep them under a maximised Acid Fog or Acid Arrow, then blast away with the best available damage spells (Firewall for most foes, Cone of Cold for many devils, and Polar Ray for Arrietrikos)

I too added Acid/Elec enhancements. I tried Acid Fog and liked it very much but dropped it because I did not see the slowing effect stack with Solid Fog. Maybe it does but I couldn't see it. However, the the Chain Lightning Spell is great for damage in the Vale area. I had to make a couple tradeoffs however. Did not get Sorcerer Energy of Dragonblooded lvl 4 was one trade off and I dont think I have Elemental Manipulation 4. But I can hit all three red names at once in Running with the Devils no matter where they are in relation to each other. The arcing effect is awesome. Perhaps more important for me, can cast it while jumping and running and it will always hit as long as I am facing in the general direction. I expect we will see more fire resistant mobs in future expansions, especially if we are going to Shattrahs home plane.

[Wizzly_Bear]

You can combine wall of fire with web? How? Other fire spells burn the webs away, does wall of fire not do that?

no, you cannot. firewall does burn away webs. scorching ray does not however since its targetted.

btw, acidfog + firewall = easily controlled safe cc oven for your enemies. dancing ball on top of it can be nice to, but sometimes they dance outside the fire and so arent taking much damage. for the devils and orthons i usually use acid fog + web. some damage + cc.

additionally, unless youre at least semi-specced for acid, solid fog > acid fog. solid fog imposes the same 20% concealment, but also gives all enemies a -2 to the damage of their attacks.

[Desteria]

no, you cannot. firewall does burn away webs. scorching ray does not however since its targetted.

btw, acidfog + firewall = easily controlled safe cc oven for your enemies. dancing ball on top of it can be nice to, but sometimes they dance outside the fire and so arent taking much damage. for the devils and orthons i usually use acid fog + web. some damage + cc.

additionally, unless youre at least semi-specced for acid, solid fog > acid fog. solid fog imposes the same 20% concealment, but also gives all enemies a -2 to the damage of their attacks.

YES you can actully

WoF only destroyes a Web if it goes through the center point of a WEB, IF you drop a WEB then place the WOF on the edge of it it will cook any thing around just fine ... what you dont do it target mod x cast web on him keeping him targeted cast WoF you just set both center points the same, NOW pre cast a web pull bunch of guys in to it they all get caught at the edge of the web target one of them and drop a wall across the side of the web weee webed up cooking baddies.