The Sarlona Shroud

[Yvonne_Blacksword]

I hate this whole subject...
I hate dirty tactics..

My guild is one of the smaller ones...we like it that way, tight knit, group of friends...fun dudes to hang with. We would be larger...but the orientation program is time consuming...uh...lol.

We never have enough on anymore to completely fill a raid. So we invite PUG members.

Or we join other guild's raids...

Or we join full PUG raids.

I, personally, have never completed the Shroud. I have run numerous ingredient collection runs.

I have no idea what part five looks like, though I have heard stories.

My tactics include staying alive, buffing the tanks--everyone, keepin the WF alive in part 4, sneaking in to hit the boss with anything I can while avoiding the blades, removing the gnolls. I cannot afford to watch every player and report infractions and prevent dirty tactics and keep myself and my charges alive while trying to assist in the de-hit-point-ization of the pit fiend...Anyone could pull a snarkity maneuver and I wouldn't know...as I have other things on my mind...

Once in a while I will hear.."oh look! he is bugged! get him" and wonder if someone threw dirt...How am I to know..the evidence is gone. It doesn't come up in any chat window...

The fact that what is happening is happening often enough for people to mention it.

The fact that people are putting up /LFM with clean run on it.

The fact that you have to ask if the "tactic" is being used...makes me reluctant to run it.

I figured, if I wait a while, the DEVs will fix it and then there will only be the "remember when" or "we can no longer do such"
comments are all that will remain of this.

It has not happened yet.

I start to wonder...is it dirty pool?
Is it on both sides?

Are people being forced to come up with dirty tactics to complete something due to snackity snack snack raid building tactics of the DEVs?

Raids should be dificult.
They should be challenging.
They should test our skills.
They should not require huge amounts of resources, lots of uber gear and things the normal player cannot attain, afford or even hope to find.

Is it us...causing this problem?
or is it them?

Why do we need an easy button?

[Kronik]

Being a PUG only player, I guess I really dont care how you run your raid or what tactics you use.

I neither agree or disagree with the way anyone decides to play. We all pay to play, so I say, do what ya like!

I will reserve judgment on all other players and guilds and let the game's programers decide if they want to allow these tatics or not.

It is not my place in this game to critize anyone as I for one am not perfect. I salute the players who refuse to use exploits, but

at the same time I dont look down on players who do!

[debo]

Being a PUG only player, I guess I really dont care how you run your raid or what tactics you use.

I neither agree or disagree with the way anyone decides to play. We all pay to play, so I say, do what ya like!

I will reserve judgment on all other players and guilds and let the games programers decide if they want to allow these tatics or not.

It is not my place in this game to critize anyone as I for one am not perfect. I salute the players who refuse to use exploits, but

at the same time I dont look down on players who do!

now that is well said

[ColsonJade]

I read the OP has saying, the Tactics are causes people to not play smart. And these is affecting game play across the board. I have to agree with it. But I think it also has to do with boredom. Take the reaver for example. Everyone has run it 100+ time (except for newer ppl) So everyong takes for granted that it will be done with easy. People goof off, are careless when getting a charge, just plain go afk .

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

Why do we need an easy button?

/hands Sarlona an easy button



Garth

[QuantumFX]

OP: I'm not defending the practice and while I agree with your sentements on the shroud the blame falls directly on the developers. Apparently, the issue you're referring to has been in the game since beta. There is no excuse for this. A large number of people will take the easy way if it's presented to them. It's human nature. It applies to developers (for being lazy about fixing this) as well as players (for exploiting it).

As for your comments on the lack of quality of players in other raids. This is a natural byproduct of player turnover and an evolving game. Add this to a veteran playerbase that's moving onto other games and viola - a recipe for disaster. Do you remember when Gianthold was just starting to lose it's newness? We got a buttload of people who were sucked into gianthold at level 10 and only ran reaver. They couldn't handle desert stuff nor the restless isles content. I try to regularly run all the raids and I'm constantly amazed by the number of "I've never run this quest" or "I only did this once for favor and don't remember this" comments I see.

[Raolin_Darksbane]

Hmm there seems to be 2 primary schools of thought here and i can see where both sides are coming from.

Is it respectable for me to try to be a better player and not participate in exploiting? Yes, I would say most definitely. At the same time though, kinda like Luka (how you been man?! ) i think it would be silly to leave a bag full of cash in the front yard and not expect someone to come along and take it. Human nature is human nature, and to expect otherwise is a lesson in futility and frustration...Once again im reminded of how I can only be responsible for myself.

Reading this whole thread has definitely made me smile at an otherwise boring day at work, but it did raise an interesting question in my mind to which im curious..

After the Titan raid finally became "beatable" by the masses....was the whole tactic of gathering everyone on the ledge at different points actually working as intended? I mean we all know how that worked. The group moves from place to place, the titan follows the group and stomps around pretty uselessly until we hit him with 6 pillars and then nix him.....

I can understand that there are in fact 'tactics' (and i use the word loosely) involved in that, but is that really how it was intended to work? I hope that wasnt the best the devs could do as far as designing that raid. I mean really, how many people DIDNT use that tactic? Not many, if any I'd wager. Basically, 3 people did the work while everyone stood around. I dont see much difference in that tactic and this shroud nonsense. Of course, i never saw anyone calling anyone out in regards to the Titan, possibly because that was the way is was intended to work, although if thats the case its sad imho.

I say we all roll new toons, gimp them to the best of our abilities, and go run some noob quests and see who can die first
Sounds like a good time there

[Xenaphon]

when you are running the same quest for the 17th time that day, you want to do it as fast as you can. Problem with Shroud is that it takes very long time ( I think they should remove about 5 portals on the first part). Even with a good group it takes an hour plus to run (not including time to put the party together). When I am playing one of my melee, I really do not mind doing it the old fashion way ( lately more groups seem to do it the old fashion way). On my cleric, I would rather save few plats but thats me. I think this is a game and people can play it anyway they enjoy( as long as they are not being a jerk to others).

[gfunk]

Until a short while ago, i didnt realize this was an issue as i didnt make it a habit of reading the forums. I think alot of casual players might be in the same boat. In the past i may have been guilty by way of ignorance (possibly a reason that my requests to join parties have sometimes been ignored.. or maybe i just suck), but i certainly try to play as clean of a game as possible. If the party leader has a stricter interpretation of how things should be run, i will follow his lead without question.

My participation in shroud runs has dropped quite alot over the last few weeks, as i have avoided questionable groups. Usually i comb through the list of members already in the LFM to see if they are members of guilds which have good reputations. I also have beeb generally avoiding groups which don't have at least a few number of members from any one guild (i notice that the more jumbled the group is, the more troubles may arise. Problem is that by the time i figure this out, the group is usually full. In the past i have avoided sending a tell inquiring about how the group would run as I had thought that any mention, even in pm's would be a violation. Looks like this is now OK. The friends list is also a great way to keep track of people to party (or not party) with. I would imagine that an examination of the nature of the forum members post's here would allow you to add several people to your list of like minded people to party with (if they list their characters). too bad it has to be so difficult.

With all this, I'm lucky to get 1 shroud completion run in per week..

[DelScorcho]

Quite honestly, I've pugged my share of Shroud runs, and solved it bugged and not bugged. The only difference between the two is that the non-bugged way takes much longer and expends much greater resources. The risk is about the same, as I have not seen a group succeed in 4 and fail in 5 since early on, as long as the clerics will expend sufficient resources to keep the party up.

The problem with the mission is it takes about 30 runs to make anything decent. If Big Red bugs, it takes 0 scrolls. If he doesn't, and the party members aren't careful, it could take 100. Put me down on the "I'm not going to drop because the party is adopted tactics that Turbine has never said were exploits", and I'm not going to run my cleric through the shroud unless I know I'm not going to have to spend way more resources than necessary. Also, the people who intend to drop if they don't agree with the tactics should state that at the outset, so the star can determine whether he would want someone else in the spot. Otherwise, it hurts the party.

[Cyr]

I read the OP has saying, the Tactics are causes people to not play smart. And these is affecting game play across the board. I have to agree with it. But I think it also has to do with boredom. Take the reaver for example. Everyone has run it 100+ time (except for newer ppl) So everyong takes for granted that it will be done with easy. People goof off, are careless when getting a charge, just plain go afk .

Hehe, have to agree with you on this May. Running the reaver 100+ times does make some people's eyes glaze over

And thanks for all the support guys and the restraint in responses it is really appreciated You all should check out the thread that KK put up also as it seems they are specifically targeting the shroud at this point (despite silly people trying to derail discussion with firewall and WW discusion ).

[DelScorcho]

KK thread is dead. Always fun when they close a thread started by a dev.

[Assio]

Dont take this the wrong way, because it's not meant insult you.

When I run shroud completion with my cleric, little to no resources are spent. I dont know if the reason is quality of party, quality of leadership, quality of healing, or some other factor.

I think this reflects the issue the OP was referring to regarding the dissolution of the skilled player.

There are ways to complete the raid without using lots of time or resources. Right off hand I know of 3 different methods that can be used to take down Harry (arraekitos) without using the easy button. All of them are fun and fast.

~Assio

[ICU]

I am in agreement with everything said here. I can say this for a fact though.. Any grp that I make, I form, I run. Will be all the correct way, no buggin him . Just doing it the right way. As far as some past grps, well that is in the past what matters is what is being done now!


I would also like to thank..Broodling for his comments to me today in game

[maddmatt70]

FWI.... Calling a whole server lame is just silly. and i will leave it at that so i don't get infraction points.

Not really the picture the OP paints is a pretty dysfunctional server.. It starts with the large guilds - the OP says there are at least 4-5 slightly large guilds that just do the cheats whereas on Khyber there are not really any large guilds that do it. Uniformly all the top flight guilds on Khyber, of which I mentioned just two, don't do the cheat or any cheats in the shroud. Alot of these guilds often have pugs in their groups and will pug as well. It filters down to the players in other guilds not that alot of those guilds wouldn't practice non cheese anyway. The atmosphere and the climate on Khyber is very different then Sarlona from the picture the OP draws. The presumption if you are pugging the Shroud on Khyber is non cheese whereas on Sarlona it sounds like the presumption is cheese. Really I blame these large guilds on Sarlona and the top flight guilds in particular for not taking a stand and doing the right thing, who cares if it cost you a few heal scrolls or if you are in a more casual playing guild you might have to repeat the shroud again because you failed part 4 - heck that is a part of the fun of the game..

[brshelton]

Not really the picture the OP paints is a pretty dysfunctional server.. It starts with the large guilds - the OP says there are at least 4-5 slightly large guilds that just do the cheats whereas on Khyber there are not really any large guilds that do it. Uniformly all the top flight guilds on Khyber, of which I mentioned just two, don't do the cheat or any cheats in the shroud. Alot of these guilds often have pugs in their groups and will pug as well. It filters down to the players in other guilds not that alot of those guilds wouldn't practice non cheese anyway. The atmosphere and the climate on Khyber is very different then Sarlona from the picture the OP draws. The presumption if you are pugging the Shroud on Khyber is non cheese whereas on Sarlona it sounds like the presumption is cheese. Really I blame these large guilds on Sarlona and the top flight guilds in particular for not taking a stand and doing the right thing, who cares if it cost you a few heal scrolls or if you are in a more casual playing guild you might have to repeat the shroud again because you failed part 4 - heck that is a part of the fun of the game..

These top flight guilds DO take a stand bro.

[Kalari]

I wasnt going to originally reply because ive yet to do the shroud, and probably wont till my guild is ready. For the main reason is due to such various passionate posts on this area its made me nervous to even think about setting foot in the place. As a new person its overwhelming to see how people get over playstyles, and while cheating is awful and lame as some put it, is it worth being at each others throats? From what ive read the last few days this one supposed great quest is truly dividing people down the line, from asking people to report others, to some wondering if their being watched. To others calling each other out as cheaters or non, its saddens me to see how an exploit that should be fixed is creating such havok between game players. And now that I type this im kinda thinking I dont want to do the shroud period.

It just seems to me that its up to the players to figure out what line they are going to cross and dont whine if your busted. I dont want to see the game develop into a blackspy vs whitespy type incident. (Mad magazine reference before anyone asks). I just wish something would be done by the company to take this out so it would die as an issue and this budding war between those who hold themselves up high in the game, and those who are cheezers would go away with it.

And im sorry as a happy Sarlona player I do not like our whole server being called lame because some people use an exploit, I dont care if the op said its done by the top 5 big guilds there are plenty other little guilds and players who arent guilded who follow the rules and have fun. We also run quests that arent the uber popular as well. So while we may not be as great as Khyber or whatever some of us are happy and do not think of our homebase as Lame.

[deon49er]

#1) If its able to be done then its fair game...

#2) Its to late to cry over spilled milk.. Funny thing about a cheat...It''s to late to fix what's already been broken. It only usually hurts those that didn't have the chance to CASH IN on the windfall when an exploit is fixed. Now you just made an even bigger divide in the players....the so called cheats continue to WIN, when they already have their items, then a fix goes in. Now all those who didnt get in on it or even know about it get left out. Case in point is the Tome pieces from the abbot series.

#3 Again if its able to be done...dont call it a cheat..Call it enginuity. IF the option is there i see ZERO reason not to use it. Only someone who feels the need to TRY and act as if they are better players use that CHEAT word. Let's see i can spend 1000's on heal scrolls/res scrolls and such or find a more resourceful way...Hummm ......Logic should anwser that question. ]]

#4 If you want to consider what is/was going on cheating then TAKE ALL ITEMS away form toons & fix the problem then everyone can start over trying to get the items...the way it was intended... If thats not gonna happen....Then **** that and leave it be, so that all will have the same EASY chance to get the good items. AGAIN ITS ONLY FAIR

[Lebrac]

#1) If its able to be done then its fair game...

#2) Its to late to cry over spilled milk.. Funny thing about a cheat...It''s to late to fix what's already been broken. It only usually hurts those that didn't have the chance to CASH IN on the windfall when an exploit is fixed. Now you just made an even bigger divide in the players....the so called cheats continue to WIN, when they already have their items, then a fix goes in. Now all those who didnt get in on it or even know about it get left out. Case in point is the Tome pieces from the abbot series.

#3 Again if its able to be done...dont call it a cheat..Call it enginuity. IF the option is there i see ZERO reason not to use it. Only someone who feels the need to TRY and act as if they are better players use that CHEAT word. Let's see i can spend 1000's on heal scrolls/res scrolls and such or find a more resourceful way...Hummm ......Logic should anwser that question. ]]

#4 If you want to consider what is/was going on cheating then TAKE ALL ITEMS away form toons & fix the problem then everyone can start over trying to get the items...the way it was intended... If thats not gonna happen....Then **** that and leave it be, so that all will have the same EASY chance to get the good items. AGAIN ITS ONLY FAIR

this is funny... i would GLADLY give up all the ingreadients i have got from runs where a cheat was used... out of 80+ larges i would give back maybe 10 max probably more like 5...... just because you can't find a better way to do it other then abuseing game flaws does not mean that others can not... trust me in guild runs i use maybe a total of 10 scrolls in the hole quest but thats because i choose to because i like to save mana and almost always finish part 4 and part 5 with mana.... so again all your doing is limiting your self and your ability to lean how to overcome by useing game flaws that are not intended to be in the game. this quest does not take 1000's of scrolls maybe the 1st few times it was done it did because you have to learn the better ways to do it. but now usualy takes nothing or very little to do.

also for useing this in the shroud.. your taking all the fun out of the funnest fight in the game... its always interesting to actualy do this fight since as eveyone knows in part 5 tehre is very little chance of a total whipe just depends on how much ppl want to spend on doing it.

[MOUSETRAP]

I never cn part 2 in the shrould played without tactics
and iv compleated the shroud 10 or more times with each of my chrs
i never even questioned it till now... id realy like to c it played as it was ment two!
4-5 iv played both ways and it is much better game when u play it right!
but most of the time its played with the tactics!!