The Sarlona Shroud

[Cyr]

Okay people for those of you who do not know me I am Cyr a very old school player who took a 4 month hiatus after the abbot debacle. I came back over a month ago with the shroud having been out for some time. I thought I would be playing catch up with most players on the server. With time for about 10-15 completions per toon these people must know the quest inside and out. I get on and hear about all these uber GS items that people have crafted. I meet some people who have multiple weapons made on single toons. First few days I run two shrouds with some guildies leading pick up the major points real fast. BTW AWESOME QUEST DEVS Then I get a few more toons ready so I have no worries about everyone being on timer. Soon enough I have more toons then some of my guildies ready (not uncommon for me ). So I start pugging...

What is the first thing I see. Right off the bat? I know all you people know what I am talking about but forum rules prohibit me from spelling it out. I find it pretty lame. We had a pretty easy time beating the quest, why do other people need to do this? Then I find out some of my guildies are doing the same thing as a habit ;( Thankfully my guild leader was in agrement with me that it should not be done in raids led by our guild and the practice pretty much stopped by those few who were doing it.

But remember I have so many toons ready that I am pugging alot and most of the party leaders say nothing about their 'tactic' untill the last second. So I can jump out and be labeled a jerk for abandoning them or sit back mark their names down for future reference. Clearly not a great choice there.

Now, nearly a month later I have a very clear picture of what is going on in the Sarlona Shroud. There is one guild that I have NEVER seen use this 'tactic' themselves and again I think all of you know who I am talking about, but I still see some of their prominent members being stuck in similiar situations as I am in pug groups. Some of them are very vocal about it, some are not. I was rather quiet about it for the most part, but now I feel something must change.

I say this because after the ~40-60 shroud completions I have run (the vast majority in pug) I have seen this 'tactic' used more times then I have not. I could list off five guilds that pretty much only use this 'tactic'. These are not minor or small guilds...nor are they alone but I could not say these other guilds pretty much only use the tactic since I have not run enough with them or had numerous guild members of theirs confirm this to me. I do not want people speculating who does this who does that...most people know and we don't need to point fingers at anyone specifically.

It has gotten to a point that I am asking people before I join a shroud how they are going to do it. I forgot to ask today when someone telled me asking me to join Guess what happened? They used 'special' tactics on the fourth and fifth part. After it did not take on the fifth part they tried using ANOTHER 'tactic' and when that did not take they quit.

This is why I care about this. It is not so much that people are not 'playing as the dev's intended' it is that people are making themselves worse players and encouraging poor play. People are making groups that are not even close to well put together for this quest. They do not understand the basic tactics that work. There are still people who think that this quest is only completable without using the tactic if you have 3 clerics, 7 barbarians, a bard, and a caster. This quest really demonstrates when run w/o using the tactic who is really contributing and who is just along for the ride. Have too many people who are just not willing to bring arrows, buy wands, buy scrolls, or buy the proper weapons and you really notice it quickly.

I see this resulting in an overall decline in competency in other high level content as well. Reaver raids are incredibly sloppy now. When I left the game a failure due to some NOOB deciding to shoot the giant with his bow and drag agro to the clerics was rare. Now I see that type of thing all the time. I see less than half the time that the giant is debuffed, even with 4 arcanes in party. I see multiple fighters running at/around/past the giant making getting charges much more difficult. It is like the player base has been given a switch that went to lazy with this 'tactic' and they are approaching the rest of the game in the same manner.

I know that alot of the people who use this tactic don't think they are playing badly when they go into the shroud. They look at their kill count from chasing around trog's in part 1 and think they are uber. They justify using the tactic as 'cost savings'. They also do not think it is a big deal...they even bad mouth people who say they can not particapate if they use these 'tactics' and are forced to quit when the 'tactic' is talked about after part 4.

I am calling everyone out who uses this tactic habitually. You need to go back to the drawing board on this quest and really figure it out (or listen to some of the peps who acutally run it straight up regularly) so you do not have to use major num. pots everytime and 100's of heal scrolls. You need to run it like it was meant to be run (FYI it is alot more fun) and help educate those who do not understand it.

So there it is. I am calling out MOST OF THE SERVER. If you think you are uber then prove it. You already have all the toys you should have had to run the quest straight up to get (with the associated learning curve and loss of resources) so it should be easy as pie to do straight up.

PS: I am asking any posters to kindly not to flame specific people or groups or describe in any detail the 'tactics' which I am talking about since pretty much anyone who would be affected by this post clearly knows what I am talking about. I would also kindly ask the Cube to note how careful I have been to avoid doing the same thing and not burn the thread with the inevitable flamers particularly since this 'tactic' is being used in by my informal count the past two weeks of lfm's I have seen up for shroud completions over 90% of the time.

[Thrann]

Iam behind you 100% bud on this,We all know what you are talking about, so please ppl dont play stupid about this post, it is very true and also very sad to see great ppl on our server, taking this acting on doing it 24/7 , The shroud is not a hard raid and it is very fun,(one of the best raids out atm),and it is sad to see ppl running it like this..We finally got a raid that has all party member being active in the raid, playing there role,which we all love, but really think about this people are you really"playing your role" on part 4/5, i have to say its hard to fill a group to beat this raid the right way..Why does it have to come to this..?



~Thrann

[debo]

I agree it is cheese... but if people want to do it...let them do it. It is what it is. I put more emphasis on turbine fixing the problem. Give people a mile...they will take it. Most people won't turn down the free apple when it is dangled in front of them. It was the same thing back in the day with the abbot exploit... and the "said" guild didn't want to exploit it then. Some people like the challenge... some people want the easy way out. I have a hard time faulting people who just take what is given to them.

What did I just say? Not sure lol.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

Well said Cyr. It amazes me how many times I join a pug and discover this is what the leader is planning to do. It ruined the game for me when the Abbot raid was being bugged (and I actually left the game for a few months as a result) and it's ruining the game now. I'm know most people won't agree with me on this - but I personally would prefer to see the whole raid closed until it's fixed, and then at least the people who are doing it legitimately would be on the same footing as those who are exploiting.

There's plenty other stuff to do in the game other than exploit a raid.

Garth

[BigNastyMP]

Well said Cyr. This has become quite the touchy topic these days. I want to make absolutely clear that I do not subscribe to this tactic. I unequivocally denounce the use of this tactic.

Luka, you're point is valid, I let people do whatever they want with regards to this game. That said, let the people who dislike this tactic come out against it and not be made to feel like they are out of line for calling out the cheaters. I have no problem faulting people "who just take what is given to them."

The best thing we can do as individuals to combat this problem is to lead our own non-cheese shroud runs and make it clear from the beginning that we will be running it legit. Keep fighting the good fight Cyr, you have my support.

[Mockduck]

yup.

[Dexxaan]

Although I agree with you in many ways there are many parameters you left out, but thats ok and understood, you have been away and soon enough you'll see what server-life has been since merger.

My point of view is shared with Debo.

I recomend you ask if Tactic used or not, and simply walk away if you don't like it's use. ( I do the same with "Hero" Tactic in Dragon Raid...gotta ask how we are killing her.)


But don't feel too compelled to indoctrinate peeps to your way of thinking and never forget your circumstances, time availability, guild support (and quality) may be quite different than those you are trying to "Enlighten".

[soupertc]

I hate usin cheese in any quest. I'd rather burn resources and feel good about it then get off cheap. But I don't judge and I don't tell people how to play the game either. Last thing we need in this game is moral police.....cause I doubt any of you have not used an exploit of some kind or other. I remember seeing alot of people going in and out of Litany before the fix. Couple people got an Abott completion or 3 or 5 before the fixed timer and little exploit too.

Like I said I hate cheese, anyone whose grouped with me will back me up...but I think it's the pot calling the kettle black when it comes to threads like these.

But once again I must agree with OP.....Cheese sucks.

[Olithian]

Iam behind you 100% bud on this,We all know what you are talking about, so please ppl dont play stupid about this post, it is very true and also very sad to see great ppl on our server, taking this acting on doing it 24/7 , The shroud is not a hard raid and it is very fun,(one of the best raids out atm),and it is sad to see ppl running it like this..We finally got a raid that has all party member being active in the raid, playing there role,which we all love, but really think about this people are you really"playing your role" on part 4/5, i have to say its hard to fill a group to beat this raid the right way..Why does it have to come to this..?



~Thrann

Yep, ran it last night with you 'the right way' and honestly it was the first time I had run it like that. Challenging, yes! And a lot of fun.

[Whargoul]

What about 'tactics' in shroud part 2. Is the monster behavior really working as intended, or are the 'tactics' used there a little cheesy?

-Whargoul

[esoitl]

every Shroud run i have done on Sarlona uses 'tactics' for part 2 but luckily i have never grouped using tactics in 4 or 5
if you're opposed i would strongly suggest asking the leader politely how they plan on taking on parts 4 and 5 and if you don't agree don't join

if they do after saying they won't i wouldn't hesitate to leave making it clear you don't feel it's right or neccessary

the same goes for me with using solvers. while i hate the idea and can often do Shroud and Reaver puzzles without in the same time it's rampant and impossible to control so i grin and bear it half the time. it's nice of the devs to put elements of chance like this into the game and reward players who are capable of putting some thought into the puzzles but is completely ruined by solvers......
it's sad when people act like they are king **** and an uber puzzle solver when they are cheating the whole time..... i wish there was some way to eliminate it but there just isn't


as for the Shroud 'tactics' every Shroud run i ever do, even if the 'tactics' aren't used i send in a bug report about them. same with some other quests where 'tactics' are used. will it ever lead to them being fixed??? who knows
i assume by now with all my bug reports the DEVs know of these 'tactics' so here's to hoping they get fixed and the quests can only be run the way they were meant to

[Zenako]

Well it is not that hard to do it normally anyway (easy - no, but in no way impossible). As for certain game tactics like in part 2, the characters are also constrained in what they can do by the game engine as well. Some of those game features work both ways so they in fact should fall more to the game designers to deal with than to self police to our detriment. I cannot list how many times I have had movement, attacks or spells blocked by unseen game geometry, sometimes to my characters death. Or the character who has no problem moving up and over 3 foot obstacles in their path, but gets hopelessly stuck on a 3 inch high bump in the path.

As for part 3 and puzzles. Don't have a solver (could find one easy enough if I wanted). What I do do is just try and solve any puzzle in my room and let people know I am doing it the natural way. I have solved them a decent percent of the time anyway before someone comes to the door. Hardest part is sometimes actually only hitting the spots you want to hit. They should make the dots like the floor tiles that you click in many quests. Would really reduce the impact of hitches or lag and hitting the wrong or multiple spots.

[Baconstrip]

I have seen people every single time use the tactics in part 2 in the sw and ne. Are these cheats or is it something the game set up for us to use. People might not agree with doing part 2 that way. Im not saying people should use these tactics in part 2, 4, or 5 but it happens and you can only decide not to do it yourself.

[Baconstrip]

If you haven't noticed people are usually trying to find clerics to run the raid. I have been on several pug groups using my cleric and never complain in using my resources. I have seen certain groups not use their clerics because they are sick and tired of spending money to supply their clerics. I constantly get tells to join the raid when I'm on my cleric and some people offer to help support the clerics. I don't ask for money or donations. The one problem I might have is if people do it the right way they should help support the effort. I did the raid on elite and someone gave up 300 mana pots and heal scrolls like crazy. It was much appreciated when he did that. So what I am trying to say is if your a person who is tanking most of the time in these raids and are not playing your cleric or you don't have a cleric you better be helping out or in my opinion you need to just deal with people doing it whatever way they do it. I dont support or nor am I against it.

[BadDoc]

hmm exploit coalition much? no seriously i heard someone mention that term....just cant remember who?

[deon49er]

#1) If its able to be done then its fair game...

#2) Its to late to cry over spilled milk.. Funny thing about a cheat...It''s to late to fix what's already been broken. It only usually hurts those that didn't have the chance to CASH IN on the windfall when an exploit is fixed. Now you just made an even bigger divide in the players....the so called cheats continue to WIN, when they already have their items, then a fix goes in. Now all those who didnt get in on it or even know about it get left out. Case in point is the Tome pieces from the abbot series.

#3 Again if its able to be done...dont call it a cheat..Call it enginuity. IF the option is there i see ZERO reason not to use it. Only someone who feels the need to TRY and act as if they are better players use that CHEAT word. Let's see i can spend 1000's on heal scrolls/res scrolls and such or find a more resourceful way...Hummm ......Logic should anwser that question. ]]

#4 If you want to consider what is/was going on cheating then TAKE ALL ITEMS away form toons & fix the problem then everyone can start over trying to get the items...the way it was intended... If thats not gonna happen....Then **** that and leave it be, so that all will have the same EASY chance to get the good items. AGAIN ITS ONLY FAIR

[Lebrac]

#1) If its able to be done then its fair game...

#2) Its to late to cry over spilled milk.. Funny thing about a cheat...It''s to late to fix what's already been broken. It only usually hurts those that didn't have the chance to CASH IN on the windfall when an exploit is fixed. Now you just made an even bigger divide in the players....the so called cheats continue to WIN, when they already have their items, then a fix goes in. Now all those who didnt get in on it or even know about it get left out. Case in point is the Tome pieces from the abbot series.

#3 Again if its able to be done...dont call it a cheat..Call it enginuity. IF the option is there i see ZERO reason not to use it. Only someone who feels the need to TRY and act as if they are better players use that CHEAT word. Let's see i can spend 1000's on heal scrolls/res scrolls and such or find a more resourceful way...Hummm ......Logic should anwser that question. ]]

#4 If you want to consider what is/was going on cheating then TAKE ALL ITEMS away form toons & fix the problem then everyone can start over trying to get the items...the way it was intended... If thats not gonna happen....Then **** that and leave it be, so that all will have the same EASY chance to get the good items. AGAIN ITS ONLY FAIR

this is funny... i would GLADLY give up all the ingreadients i have got from runs where a cheat was used... out of 80+ larges i would give back maybe 10 max probably more like 5...... just because you can't find a better way to do it other then abuseing game flaws does not mean that others can not... trust me in guild runs i use maybe a total of 10 scrolls in the hole quest but thats because i choose to because i like to save mana and almost always finish part 4 and part 5 with mana.... so again all your doing is limiting your self and your ability to lean how to overcome by useing game flaws that are not intended to be in the game. this quest does not take 1000's of scrolls maybe the 1st few times it was done it did because you have to learn the better ways to do it. but now usualy takes nothing or very little to do.

also for useing this in the shroud.. your taking all the fun out of the funnest fight in the game... its always interesting to actualy do this fight since as eveyone knows in part 5 tehre is very little chance of a total whipe just depends on how much ppl want to spend on doing it.

[MOUSETRAP]

I never cn part 2 in the shrould played without tactics
and iv compleated the shroud 10 or more times with each of my chrs
i never even questioned it till now... id realy like to c it played as it was ment two!
4-5 iv played both ways and it is much better game when u play it right!
but most of the time its played with the tactics!!

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

#3 Again if its able to be done...dont call it a cheat..Call it enginuity. IF the option is there i see ZERO reason not to use it.

Other than the reason that if the GMs catch you they'll ban your account? Other than the reason that doing part 5 for real is actually far far more fun and rewarding? Other than the reason that the devs will fix this bug eventually and then you'll be hosed..?

EDIT: good to group with you earlier tonight Cyr. Very smooth run!

Garth

[Dragonhyde]

A smooth run with Cyr? hmmm he musta not had enough mana to keep the grease on the floor