The Sarlona Shroud

[debo]

Other people should do as they feel comfortable with when it comes to this, but those who do insist on bugging should be warned that I got some pretty strong support in PM's from people saying I should be reporting people whenever I know about a bug...so even if I'm not going to do it there are some pretty strong feelings out there about this so watch your step or you might want to reconsider the risk/benefits of exploiting.

sounds merry

[Dexxaan]

3) Not that you asked but I know people are curious, I have yet to report anyone since posting that I would if they wasted my time by lying to me about exploiting when I asked them. I have not joined over 50 groups since they were exploiting just since I have posted about exploiting, most were very clear to me that they were...in some cases even telling me exactly how they were going to do so. If I was on a crusade...well I probably could have gotten quite a few people banned or suspended. But I have made it clear that I will only report people for lying to me about it then wasting my time by having me join and having to drop part way.

5) And for those thinking that I am advocating everyone to report people willy nilly I am not. I personally am going to in certain very limited cases spelled out pretty clearly in my previous post. Other people should do as they feel comfortable with when it comes to this, but those who do insist on bugging should be warned that I got some pretty strong support in PM's from people saying I should be reporting people whenever I know about a bug...so even if I'm not going to do it there are some pretty strong feelings out there about this so watch your step or you might want to reconsider the risk/benefits of exploiting.

Thats it.

I feel like I´m going to puke on this guys loot, with all this High and Mighty " I´m so self-righteous and supported by so many PM´s , and I´ve warned about the specifics so watch your step, and I should be reporting people whenever I know about a bug......so even if I´m not going to do it" ()


Dude I have completed the run enough times in the "Clean-Pure-and Politically Correct" way you are so supportive of and I´m not impressed by the difficulty of completion; on the other hand, I am impressed of how much patience, effort, resoures wasted and babysitting it takes to get the average PUG to not screw it up! These are usually caused by, but not limited too, incompetence, poor play style, people who don´t read party chat nor listen to voice chat, etc....

So as far as I´m concerned (due to my and many other´s limited play time-and the RL things we don´t do in order to play the game) I´ll state the following.

A) The Shroud is not a RAID in my opinion. (And I have a lot of people supporting me with PM´s regarding this....! ) There is no Uber-loot at the end of the rainbow and all you really are receiving is some XP´s and a roll on an extra 3 chests when you omplete it......woop dee doo. I would call it nothing more than an hour long Easter Egg Hunt and Crafting Grind.

B) You, I, nor ANYONE who is not on the Turbine payroll is going to POLICE and or Regularize this game. It´s Turbine´s product, their business and all of ours to choose to pay or not. So unless you show me your turbine-badge I suggest you take your "Taking a bite out of crime" jingle out the door.
Of course I would support you and all of us reporting these important bugs as a priority so that Turbine can fix ASAP.

C) You ARE on a crusade, yet you pretend you are not. Threatening yet not doing anything about it.....is not a very effective way to retake the Holyland bubba.

D) You have shown clearly that your WASTED GAME TIME is what is causing this, and like I explained earlier it is exatly the same issue that is causing people to use the Unholy-Dirty and Politically incorrect method that many of us dislike.

My Advice?

Relax, play the game and enjoy it, report all the bugs you like to the PROVIDERS and if you are´n´t satisfied with that then get a badge on your white-unstained gowns. (I´m assuming you don´t allow for part II exploits either....; ´cause if you do this whole Crusade of yours is as valid as Jimmy Hoffa´s Burial site)

P.S.: To all who read this and don´t see me in game tonight...I´ve probably gotten reported and banned as this guys 1st Crusade victim!

[Kronik]

Not that it matters at all, but I have 3 completed GS items atm. A tier 3 Fire/Fire/Fire Googles, a set of Mineral Googles, and a set of concordant opp. googles. I pretty much only run completion runs and had to trade for some larges due to a bad streak of horn pulling. Oh and thanks for the chance to loot brag

Thanks for the benefit of the doubt, and while I am calling shenanigans, I’m not trying to flame your crusade. I see your point in wanting more challenge from the game. And I understand that there are others in the game who share your opinion. And while I could care less how other people play, it does get annoying having to argue with people on this issue before every Shroud run nowadays. The Dev's already fixed the create undead scrolls to make things harder, so they obviously know. If you have a problem with that then tell them. But instead you have cause a divide of sorts amongst players and guilds and have created a distraction in a lot of peoples good times.

Why it does matter that you have 3 completed items, is because it seems like you are only now crying foul after getting what you wanted in the exact same way you are complain about.

Why did you only start this post after completing 3 shroud items? Why not post immediately when you said you saw the problem. 40-60 runs and 3 completed items later sounds like you might be a slight bit hypocritical here.

I mean you no disrespect here, but I call things like I see them. I have no problem running things your way if everyone in the group agrees on it.

[Oxvon]

I missed out on the whole abbot looting thing so I got to play some catch-up...

[Falcone]

I think we're all frustrated with the same basic thing: multiple bugs in end-game content that's stayed online for months. Turbine has only dipped a toe into the discussion and has mostly failed to provide clear information even to the forum population, much less the entire player population. As such, here we are thrashing an issue (and each other) when the bugs have long-since been reported.

I make the best effort I can to run quests within the rules as I understand them, including parts 1-5 of the Shroud. That's my personal preference for my own reasons, and we each have our own approach. I hate that we have to discuss this at all, especially in party, each time we start the quest, and the responsibility obviously lies with Turbine to fix that. While bugs exist, the whole party has to be in agreement about how they're going to run the raid. Unfortunately, if 1 person in the party of 12 decides to exploit even in a party that has agreed not to, it's tough to prevent, and now you have 11 people in a difficult situation. It's all well and good to tell us we should recall out and start over without that person, report them if we're feeling ambitious, or boot them from the party, but those are all either bad options or simply not possible.

What do I want from Turbine? Fix it yesterday. Until then, either close it, or come out with a definitive statement about what is punishable. I understand the hesitancy to close what is likely the most-played content in the game right now, but leaving it open is a pretty strong statement of preference and even approval of 100's or 1000's of players running the content with these bugs in place.

What do I want from players? Be honest about your preferences, and what you will, and will not do, once you've joined a group. We all want to be in groups made up of 12 individuals who will feel good about how we run the quest, and will see no need to report anything about each other. If you join a group that plans to use a tactic you don't agree with, don't be a jerk about it, just drop and find another group. If you join a group and plan to use a tactic they don't agree with, same advice, just drop and find another group. Take whatever position you like on bugs, exploits etc, but don't force it on 11 other people. If you form and lead a group, be honest, consistent, and stick to whatever you and the group decides.

The most valuable resource we have in the game is not plat, large ingredients, mana pots or anything like that: it's our time. The existence of these bugs and the possibility of one ruining it for everybody, is at best wasting an awful lot of everyone's time, and at worst driving wedges between a lot of people and making the game less fun for everyone.

Donjuanker/Hrothskuldr/Kythereia/Moradin/Falcone
Officer in Redemption

[BigNastyMP]

Cyr, Bruttus and Kronik, I like you all. Please, we have started reading too much into what we all say. This is an emotional topic, we all feel strongly about it, but you three especially are good players with so many similar beliefs that it's weird to see this arguement get taken to such a negative level.

Can we just agree to disagree and move on?

A more important question... Why aren't you three in NSR yet?

[thisgamesull]

oops almost started a flame war

[Dexxaan]

Can we just agree to disagree and move on?
I agree that we disagree, but I will not stand for preaching and policing by my fellow gamer. And I will combat all things that as annoying as they can be.....push me away from the game and forums I enjoy.

A more important question... Why aren't you three in NSR yet?

Hehe regarding this question....your time will come....you will be absorbed like many others.....you guys are just a tougher nut to crack! Muahahaha!

P.S. Very true.....this subject can be a ball buster and enough has been said.

[Kronik]

Cyr, Bruttus and Kronik, I like you all. Please, we have started reading too much into what we all say. This is an emotional topic, we all feel strongly about it, but you three especially are good players with so many similar beliefs that it's weird to see this arguement get taken to such a negative level.

Can we just agree to disagree and move on?

Agreed!

[Cyr]

Cyr, Bruttus and Kronik, I like you all. Please, we have started reading too much into what we all say. This is an emotional topic, we all feel strongly about it, but you three especially are good players with so many similar beliefs that it's weird to see this arguement get taken to such a negative level.

Can we just agree to disagree and move on?

A more important question... Why aren't you three in NSR yet?

Lol, I'm in a guild already bud sorry

Falcone, excellent post I agree wholehardly with almost everything you said. This is Turbine's screw up first and foremost.

Agreeing to disagree though, nope not when it directly affects me and those I play with. I do not join parties and preach, I politly send tells before joining. People say yes or no or nothing. They say no I join we run quest and we all have fun. They say yes I say "good luck on the quest". It is instead those who think that they have a right to exploit that are forcing it upon others. I know that you have been in groups where an exploit was brought up MID-QUEST and someone has said they are not comfortable with it and people basically ignored them (or said get lost etc.). What amazes me constantly is that people think that they should not be banned for this. They are doing an exploitable offense then telling those who do not want to do it when they spring it on them that they are in the wrong. I know you want peace, but peace at the price of a large number of players being banned if Turbine decides that their only option is to crack down is not a solution.

[Olithian]

A very interesting thing happened yesterday doing a Shroud run. Got to Harry's place (part 4) and after we met his friends he made his appearance (smoke and fire, very flashy grand entrance). Fighters did what fighter's do best and ran out to greet him,weapons in hand. Now I have done this part with my fighter numerous times, running in, beating on him, getting ripped up by the blades and whimpering back to my chosen cleric, rinse and repeat. Well this time, he just stood there. Didn't spin around, looking at each of us and throwing fire, he just sat there. Nothing special was done, so I figured he must have been in awe of our totally awesome uberness.

We get to part 5 and it was decided early on that we would use the spells we have been given. So we summon a few friends to join our party and make life easier. Well, Harry decided he didn't like our friends and sent them home early and decided he had had enough of our company as well. After dodging a lot of fire and doing a lot of running we were successful, but our totally awesome uberness had not impressed him this time around and he made us prove our worth.

So, to me, this proves that not every time you pull every trick it will work.

[Baron]

They are doing an exploitable offense then telling those who do not want to do it when they spring it on them that they are in the wrong. I know you want peace, but peace at the price of a large number of players being banned if Turbine decides that their only option is to crack down is not a solution.

I no longer run the Shroud. Not worth getting my account banned for not reporting the fighter who hit his elly clickie or grouping with folks who score points with Turbine for doing so.

I quit trying the abbot. I never like Nintendo games anyway.

In about 2 weeks I expect I shall do something else with my money.

Turbine has several options.

One - They can fix the quest. Telling casters or folks who built their earth elly items "Sorry, we gave you the spells/items but we are gonna have to ask you not to use them or we are gonna ban you because we are too stupid to fix our own code" is dumb.

Two - They can close the quest. May cause embarressment for some coders but if I ran Turbine they would have been fired a long time ago anyway. (I do code so I do have some idea of how easy this would have been caught).

Three - They can lets folks use all their spells and their Elly clickies items and let Harry decide if he wants to pay attention or not. Folks who disagree with this method can form thier own "We are the Champions" group and send tells to Turbine on the "Other" group which Turbine will then ignore because it is Turbines screwup in the first place.

Lets remember that there is no Raid loot at the end of this and Turbine can set the sack limit on those chest as they see fit so who cares how many times the final run is hit. Its not like the first three parts are not ran over and over and over anyway and I do not see Turbine doing anything about that.

For those who keep flashing little snippets from tells that Devs have emailed you and those who quote some words from a webpage that Turbine maintains for the lawyers in them just remember you can say all the users agreed to follow what is written there but in the real world most users might know there is a Terms of Service they agreed to to log into the game but they have never read it and never head of any other documents from Turbine and they do not care.

They think if the game lets me do it without me tinkering with something them it is ok, and they should be right. If that is not the case then it is Turbines fault. I think they are right

In the end most of the players on the servers will never read any of this. Turbine needs to think of them, they are the paying customer.

[Mr._Dna]

Has anyone actually heard of someones account being banned over this? I mean, seriously? This stuff is so widespread that if they really started cracking down, they'd probably kill 5-10% of their subs. No chance. Bottom line: hopefully this bug will be fixed in Mod 7. Until then, let's all lighten up. I personally agree that it's a lot more fun to run the quest straight up, but I haven't completed it a billion times like a lot of you guys. I feel like the comparisons to part 2 "tactics" are somewhat valid, but it is a bit different. Yeah, you are circumventing a quest mechanic but at least you still have to fight all the mini-bosses and they fight back. I'm sorry, but turning a big, bad raid boss into a glorified punching bag is just BORING.

[Kronik]

Has anyone actually heard of someones account being banned over this? I mean, seriously? This stuff is so widespread that if they really started cracking down, they'd probably kill 5-10% of their subs. No chance. Bottom line: hopefully this bug will be fixed in Mod 7. Until then, let's all lighten up. I personally agree that it's a lot more fun to run the quest straight up, but I haven't completed it a billion times like a lot of you guys. I feel like the comparisons to part 2 "tactics" are somewhat valid, but it is a bit different. Yeah, you are circumventing a quest mechanic but at least you still have to fight all the mini-bosses and they fight back. I'm sorry, but turning a big, bad raid boss into a glorified punching bag is just BORING.

Nicely said and I agree!

I honestly could care less. My point is that a lot of the people who are calling this an exploit, have already exploited it to the point that they no longer need any ingredients. Now all of a sudden they are so worried about getting 1/2 the server banned. I do not now or ever before care how people play and will gladly play how the rest of the party agrees on. I also do not care when people post complaints about an exploit either. But where I get drawn in is when the loudest complainers are the ones who have already done what they are complaining about. You will notice most of the people complaining are the ones who have run this quest numerous times using the very "so called exploit" they are talking about.

I do admire the OPs way about starting quests and asking beforehand. And I do agree that if everyones agrees not to do it, then they should not do it. I I'm calling out everyone and anyone who is complaing after the fact, and not the OP in specific.

It’s not the topic I’m posting about. You see, it's the principal. There's principalities in the whole thing Smokey!

[Qzipoun]

Come on everyone, less forum posting, more DDO playing

[debo]

Come on everyone, less forum posting, more DDO playing

You mean less work and more forum posting?

[Zenako]

You mean less work and more forum posting?

Yah...exactly....forum posting drops to almost nothing when play options are available.....

[Dragonhyde]

Sad part is when people join and are told that the group does not want the easy way out. Then they ignore that fact and do what they want to do. Have been in several shrouds where this has happened and all it does is lower my grouping pool for future shrouds.

[spyderwolf]

well i hate to be the bad guy and call out a little bs but a seem to rermeber showing a particular ranger how to do the queen about a year ago when its wasnt generally known how to low man it... let people play they way they want. jsut dont continue foward if you dont like how they do it. and to be honest soulless is the only guild i have seen that consistently doesnt use any "tactics" as the op puts it. i ve seen ever other major guild ( including my own ) use tactics that might be the ones referred too. /shrug but what someone else does really doesnt bother me cause at the end of the day i personally dont care.

[dnothing]

hmm.. ok well i agree and disagree... with a lot of this.. hard to say where to start and where to finish, but this is how i see it...

the raid can be beaten by using many tactics, some choose tactics that are considered an exploit(or bug), if you will... some are considered the ''fair'' way. i, so far, have been able to beat the shroud in basically any circumstance, some with groups come prepared some in groups that do not(based on what they have experienced)..... me and my guild have ran it several ways..... as have i done the same with many pugs.... when you get to the point of ''you know you can beat it with your eye's closed'', its best to do it the most cost efficient way(imo).

if the game allows you to do its not cheating nor is it exploiting... turbine has allowed it by releasing soemthign that well, basically, isn't finished... they don't like evidently, but they opened it up KNOWING-ly that it was not perfect... and yet they, and many others complain about it... it isn't my fault, it isn't anybodies fault but turbines, if/when they fix it, i will be fine with that, the easiest way just gets taken away and a new way will be made, whether its the legit way, or a ''new tactic''.

so yes it CAN be more fun to do it legit-ly, but it cost's more, at least in MOST situations... ill join a group that is doing it either way it DOSE NOT BOTHER ME(i know i can handle the pressure).. but when im running the show, it will be done my way or the way of me and my friends that are in the party(tactics of many kinds allowed, generally). now i enjoy learning new ways to do things, but im also a fan of doing it the easiest way possible(A. im lazy, and B. why waste my guildies/friends, and my own resources when it isn't necessary) use as little as possible...

we (my guild) recently picked up a newer guy and his wife to the game... he absolutely enjoys running EVERYTHING the way it was meant to be ran.. when he is in the party that is the way its done, out of respect for them and the entire guild. i never say no to this cuz it keeps us all sharp as a heavy pick... lol.. but again i generally prefer to do it quick... after all some stuff does become a grind... and thats when a game can reach the point of boring...

so i say do it how you want and as like religion do not force your way upon anybody else.. do it the way of the guild or leader you are joining, OR start your own run, and do it YOUR way.

i have been enjoying the game for well over a year, very few people i do not like, and i am open to ANYTHING. just because somebody prefers one way doesn't mean they aren't willing to learn another.

well i think thats all from me.... i know theres a lot more to be said but I'm tired of typing..

so take it easy all, and just have fun the best way you know how.