Gather round! Lets talk about exploits!

[Wizzly_Bear]

I will PM this too, hopefully to get an answer...


So does this mean "speed run", "no zerging", "newbs welcome", "experienced players only", and the like are ALSO banned from the LFM? None of these notes "recruit specific classes for specific quests" (Komunity Kobold's OWN WORDS here), so are they allowed?

Serious question here, because I'm sick of the inconsistancies.

It's either OK to post an LFM comment, or it's not. This cherry-picking is getting old.

qft

[Durack]

I think the (report bug) would be better served for reporting and fixing bugs..... http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...=1#post1699897or take a peek at this as I don't want to multi post the same point

[Pharaz]

I only know a bug is a bug when it bugs/annoys me. Like when the ladders were fixed so I now get stuck. They worked fine before. Now I get stopped on many ladders. If I can jump above that point I'm fine. Also most once stopped if I stop moving forward then press to continue up I start moving again past the part that stopped me. Once again I didn't have this problem before the ladders were fixed.

I just hope the definition of an exploit isn't as bad as it was in EverQuest. There it seemed to be if you did anything other then using a spell or weapon to give yourself an advantage you were exploiting. You moved behind a tree to keep a monster from hitting you with an arrow? Thats an exploit. Sorry no tactics allowed.

[query]

I only know a bug is a bug when it bugs/annoys me. Like when the ladders were fixed so I now get stuck. They worked fine before. Now I get stopped on many ladders. If I can jump above that point I'm fine. Also most once stopped if I stop moving forward then press to continue up I start moving again past the part that stopped me. Once again I didn't have this problem before the ladders were fixed.

I just hope the definition of an exploit isn't as bad as it was in EverQuest. There it seemed to be if you did anything other then using a spell or weapon to give yourself an advantage you were exploiting. You moved behind a tree to keep a monster from hitting you with an arrow? Thats an exploit. Sorry no tactics allowed.

Everquest players tried to use TACTICS?!

REALLY?!


Guess I was one of the old original players before this happened and never noticed it due to my addiction then


(Evercrack free for over 10 years now.)

[Accelerando]

I would like to know what we are responsible for in terms of raids. One player can change the outcome of a raid for the other 11. I don't think it is my responsibility to report this person nor do I want to, yet do I now have to give up on the quest regardless of time spent and resources used?

Maybe we can just temporarily remove "certain spells" from the game until you guys can fix the problem.

Today I had someone tell me if you don't know what to do don't do anything at all when I tried to prevent a bug from happening. Needless to say I got a quick beatdown with no healing, luckily I had a guildie there to toss me a rez. In the end... the bug happened, should I have left? I don't really think its fair to expect us to do that.

[Kulothar]

Such an open range for target practice. First off, you cannot have an exploit unless the programers didn't code properly. It is a game, there are sooooo many exploits that mobs use such as casting, moving and shooting arrows while held or paralized; Chain casting with limitless spell points; bugging and going into hyperregen/untargetable; etc.

When a quest becomes uncompletable or stupid hard it is not fun such as the untargetable Cubes in Blighted or the mobs get impossible skils like skel archers that can shoot accross the desert it shows favoratism for mobs and a disregard for players. The devs seem to think nothing about fixing these things. But they talk about instant banning if a player uses a tactic to win. I agree that we need a POSTED list of what is exploits and where. It may seem logical if you do something the mob would become confused or disabled in a "real" situation which is tactics. If you grease or icestorm a mob and they stop attacking is should be because you used that attack not because the programers have bad code. The mobs use the same tactics. How many times in the ice dragon room or the air ele in Pop do people get knocked down and cannot get back up but if you do that to a mob it is an exploit?

I agree people should not use exploits but we need a definition.
Is it an exploit when I duck behind a crystal in the desert because some skelly half way accross the desert is filling me with arrows?
Is it an exploit when I grease a mob and he falls down and cannot get up?
Is it an exploit when I sleetstorm or acid fog a mob and he moves?
Is it an exploit when a mob kills something and cannot decide what to fight?
Is it an exploit when I hide behind a tank so I don't get pounded on?
Is it an exploit to make mobs dance or to fog them?

For example, in the Shroud the other day the LFM stated no exploits and one cleric reminded us at least a dozen times that if we did anything to bug it he would quit. Fine, we fought our way though and in part 2 there was the great debate about killing mobs but nobody could agree if they were exploits or not since each mobs can be killed differently and they don't return. The cleric kept complaining the entire time and also said using solvers on part 3 was an exploit. When we got to part 5 we were NOT using pets, killed everyting normally and had three tanks fighting the boss. The boss killed the tank he was concentrating on and bugged by himself with none of us trying to bug him. Is that an exploit? we didn't try to bug him? There was a big discussion and the cleric quit group along with a caster. The debate was to go on and finish or quit after all the expense to arrive there. I will not state whether we went on but what if we had resumed attacking him and a Dev banned us all? Is that fair? We tried not to cheat but the coding bugged on us as it has hundreds of times before, usually making a quest unfinishable.

You are ready to ban players for anything that you don't think is playing how you want, even though you give no guidelines and mobs are allowed greater exploits. Any one that had really played D&D would know that the fun part of the game is outwitting the DM and playing outside of what they expected. Otherwise why bother? A GM could just take a party and run it himself making them go where he wants, take stardardized actions and rolling the dice? That is what will happen to DDO if the Devs don't fix the bugs and start penalizing players. If someone that is a loyal player is banned for an known or unknown exploit, they will definately go somewhere else, I know I will if ever banned. There are plenty of other options these days.

I have played D&D since 1975 but if given an otherwise unsolveable quest and I got banned for using my resources to overcome it, I would be really ticked off at DDO.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Yark! Just a quick reminder that debating policy is not allowed in the thread.

The "short" definition of exploit is: When you try to make a bug happen on purpose to get something out of it.

But that isn't the purpose of our initiating this thread. The purposes is that we're going to tell you what exploits you can get in trouble for, and we're still building that list. After all, being able to "shadow dance" is hardly hurting anything, but by "technical" definition, you're trying to make the bug happen on purpose.

If you feel wrong about something, then don't do it. That's up to you. If you are doing something that turns out to be wrong - the GMs, they not like Beholders coming to cast disintegrate on you if you get in their range. Yark! GMs investigate the situation.

... also, I still wading through your many PMs and questions, I have responses soon for you!

Please please please! don't fix shadow dancing! (assuming I know what you mean) You guys already screwed it up a little with that sit and turn "fix"!

[Kulothar]

And your current definition of an exploit is almost identical to the Supreme Courts definition of Pornography (look it up if you dont know) and they are still fighting over that for over a hundred years now. One mans exploit is anothers tactic and all can be fixed in the AI if it is that important.

[Lizardgrad89]

IMO, it is an exploit to:

1. Use third party software to hack the game.
2. Purchase Plat or items with real money.

And that's about it.

From an immersive RP standpoint, we become the characters. During that time, we live in Stormreach. We eat, drink, sleep, play, fight, quest in Stormreach. The world is what it is. It isn't our fault if the world is imperfect. If the creators of the world (Devs) don't like the world, they change it. We, as the inhabitants, adjust to the new conditions.

But let me tell you, if I am fighting for my life against a gang of trolls, I am going to do whatever is necessary to survive the battle. If that means throwing my returning hammer from behind a rock, that's what I'm going to do. If the trolls are too stupid to run around the rock and get me, that's their problem, not mine.

I deal with inconsistencies in the world all the time, like slimes that are smart enough to try to flank you, despite having an Intelligence of about .01, or incredibly accurate archers who can hit the bullseye every time from 1000 yards away, or enemy spellcasters with unlimited spell points. So, if something accidently goes my way, I say a prayer thanking my Gods (BTW, this game REALLY needs a God pantheon) for my good fortune.

If this results in my banning, so be it.

[Riddikulus]

I agree people should not use exploits but we need a definition.
Is it an exploit when I duck behind a crystal in the desert because some skelly half way accross the desert is filling me with arrows?
Is it an exploit when I grease a mob and he falls down and cannot get up?
Is it an exploit when I sleetstorm or acid fog a mob and he moves?
Is it an exploit when a mob kills something and cannot decide what to fight?
Is it an exploit when I hide behind a tank so I don't get pounded on?
Is it an exploit to make mobs dance or to fog them?

None of these are exploits until Turbine explicitly says they are. Right now only the 4th one (mob kills something...) is potentially an exploit due to KK's previous statement about it.

For example, in the Shroud the other day the LFM stated no exploits and one cleric reminded us at least a dozen times that if we did anything to bug it he would quit. Fine, we fought our way though and in part 2 there was the great debate about killing mobs but nobody could agree if they were exploits or not since each mobs can be killed differently and they don't return. The cleric kept complaining the entire time and also said using solvers on part 3 was an exploit. When we got to part 5 we were NOT using pets, killed everyting normally and had three tanks fighting the boss. The boss killed the tank he was concentrating on and bugged by himself with none of us trying to bug him. Is that an exploit? we didn't try to bug him? There was a big discussion and the cleric quit group along with a caster. The debate was to go on and finish or quit after all the expense to arrive there. I will not state whether we went on but what if we had resumed attacking him and a Dev banned us all? Is that fair? We tried not to cheat but the coding bugged on us as it has hundreds of times before, usually making a quest unfinishable.

Sounds like your cleric was going a bit overboard. Solvers, why not? It was ok for him to say no exploits, but it was absurd for him to quit group if the mob bugged on it's own without anyone doing any of the "known" triggers.

It really sounds like the shroud just needs to be closed down until it is fixed. There is no reason for Turbine to be pitting players against each other over this.

[Pyromaniac]

I just received my reply to my PM to KK, and actually I was quite surprised. The list of various situations I sent in were all evaluated and I think the reply I received on each was fair to the point of being on the generous side of things. Which keeps the tactical elements in the game.

I'm not sure I can repost things here, I'll leave that up to the KK. But lets just say that this should help clarify things for everyone once the list is made public.

[Wizzly_Bear]

I just received my reply to my PM to KK, and actually I was quite surprised. The list of various situations I sent in were all evaluated and I think the reply I received on each was fair to the point of being on the generous side of things. Which keeps the tactical elements in the game.

I'm not sure I can repost things here, I'll leave that up to the KK. But lets just say that this should help clarify things for everyone once the list is made public.

hopefuly they do it sooner than later. tired of this bs.

[moorewr]

hopefuly they do it sooner than later. tired of this bs.

You wish has been granted!
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=146613

[Tin_Dragon]

Originally Posted by Kommunity Kobold
Without cost means that you or your team do not have to expend money, resources, equipment or supplies to achieve the goal. Without risk means that any chance of taking damage, being affected by spells/powers and/or dying or becoming incapacitated is non-existent or removed.

Ah, a fairly clear answer that the Hero method is out, thanks KK.

By the way, what is the target timeline we should hope to see a replay to a PM in?

How do you see that in there at all? The "hero" method I am thinking of requires

have to expend money, resources, equipment or supplies to achieve the goal

. Spell comps, damage repaired on equipment, and the foremost, MY TIME!

And I have seen this method FAIL.

Without risk means that any chance of taking damage, being affected by spells/powers and/or dying or becoming incapacitated is non-existent or removed

So, unless there is some OTHER "hero" method in which you speak, then it is a VALID TACTIC requiring MULTIPLE INDIVIDUALS TO WORK AS TEAM using the abilities granted by thier Race/Class/build which in my meager 2 decades of Dungeons and Dragons, makes it EXACTLY what this game is about.

KK see any problems with this?
oh, and I have a deeply Religous Anti- PM belief.

[Kistilan]

How do you see that in there at all? The "hero" method I am thinking of requires . Spell comps, damage repaired on equipment, and the foremost, MY TIME!

And I have seen this method FAIL.


So, unless there is some OTHER "hero" method in which you speak, then it is a VALID TACTIC requiring MULTIPLE INDIVIDUALS TO WORK AS TEAM using the abilities granted by thier Race/Class/build which in my meager 2 decades of Dungeons and Dragons, makes it EXACTLY what this game is about.

KK see any problems with this?
oh, and I have a deeply Religous Anti- PM belief.

Read The Exploits List vers 1.0 posted right above this sticky in this forum. It states a few definitive answers to your questions. No need to argue about The Hero Method anymore.

[Impaqt]

edit:
nvm, Answered in PM

[liamfrancais]

edit:
nvm, Answered in PM

Well that just bloody stinks for the rest of us who wanted to know the answer.