Gather round! Lets talk about exploits!

[Borror0]

I'm still waiting for my ponies and flowers on the forums. Who do I have to insult to get enough points????

I was also thinking about that.

I'm trying to think of something really riddiculous to go with it... not riddiculous enough... yet.

[Anastasios]

I am really confused here. You say you do not like complainers and go on to call anyone who complains a whiner? Which by making a post to complain about all you wrote makes you a...well, the very thing you say you do not like others doing. That makes no sense, unless you are really meaning anyone else who makes any complaint is to be labeled a "whiner" if it is not you personally?

Yeah, that reverse Jedi mind schtick does not work in DDO, I won't really dwell too much on your words, but I did read them...The obvious complaints came from those who were complaining (hence whining) about the exploits in the 1st place-what I wrote is pretty much cut and dry-a complaint you ask? No no, a rebuttal to what has happened coz of all the whining.

You say you are afraid of getting busted or banned coz of other people's actions?-then leave their group.

You say you'll send a tell to someone who puts a trade up in the LFM to let them know they can't do that?-he/she probably already knows

You say you don't like labeling people as tattlers or NARCS-well then what are you doing, are you on Turbine's payroll?

You pay your fees, I pay mine-and Turbine provides the services, so is this an issue you feel you have expertise on? You think you will get banned coz someone threw a firewall down where it shouldn't have been? You love playing this game but don't realize the implementation of a report system will ruin it? Gimme a break, the real exploiters are the farmers, the dupers, the guys putting **** up on the AH that should not be there...Not the people who pay to play this game and have a good time by whatever means they happen to take to complete their objectives. It is Turbine's job to fix these issues and the community's job to help them and let them know about things that should be fixed, IT IS NOT THE COMMUNITY'S JOB TO REPORT PEOPLE FOR HOW THEY PLAY THE GAME COZ I WOULD HATE TO GET REPORTED BY SOMEONE LIKE YOU IF I CAST A FIREWALL IN WHAT YOU THINK IS THE WRONG PLACE, I hope that clarifies things for ya

[Rameses]

Yeah, that reverse Jedi mind schtick does not work in DDO, I won't really dwell too much on your words, but I did read them...The obvious complaints came from those who were complaining (hence whining) about the exploits in the 1st place-what I wrote is pretty much cut and dry-a complaint you ask? No no, a rebuttal to what has happened coz of all the whining.

You say you are afraid of getting busted or banned coz of other people's actions?-then leave their group.

You say you'll send a tell to someone who puts a trade up in the LFM to let them know they can't do that?-he/she probably already knows

You say you don't like labeling people as tattlers or NARCS-well then what are you doing, are you on Turbine's payroll?

You pay your fees, I pay mine-and Turbine provides the services, so is this an issue you feel you have expertise on? You think you will get banned coz someone threw a firewall down where it shouldn't have been? You love playing this game but don't realize the implementation of a report system will ruin it? Gimme a break, the real exploiters are the farmers, the dupers, the guys putting **** up on the AH that should not be there...Not the people who pay to play this game and have a good time by whatever means they happen to take to complete their objectives. It is Turbine's job to fix these issues and the community's job to help them and let them know about things that should be fixed, IT IS NOT THE COMMUNITY'S JOB TO REPORT PEOPLE FOR HOW THEY PLAY THE GAME COZ I WOULD HATE TO GET REPORTED BY SOMEONE LIKE YOU IF I CAST A FIREWALL IN WHAT YOU THINK IS THE WRONG PLACE, I hope that clarifies things for ya

The scary thing is I agree with your last statement. I feel dirty....

-Rameses!

[Yaga_Nub]

Na, I say a pink fluffy tu-tu and a pretty little tiara with the whole "Exploiter Curse" idea. Wait, on second thought maybe some would actually...want that. Ick....lol >.<

Unfortunately I know a few people who would not consider this punishment......... right Rowan?

[rimble]

I think we're on to something. Let's turn the old tent space into a player punishment zone. We need stocks, and 'plioters go there for 2 playing hours- no moving, no /telling, just reading chat.

I think I was in it last night. The Pit Fiend put me in time out. Guess I was being naughty.

[Aspenor]

IT IS NOT THE COMMUNITY'S JOB TO REPORT PEOPLE FOR HOW THEY PLAY THE GAME COZ I WOULD HATE TO GET REPORTED BY SOMEONE LIKE YOU IF I CAST A FIREWALL IN WHAT YOU THINK IS THE WRONG PLACE

You would never get banned for this.

Being reported by a person doesn't mean you WILL be disciplined. All reports are subject to investigation. Turbine decides what is and is not a punishable action, not the players. They don't willy-nilly ban every person that gets reported for cheating.

[Yaga_Nub]

Yes! At least once! Extra awesome!

AND --> I'm still waiting for my ponies and flowers on the forums. Who do I have to insult to get enough points????

You can insult me all you want moorewr. I can take it.

[CSFurious]

this thread is titled "Let's talk about exploits!", but what the exploits are cannot even actually be discussed

that is absolutely ridiculous

anyway, it is Turbine's job to fix the exploits & it is my job to play the game fairly

however, it is not my job to play secret-police for dev's who cannot fix the exploitation

how can people even be excited about Mod 7 when Mod 6 does not even work right 4 months later?

[Altarboy]

My opinion is that There is no way Turbine should be punishing anyone for what is clearly their own negligence. If You (Turbine) consider something that the players are doing to be an exploit because of Your own bad coding, Instead of punishing players, FIX IT!
Don't try to tell Me that I am a "bad" player and punish Me for using any and all resources at My disposal to complete a quest. This subject has really polarized the playerbase of DDO, and what has been done? NOTHING! Instead of FIXING THE CODE, You decide to punish the people who pay Your salaries? Ludicrous, incredible, and ridiculous are the adjectives that spring to mind when I think about this subject, and what has been done to actually fix the problems with the AI in DDO. You want to go "Big Brother" on the playerbase and ban people? Fine. I can go spend My money elsewhere. Until I am banned for trying to play My favorite game of all time the way it is coded, I will continue to use any and all resources at My disposal to finish any and all quests in the game.

DON'T BLAME THE PLAYERS FOR YOUR OWN INCOMPETENCE!!!!!!!!

I just wanted to highlight this post as it speaks the truth...
I think the decision to FINALLY let it be discussed is good but,

I will NEVER report another player for exploiting IMO the ONLY reason a player needs to report another player is harrasment.

Turbine, Kobold, Cube, Tolero ....whoever...

Stop wasting resources going after players for nonsense like this and pay more attention to the real problems in the game...
If people continue to exploit whats going to happen?

A few players will cry about it and thats it.
Shouldn't be high on your list of priorities.

If this lag continues you will lose your player base.
Everyones screaming for content.
Why not devote more resources to FIXING the exploit rather than going after the player?
Wouldn't that solve the problem?
Where do YOU think the focus should be?
And you players who think going after exploiters is more important than fixing this stuff....well...what can I say

Asking players to report other players for exploiting is just nonproductive.
Banning said players is damaging.

I honestly don't care how anybody else plays this game.
I keep seeing posts about "ethics" or "morals" and find them to be hysterical.
This is a GAME....let me say that again...it's a GAME!!!!

If you insist on bringing "Ethics" or "Morals" into the fray then I submit that this entire game is based on breaking into some person or creatures home,.....murdering them.....and stealing their goods.
How in any way can an "Exploit" be less moral or ethical than that?

I love this game.
I have met some great people here.
I will be sad to see it go...and I really believe if this trend continues it will.

[Vhlad]

an exploit is defined as:
"Any purposeful activity which takes advantage of a game bug or defect which returns benefit or quest progress without cost or risk to the player or team."

It's tricky to distinguish between what is considered "without cost or risk" when looking at some strategies that exploit weaknesses of the AI. There are strategies which exploit weaknesses of the AI to make mobs become inactive, and those are generally regarded as unacceptable exploits (even if you use arrows or wands to deal damage, so that there is some "cost" involved). But how about strategies that serve to confuse and manhandle the AI?

For example:
Splitting up into 2 groups and ranging the pit fiend or demon queen so they switch aggro back and forth and pace in the middle, heading toward no single group. To be extra safe, if the mob gets frisky and has a moment where they finally decide to do some kind of ranged attack (instead of just spinning around or pacing) you can stick 1 evasion class infront of each group to block any kind of ranged attack.

The end result is still effectively zero cost or risk to the player, assuming no mistakes are made. If "assuming no mistakes are made" is the defining difference, then note that even if a mob is inactive, mistakes can still be made to bring risk or cost to the player (stepping in blades, walking off a ledge, stepping in lava, or even finding a way to reactive the mob).

I guess the difference is if the end result is representative of the mob behaving according to INTENDED behaviour then it's OK? But intended behaviour is determined by its coding, so if a mob is coded to become inactive under a certain set of conditions, then how can a company fault the players for discovering the conditions in the code that result in that behaviour? The goal should be to fix it, or alter the circumstances to make doing XXXX or YYYY undesirable (i.e. if you can't easily fix the AI, then apply a trigger to the end of the fight that requires the mob to be active). I can see good reason to punish people for altering the code (or altering the information that is sent back and forth) to do or obtain something illigitimate... but am finding it hard to justify punishing someone for playing the game as is.

IMO, the best thing you can do is come out and tell us specifically and publically what we are not allowed to do, and enforce that list if it can be proven someone knowing and willingly did something unacceptable. You don't need to justify why or how, just state DONT DO IT! like it's the divine word and smite those who disobey

Alternatively, you can keep the list private, and hand out warnings on a case by case basis. Once a warning is obtained for a specific item on the list, then it is established that the player with the warning should know that they are not allowed to do *something*, and if you catch them knowingly and willingly doing that specific thing again then you can be more harsh. In this approach, then attaching the warning in writing to their private user CP or account history, detailing specifically what they were warned about and should not do again, would be a very fair thing to do.

The key here is to have some kind very public and transparent display. A visual reminder would be great, like giving people who break a rule a pink bubblehead and a penalty to loot for a while, but a DONT DO IT! list or a clear warning description on your account (i.e. detailing the specific bug, not just saying "warning for in-game exploits") is definitely needed to make things seem transparent, fair, and ensure players have sufficient knowledge of what not to do.

I also think there is a very big difference between trying to cause a bug VS playing the game and having it bug by accident. Sometimes a mob becomes inactive even if no one is trying to do anything unacceptable. If it takes an hour to get to the mob, and it becomes inactive through no intention of any player, then I hope the kobold would not fault the entire party for not throwing the hour away to recall and start over, because forcing people to throw their time away for a game bug out of fear of banning may drive some players away.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The above is all asuming that Turbine actually plans to enforce and moderate those who take advantage of in-game bugs, which I personally have never seen yet, but it sounds like this is where things are headed.

[Oreg]

I just wanted to highlight this post as it speaks the truth...
I think the decision to FINALLY let it be discussed is good but,

I will NEVER report another player for exploiting IMO the ONLY reason a player needs to report another player is harrasment.

Turbine, Kobold, Cube, Tolero ....whoever...

Stop wasting resources going after players for nonsense like this and pay more attention to the real problems in the game...
If people continue to exploit whats going to happen?

A few players will cry about it and thats it.
Shouldn't be high on your list of priorities.

If this lag continues you will lose your player base.
Everyones screaming for content.
Why not devote more resources to FIXING the exploit rather than going after the player?
Wouldn't that solve the problem?
Where do YOU think the focus should be?
And you players who think going after exploiters is more important than fixing this stuff....well...what can I say

Asking players to report other players for exploiting is just nonproductive.
Banning said players is damaging.

I honestly don't care how anybody else plays this game.
I keep seeing posts about "ethics" or "morals" and find them to be hysterical.
This is a GAME....let me say that again...it's a GAME!!!!

If you insist on bringing "Ethics" or "Morals" into the fray then I submit that this entire game is based on breaking into some person or creatures home,.....murdering them.....and stealing their goods.
How in any way can an "Exploit" be less moral or ethical than that?

I love this game.
I have met some great people here.
I will be sad to see it go...and I really believe if this trend continues it will.

Altarboy, that was an incredibly well thought out and well phrased post. You kept your cool and made excellent point after excellent point. Unexpected coming from you Kudos to you!

[lissa_981]

I wish I could take part in this discussion, unfortunately, I would then have to live in fear of action against my account if I say something wrong or recrimination from segments of the playerbase for taking a stand.

I really hate the forum moderating/community relationship decisions Turbine has been making over the last year or so and I wish you guys would seriously rethink your stances on many issues.

[Quanefel]

I just wanted to highlight this post as it speaks the truth...
I think the decision to FINALLY let it be discussed is good but,

I will NEVER report another player for exploiting IMO the ONLY reason a player needs to report another player is harrasment.

Turbine, Kobold, Cube, Tolero ....whoever...

Stop wasting resources going after players for nonsense like this and pay more attention to the real problems in the game...
If people continue to exploit whats going to happen?

A few players will cry about it and thats it.
Shouldn't be high on your list of priorities.

If this lag continues you will lose your player base.
Everyones screaming for content.
Why not devote more resources to FIXING the exploit rather than going after the player?
Wouldn't that solve the problem?
Where do YOU think the focus should be?
And you players who think going after exploiters is more important than fixing this stuff....well...what can I say

Asking players to report other players for exploiting is just nonproductive.
Banning said players is damaging.

I honestly don't care how anybody else plays this game.
I keep seeing posts about "ethics" or "morals" and find them to be hysterical.
This is a GAME....let me say that again...it's a GAME!!!!

If you insist on bringing "Ethics" or "Morals" into the fray then I submit that this entire game is based on breaking into some person or creatures home,.....murdering them.....and stealing their goods.
How in any way can an "Exploit" be less moral or ethical than that?

I love this game.
I have met some great people here.
I will be sad to see it go...and I really believe if this trend continues it will.

If you do not think Ethics, morals or anything else you consider as "non-sense", you might want to reread the EULA because that is basically what we all agree to when we installed. If you want a "free for all" or "Ethic,moral" free zone while you play, you might not be saying that if someone in game did or said something to you that goes against the rules that are stated in the EULA as being unaccepted. If you personally do not want or have personal ethics, morals in game it does not mean others feel the same as you. There is nothing wrong with having at least a small set of guildlines for people to behave, I think we all know that a anarchy type mindset...anywhere is not something people enjoy. If you do, that is fine. Most of us do not and Turbine asked us to follow simple rules to guide us to a better playing environment where we all can play together no matter what our personal beliefs outside the game are.

[Aspenor]

nvm not worth it

[Devilgoat]

Thanks Mr Kobold. I love reporting people. In fact it is my hobby.....

I promise that I will put in a ticket and report every pug group that does not let me join them, purely out of spite.

I will EXPLOIT the GMs who have wisely given me the power, once again, to make other (innocent) gamers unhappy.

FIX the BUGS!! Stop wasting your time attempting to control the behavior of the same people WHO PAY YOUR WAGES!!

[moorewr]

You can insult me all you want moorewr. I can take it.

LOLZ! OK, here goes!

..I got nothing.



wait! wait! I had a serious point to make. Whatever we think of the "report exploiters" policy, I find it incredibly funny that the usual suspects are posting ALL CAPS denunciations of it as if it were something new. KK was just saying the same things they've always said. For better or worse.

Vlahd/Sair made a very cogent argument up above, and I endorse it: tell us which activities are ban-worthy exploits using the normal mechanism of the game. Give us a specific list and enforce it to the hilt. Too many of them, Shroud Part 5 for example, are normally legitimate tactics. The thing you are doing is only an exploit if you know it will cause the fiend to bug.

WoW was subjected to code cracks and other fun 3rd party attacks. Those are clearly exploits in the IT Security sense of the word. Jumping so you can stand on a light-fixture to cast? Just cheese.

Short-comings of AI pathing and attack logic brought on by activities that I would perform if the bugs were not present? That should NEVER lead to a ban. Summoning pets, jumping to to high ground, blocking a doorway when out-numbered? These are legitimate tactics, not exploits.

[Wulf_Ratbane]

We've considered it long and hard. We've had multiple meetings about it, and everyone is agreed that this is not acceptable. We'll definately take your feedback into consideration, but for now, these are the rules.

So we can't put "No Exploits" in the LFM, because that would advertise the fact that certain quests contain exploits.

But we can, as each player joins the group, explain to them that we won't be exploiting, even though this also advertises the fact that the quest contains exploits.

And your method adds a huge burden to the group leader and to each player.

Let's say I join a PUG, and I ask the group leader, before the quest starts, if they plan to use an exploit. The leader says yes (and probably explains that he doesn't consider it an exploit...). I choose not to join.

Should I go ahead and report that player immediately? Is the intent to exploit sufficient?

I hope you guys are not expecting widespread enthusiasm from fair-minded players to publicly make pariahs out of themselves by ratting out PUGs.

This is a silly policy. It's deleterious to the server's sense of community. It's McCarthyite.

It's flat out shameful, actually, to ask respectable players to shoulder the burden of being the "bad guy" because of bad code and worse policies.

[Uproar]

See title to my post...

I have zero doubt that the operators of this game can observe actions within any dungeon at any time. If by some madness they can't, they must seriously be slow at implementing some straight-forward tools that are must-haves for any online game.

I doubt it would take more then a couple of hours of someones time a few times a week observing for these known issues and banning folks that do these actions before word spreads among the illicit-news-trading-players that it's not worth the risk. Hell pop into dungeons with high rewards and no reports of exploits occasionally just to see what's up.

A quick scan of members inventory (especially in high powered guilds) will give you a clue about those to watch more then others. Some are rich, some are filthy stinking rich. Richness does not imply wrong-doing, but on the other hand being poor certainly means your not doing it! Follow the money.

[akla_thornfist]

this thread is just plain dumb and let me say i will not report anyone who is exploiting, im here to play a game and have fun some people play the game differantly than i do but if they are having fun so be it. turbine needs to fix the stuff that they say is an exploit not my job to police your game. exploiters dont interfere with my fun at all, now i will bug report something i see as a problem but dont exspect me to be jonny tattletale jeez how crazy is this buy the time everyone gets done reporting people there will be about 100 players left.

[Aspenor]

When you sit in a forum criticizing people for doing the same things you do, I won't consider this "the place" anymore.

This is completely laughable. Seriously, take your grudge somewhere else.