Gather round! Lets talk about exploits!

[Kommunity_Kobold]

Now now... this decision by all of us, including Mr Big Jiggly. We may enforce rules, but we not always like them either.

[Sambvca]

Is it now OK to talk about exploits you've fixed, ie. Remember 10min Tempest Spine runs when XXXX worked?

[Big_Russ]

Here is what we suggest:
If you're feeling ambitious, we would appreciate a report to Customer Service that they are exploiting. (The sooner this report comes in, the better.)

Wow. Just wow.

[WeaselKing]

Here is what we suggest:

Should you join a group that wants to use questionable methods to complete the quest, you should politely inform them that you don't break rules and drop the group. If you're feeling ambitious, we would appreciate a report to Customer Service that they are exploiting. (The sooner this report comes in, the better.)

So it is a gamble when we join a group. If that group is not honest about their intentions up front and takes actions that I can prevent or alter I then need to drop that group despite whatever investment in resources that I might have spent on thqat group and then I am to leave myself susceptible to harassment by making it obvious that I have reported them.

If you take on someone who asks if the group will partake in such activities, you should inform them then that you will not be exploiting, and that it is against the rules to do so. The player will then either drop group themselves, or argue. If they argue, me say that you kick them from the group, politely.

I would avoid posting anything, anywhere that indicates that a quest can be exploited.

I will take that as a no, even subtlety is discouraged.

One more question what are we to do if someone not familiar with an exploit accidentally triggers one that we are aware of or if we know of an exploit but accidentally trigger its effects? (I can think of one possible exploit that I could easily create by accident) Is the only "proper" action to either drop group, reform and try again or contact a gm and have them unbug it (or hope they can)?

To be honest, this thread has only led to increasing my anxiety about running a certain quest right now.

[Kistilan]

KK-

What's your opinion about a thing called The Hero Method? Or do you need details? It has been a long since heated debate, but I have viewed it only as people considering it a cheesy tactic.

The Hero Method

by Cloud Strife

V/R.

-Kistilan

[Aspenor]

Interesting move.

I know what was "fixed," I think, but not so convinced it's fixed.

Also, I do not think I will be PUGing certain quests often.

[Solmage]

Thanks for this guys, but...

I'd like to ask you to reconsider the posting on the LFM thing. I realize you don't want to advertise that an exploit even exists, but you seriously underestimate the player population: The existence of blatant exploits such as the one present vs the big bad evil thingy spreads faster than you can say ouch.

Let's look at the pros and cons:

Pros:

+ People who don't know it exists don't learn about it from a casual glance at the LFM.

Cons:

- People will learn about it anyway if they do join a cheating group, and that's sadly most of them these days.
- People will learn about it anyway if they do join a NON cheating group because the leader will state "No cheats allowed", quite possibly going into detail as to which cheats are meant.
- Ergo it only stops people who wouldn't/couldn't run that quest anyway from learning from the exploit, everyone else learns it very quickly.
- A player may find out after 45 minutes in a quest and spending 100k in supplies that the group plans on cheating. So he can either drop group and waste tons of resources and time (which of course no GM will reimburse) or be forced to become a co-cheater. Neither option is honestly acceptable.
- A player may decide to force the cheat on anyone in spite of what the group leader's original requested simple because "this wastes less of my resources" (see some of the banned threads for examples of people doing this/supporting using cheats). Not stating it up front before someone even joins facilitates scenarios like these from developing.
- A non cheater will still be very intimidated from joining a group since he doesn't know what to expect; dropping group will at best earn him a negative stigma ('difficult','pedantic','elitist', etc) and not dropping would make him a cheater, so he simply doesn't join to begin with almost all such groups. I should know, I fit this profile and it really really sucks not enjoying the shroud


Anyway, I hope this particular policy is reconsidered, because as I said, it only stops people who wouldn't or couldn't run the given quest from finding out about the exploits, and it even doesn't do a good job of that. (guild chat, friends, etc, still spread it)

[maddmatt70]

hmm, I don't know if I like the kommunity Kobold because he kind of reminds of children's puppet therapy.

[Angelus_dead]

Should you join a group that wants to use questionable methods to complete the quest, you should politely inform them that you don't break rules and drop the group. If you're feeling ambitious, we would appreciate a report to Customer Service that they are exploiting.

That is griefing them. Because you (as server admins) encourage it, that makes it "legal". But it still intentionally interferes with another person's ability to enjoy the game (because he enjoys cheating). It instigates conflicts, etc etc.

The earlier a group leader can present his position on what is and isn't acceptable, the easier it is for players on both sides to deal with without causing the kinds of public arguments that lead to mutual blacklists and various retaliatory harassment and punitive reporting.

A "no exploits" comment in the LFM allows someone to passively and silently acknowledge it, by simply not joining with someone who he would disagree with. But a group leader who obeys the rule and doesn't inform players until after they've joined is putting those players in a position of publically dropping the group in front of the other members, which leads to trouble later.

If you take on someone who asks if the group will partake in such activities, you should inform them then that you will not be exploiting, and that it is against the rules to do so. The player will then either drop group themselves, or argue. If they argue, me say that you kick them from the group, politely.

The DDO software does not enable a group leader to kick someone when they're in the middle of a quest.

[Kistilan]

A "no exploits" comment in the LFM allows someone to passively and silently acknowledge it, by simply not joining with someone who he would disagree with. But a group leader who obeys the rule and doesn't inform players until after they've joined is putting those players in a position of publically dropping the group in front of the other members, which leads to trouble later.


The DDO software does not enable a group leader to kick someone when they're in the middle of a quest.

Well, KK did say to actively engage your PUG and state "Hey, we're not exploiting on quest X. Got a problem with that?"

They either acknowledge and agree, or they don't and you kick them prior to starting the quest. If you pick up a straggler mid-quest, you inform them immediately. Hindsight is 20/20, so actively engaging your PUG recruits is a necessity.

Honestly, is it really that hard to /tell MrNoExploitsHere "Hey MNEH, we're doing this run and we're not utilizing the exploit X for completion -- are you ok with that?"

Answer is yes/no and /join/don'tjoin or /leave or /kick prior to the quest.

There is a lazy way to do this and it's placing no exploits in the LFM. That's just being lazy, isn't it? Actively screen your recruits. I've never had anyone bite my head off for such activity and I'm very polite about it.

[captain1z]

Here is what we suggest:

Should you join a group that wants to use questionable methods to complete the quest, you should politely inform them that you don't break rules and drop the group. If you're feeling ambitious, we would appreciate a report to Customer Service that they are exploiting. (The sooner this report comes in, the better.)

If you take on someone who asks if the group will partake in such activities, you should inform them then that you will not be exploiting, and that it is against the rules to do so. The player will then either drop group themselves, or argue. If they argue, me say that you kick them from the group, politely.

I would avoid posting anything, anywhere that indicates that a quest can be exploited.

That suggestion would put me in a tough spot. Dont get me wrong ..... Im not here to argue every idea you throw and cry out "nerf - why not just play the game for me". I prefer to do it the right way, without an obviously cheap and questionable tactic but ............

as a guildmember (which I am not) if you are on a run which your guild leader has chosen to use an exploit and you say "I cant be party to this" or even " got an emergency , I gotta run" this would be a great way of getting your self booted from the guild and blacklisted from all guilds friendly with the one you left. You may find very few options when it comes to who you can play with as word spreads.

As a pugger it becomes even worse as established groups/guilds may say "dont take him, we dont know him and he may report us" even if thats not the case you could be labled a "snitch" without ever having put in a report.

What I have been doing as of late is if an exploit is gunna be used (and in truth I never know until Ive already invested 45 mins or so into the quest) I do not contribute to the creation of the effect and I don take the completion of the quest...... no xp .... no end reward. It seems to me that if a GM or whoever does peek in on a group that is doing this and drops the ban hammer, there may be calateral damage in the form of players who are in party and feel its wrong but really dont feel they can do much to stop it and still have people to run with later.



As a side note ..... I was in a group recently that completed shroud #5 clean ......... using 1 tank, 3 healers and a bunch of rangers who ran out of arrows before it was all done. It took a really long time, close to 1 hour, and drained the entire group of every resource they had on them. the tank even said he had to switch out greater false life belts once. I think we got lucky really and presented with the option of doing it the way we did or the cheap way, how many would do it the hard way. Just so it doesnt sound like we were all a bunch of boyscouts carrying a rules book in 1 hand and sword in the other......... some in the group did try the easy way at 1st, had it worked I would have dropped like I have been doing, when they obviously didnt need me anymore. Its because it didnt work that they decided to go ahead and try it clean making it the 2nd time Ive actually completed that quest in 11 runs.

Fix the exploits....sure Enforce the rules......... ok np but remember to check your fire. even in a looting riot during a blackout there are people standing around doing nothing....... the tear gas you throw into the crowd gets them also.



* and a big welcome back KK*

[Angelus_dead]

There is a lazy way to do this and it's placing no exploits in the LFM. That's just being lazy, isn't it? Actively screen your recruits. I've never had anyone bite my head off for such activity and I'm very polite about it.

Some players do in fact take aggressive offense at the implications of directly asking them not to exploit.

As for being "lazy"- this is a game, it's supposed to be relaxing and conducive to laziness, especially the kind of "laziness" that means not playing an unpaid server enforcer and ratting out people who have different thresholds on cheezy and cheating.

[captain1z]

Thanks for this guys, but...

I'd like to ask you to reconsider the posting on the LFM thing. I realize you don't want to advertise that an exploit even exists, but you seriously underestimate the player population: The existence of blatant exploits such as the one present vs the big bad evil thingy spreads faster than you can say ouch.

Let's look at the pros and cons:

Pros:

+ People who don't know it exists don't learn about it from a casual glance at the LFM.

Cons:

- People will learn about it anyway if they do join a cheating group, and that's sadly most of them these days.
- People will learn about it anyway if they do join a NON cheating group because the leader will state "No cheats allowed", quite possibly going into detail as to which cheats are meant.
- Ergo it only stops people who wouldn't/couldn't run that quest anyway from learning from the exploit, everyone else learns it very quickly.
- A player may find out after 45 minutes in a quest and spending 100k in supplies that the group plans on cheating. So he can either drop group and waste tons of resources and time (which of course no GM will reimburse) or be forced to become a co-cheater. Neither option is honestly acceptable.
- A player may decide to force the cheat on anyone in spite of what the group leader's original requested simple because "this wastes less of my resources" (see some of the banned threads for examples of people doing this/supporting using cheats). Not stating it up front before someone even joins facilitates scenarios like these from developing.
- A non cheater will still be very intimidated from joining a group since he doesn't know what to expect; dropping group will at best earn him a negative stigma ('difficult','pedantic','elitist', etc) and not dropping would make him a cheater, so he simply doesn't join to begin with almost all such groups. I should know, I fit this profile and it really really sucks not enjoying the shroud


Anyway, I hope this particular policy is reconsidered, because as I said, it only stops people who wouldn't or couldn't run the given quest from finding out about the exploits, and it even doesn't do a good job of that. (guild chat, friends, etc, still spread it)

I agree 100% with what was just said here. Go a few months (1or2) back in my posts and you will see I had trouble getting into the vale.... not even talking about meridia or the shroud.

The discussion about weapons that dont belong to you on the AH went right over my head and I was a bit upset thinking I could go buy something that looks cool and I can afford and get banned for it and never know why. I had no idea what people were taking about and a PM sent to me warned me to check for items that said "drop on death" but didnt really elaborate..... was appreciated still.

In regards to the shroud itself... I worked pretty had to flag and finally get in. It was my first time inside and Im following instructions........... I had no idea what was going on and then the exploit kicked in. I said to myself "holy cow dung, this is what they were talking about" afterwards the option to leave was given to all those who felt it was neccessary.............. and I did.

90% of all runs in the shroud make use of it if they can. Lets not be coy everyone.... its out in the open and Ill be the 1st to stand up and say "yes Ive been groups that use it" we all know what it is if you have been on a run..... dont feel the need to protest and say "Oh not me I would never be a part of that". The only options left to me are

1- dont take the completion
2- report it when I see it and leave
3- dont run the shroud till its fixed

If its gunna come down to banning groups of people, I would suggest:

1- leave 1-4 open but lock part 5 till fixed

or

2- shut down the entire quest


Id much rather you do the first option.

[Rameses]

PM SENT.

Thanks Q and KK

I am, Rameses!

[TheDoctor]

My take on it is, I use what ever tactics I can to complete the quest, If I learn that I can, for example, jump to a spot where I cant be reached, am protected from line of sight and can still take things out or draw them into a vulnerable position then I will do it. If you "Turbine" screw something up and your monster just stands there while we pound him that too is a tactic we can use, its not an "Exploit", How am I supposed to know if you meant the "Tactic" to be there or not...?? or if you just screwed something up again.

An exploit IMHO is for example, going in and out of the quest with different chars to gain end game benefits without being present on end game.

I have played this game for 2 years and I have many tactics worked out, if people follow my tactics in other groups does that make me a baddie. They say to the Kobold "such and such taught me to do that" and now its my fault. I don't think so, I don't write the code, I just play, Its Turbines job to make it work/not work, not mine.

Maybe you should have a list and define these so called exploits so we all know what you are referring to otherwise you have a hell of a police job on your hands.

And by the way if I am doing something that you consider an exploit then you better give me a warning because I have no idea what is and isn’t ok to do. And then what if I'm doing more than 1 exploit and don't know it will you give me a warning for each..???

This is ridiculous. Just fix it and be called for what you are "Nerfer" we can handle that its been happening all along.

That being said, there are many other things Turbine should be working on aka ladder bug, aka swim bug, aka lag spikes aka more content. These so called "exploits" I don't even know what you're talking about.

[SteeleTrueheart]

As a side note ..... I was in a group recently that completed <some quest> clean ......... using 1 tank, 3 healers and a bunch of rangers who ran out of arrows before it was all done. It took a really long time, close to 1 hour, and drained the entire group of every resource they had on them. the tank even said he had to switch out greater false life belts once. I think we got lucky really and presented with the option of doing it the way we did or the cheap way, how many would do it the hard way. Just so it doesnt sound like we were all a bunch of boyscouts carrying a rules book in 1 hand and sword in the other......... some in the group did try the easy way at 1st, had it worked I would have dropped like I have been doing, when they obviously didnt need me anymore. Its because it didnt work that they decided to go ahead and try it clean making it the 2nd time Ive actually completed that quest in 11 runs.

* and a big welcome back KK*

My guild runs this cleanly all the time. If you have 2 or 3 good tanks it is quite easy. I am not a good tank, so I usuall run in drop all my smites while mooching off all the mass healing, if need be LoH myself if I take too much agro and then move out while the main tanks do their thing.

[KristovK]

That is griefing them. Because you (as server admins) encourage it, that makes it "legal". But it still intentionally interferes with another person's ability to enjoy the game (because he enjoys cheating). It instigates conflicts, etc etc.

That's not griefing, that's playing the game ethically, morally, and legally in the correct manner, not engaging in exploits and reporting the people who continue to engage in exploits after it's been well documented that exploiting is NOT allowed in DDO. Because someone enjoys exploiting doesn't mean they have the right to engage in that behaviour, especially when it's specifically prohibited in the ToS.

As for the person who's worried about being blacklisted by guilds who engage in exploiting...don't be, the members of those guilds who engage in exploiting tend to find themselves unable to login after a bit of time passes, so I wouldn't be concerned about them and their opinions. There ARE guilds who engage in this behaviour, most of us are aware of this, and we tend to avoid those people due to that fact. I sure as hells won't run with the people I know who actively engage in exploiting, I don't feel like getting banned because of them.

The Hero Method IS a great question, I'd also like to know the official stand on that, as it's become THE way to do that specific quest.

[Nevthial]

I'd like to ask you to reconsider the posting on the LFM thing.
- A player may find out after 45 minutes in a quest and spending 100k in supplies that the group plans on cheating. So he can either drop group and waste tons of resources and time (which of course no GM will reimburse) or be forced to become a co-cheater. Neither option is honestly acceptable.
- A player may decide to force the cheat on anyone in spite of what the group leader's original requested simple because "this wastes less of my resources" (see some of the banned threads for examples of people doing this/supporting using cheats). Not stating it up front before someone even joins facilitates scenarios like these from developing.
- A non cheater will still be very intimidated from joining a group since he doesn't know what to expect; dropping group will at best earn him a negative stigma ('difficult','pedantic','elitist', etc) and not dropping would make him a cheater, so he simply doesn't join to begin with almost all such groups. I should know, I fit this profile and it really really sucks not enjoying the shroud


Anyway, I hope this particular policy is reconsidered, because as I said, it only stops people who wouldn't or couldn't run the given quest from finding out about the exploits, and it even doesn't do a good job of that. (guild chat, friends, etc, still spread it)

I'm with Solmage on this one. Can we post on our Who panel comments that we aren't exploiters? Or is that in violation as well ? At least doing that may stop a potential exploiter from attempting to recruit us.

[bigal4458]

Thanks for this guys, but...

I'd like to ask you to reconsider the posting on the LFM thing. I realize you don't want to advertise that an exploit even exists, but you seriously underestimate the player population: The existence of blatant exploits such as the one present vs the big bad evil thingy spreads faster than you can say ouch.

Let's look at the pros and cons:

Pros:

+ People who don't know it exists don't learn about it from a casual glance at the LFM.

Cons:

- People will learn about it anyway if they do join a cheating group, and that's sadly most of them these days.
- People will learn about it anyway if they do join a NON cheating group because the leader will state "No cheats allowed", quite possibly going into detail as to which cheats are meant.
- Ergo it only stops people who wouldn't/couldn't run that quest anyway from learning from the exploit, everyone else learns it very quickly.
- A player may find out after 45 minutes in a quest and spending 100k in supplies that the group plans on cheating. So he can either drop group and waste tons of resources and time (which of course no GM will reimburse) or be forced to become a co-cheater. Neither option is honestly acceptable.
- A player may decide to force the cheat on anyone in spite of what the group leader's original requested simple because "this wastes less of my resources" (see some of the banned threads for examples of people doing this/supporting using cheats). Not stating it up front before someone even joins facilitates scenarios like these from developing.
- A non cheater will still be very intimidated from joining a group since he doesn't know what to expect; dropping group will at best earn him a negative stigma ('difficult','pedantic','elitist', etc) and not dropping would make him a cheater, so he simply doesn't join to begin with almost all such groups. I should know, I fit this profile and it really really sucks not enjoying the shroud


Anyway, I hope this particular policy is reconsidered, because as I said, it only stops people who wouldn't or couldn't run the given quest from finding out about the exploits, and it even doesn't do a good job of that. (guild chat, friends, etc, still spread it)

The truth is, this puts everyone in a tough spot. The only true way to solve the problem is to fix the quest...ASAP. It's very unfair to expect the playing community to have to strattle this gray line everytime this quest is run. Discussing the issue like mature adults is definately a step in the right direction, but the ultimate responsiblity falls back to Turbine to fix the issue.

It would be extremely unfortunate to see honest players getting banned or punished because of actions taken by others, and we can't honestly expect players to throw away costly resources when they find out someone chooses to exploit. It does happen, where groups have blatently stated PRIOR to enterening the quest, that no exploits will be used, and 1 player will choose to trigger said exploit.

Exploits put everyone in a bad situation, especially when you have no control over what others may or may not do in a given circumstance. I suggest, that for the time being, development time that would be spent punishing exploiters, be put into creating a fix. This should be the main priority. I mean, "Quest X" is only instance i can think of where 1 person can make 11 others "cheaters". Most of the time, it takes the group, as a whole, to choose to use exploit tactics.

[Mockduck]

Thank you And to think, I earned 4 points for suggesting just that to the Cube...I think I like you better




Very reasonable.



I don't understand that KK. For example, if in quest X you can make monster Y bug out by twirling around in circles and you know many ppl use the twirl technique, what's wrong with upfront saying "my group doesn't approve of that kinda thing". I can understand you prohibitting "no twirling" in the LFM, but what's wrong with the generic "please don't join us and expect to cheat" which is all they are really doing?



Except that having spent 45 minutes or an hour in a raid you don't really want to drop in the last 30 seconds....

I'm with the crowd on this one. I'll be honest - I've stopped running the shroud since I've had recent discussions about various issues. I've thought about doing the "no exploit" listing in the LFM. A particular issue in the raid was used widespread enough that finding a group that wasn't doing it became difficult enough for me that it was no longer worth the effort to run the raid. I - like - the "we're keeping it clean" kind of messages on exploitable quests whose issues have become commonplace. I guess in the future I'll have to invite people, tell them over voice about my prerequisites, and then deal with the arguments, etc that arise. Doesn't sound like a lot of fun to me. But I do understand in general terms why Turbine doesn't want to have "no cheating" posts constantly connected to certain quests. I guess I'm not sure what the solution is.