Gather round! Lets talk about exploits!

[Rameses]

Nice. If you get caught 'splioting, you immediately get ransacked on *everything*.

I like this idea. It really doesn't flag the offending individual and he/she feels the reprecutions of his/her choice.

[Oreg]

Turbine's history does not point them in the direction of cleaning house. It depends on the nature of the exploit, and how Turbine views it affecting the overall game.

Let's step back to 2003 to the land of Dereth, a Turbine product called Asheron's Call, and the April patch. Since we can talk about exploits to a degree in this thread, I'll explain something. Turbine made an error in programming (this has been known to happen FAR MORE FREQUENTLY in Asheron's Call, so they're doing a great job IMO with DDO and LOTRO). The error in this patch was small, numerical, and did NOT create lag. It created a price difference of less than 100 pyreal (equivalent to the DDO Copper or Silver Piece). The problem in this erroneous price was that a specific ranged bolt/arrow was cheaper to make than it was to buy at the NPC. Infact, selling to the NPC reaped a rather hefty price tag and made the player money for pennies on the dollar.

What happened? Turbine publicly announced they'd fubar'd and said no one would be jacked with if they chose to make money doing this. The results were astounding -- a plugin for Decal took all the fletcher-skilled characters (mules or mains) and programmed them to automatically purchase the required components at one store, create the desired item, sell the items, and then leave the store to purchase notes (conversion of stacks of 10k pyreal into 100k M-notes). A good 80% of the population was actively running bots for 3 weeks across all servers, making pyreal.

This of course ruined the economy. No one was banned in the making of this blunder, but no one could afford a Tusker Doll.

On the other hand, a lot of people had M-notes and platinum scarabs (even easier way to have money, as can be stacked 100 per slot in a backpack in AC).

So, Turbine is not ruthless to players that do cheat. They do however realize what cheating will cause in the end. Do you want an over-flated economy where 4.5million plat buys you a Dragon Shard? Many people left AC after it became an elitist game -- where the common guy couldn't do anything due to the inflated economy, the lack of low-level groups and the absolute disdain of anyone that was a n00b. Cheating accelerates this growth and causes long-term subscribers to leave to find a new game.

I would place your estimate of 50% exploiting subscribers as low. I would gauge the exploiting subs at 60-75%. This thread has obviously marked quite a few of the sympathizers, and without pointing any fingers, I would also reckon the sympathizers are on a slippery ethical slope as well.

Ya know though, if Turbine did bring down the axe. If we really did go too far, what then? Well, the plat farmers would not have an unethical base to fund their existence in DDO. The elitist groups that say "Hey can't hack it he lax skillz man" might simmer down because of the slim pickings. And overall the need to exploit would likely be removed because no one would be competing for economic power.

Exploits generally come down to economic power. Resources utilized. Time required to complete. The ability to gain items out of reach.

Oh I almost forgot! Remember, Dereth became inflated, lost its player base to SWG and WoW, etc etc etc. Turbine is still running it and still updating the game where they lost subscribers. Hmmm...... Looks like if you manage an operation correctly, even under a small quantity of players, a company can survive.

They were successful enough to create DDO and LOTRO after all of this, weren't they? I don't think their stance on an issue will ruin them. They did ban quite a few accounts in Asheron's Call too for various exploits -- and sometimes they gave the community the "ok" to exploit as an experiment. Just follow the rules.

Dane? Did you swallow Dane?

[Aspenor]

In one of the articles this part of the shroud was originally called the Pac Man area. The corners due to the twisted nature of the maze are all roughly about the same distance from the center where the 4 named mobs will respawn. In Pac Man players would group up the ghosts in one corner and then eat the power cell and then the weakened ghosts thus giving them the maximum ammount of time before the ghosts respawned, unless you simply ignored the ghosts who could no longer hurt you and went about your normal task of eating yummy yellow/white dots.

Likely, due to the fact that the 4 named guys buff each other, this situation wont work for DDO so you would have to split your group of 12 into 4 groups of 3 to take each of the named mobs to a corner and slowly work them down so that they all died at the same time. Not easy. Integrated with this system is the fact that mobs that come back to life are weaker then they originally were and are now easier to kill. Seems like the intended way to do things but it places some pretty devistating restrictions (group make up wise) on groups that could actually complete it.

Part 2 is SOOOOOO easy....

[Higgy]

This whole "marking" of exploiters should be dropped entirely. Ban them, don't mark them.

Or if you do mark them, how about color-coding it so that we know HOW they exploited?

Pink triangles on their sleeves - stealth "humped" someone who was afk
Yellow stars on their sleeves - put something on the AH for 50,000 times its value.
Black diamonds on their sleeves - stood in the back during a reaver raid.

Wait, it's been done before. Never mind.

I don't care if I get infraction points for this post - Turbine can simply post a list of specifics that they consider exploits and I'll follow them. Until then, let me play the game. You mark me in any way for playing the game as it's coded, I'll cancel my account so fast, the pennies will still be spinning a year after they're spent on another MMO.

[Kistilan]

So your equating exploits and ...erm......someone stealing YOUR car???....your argument is skewed so badly that it makes not sense.
Let me elaborate....

Player A exploits a quest...he gets his loot...done
Player B runs same quest sans exploit...he gets his loot...done
These players lives are parallel no interaction at all

Human A has a car...
Human B steals car...
Life sucks for Human A...

Big difference

Economic Power. Time Spent. Resources Spent. You're missing the picture.

Player A exploited and spent presumably less time and less money. He has gained more. A LOT MORE.
Player B followed the rules and spent more time and more money to achieve the same goal. Has he been wronged?

Yes, economically Player A has somehow kept more money than he should have by cheating the system. This can be done in the real world by stealing a car from ANY human. Human B was wronged because he was economically damaged by Human A's actions.

Human A is now a DDO player that exploits.
Human B is now a DDO player that didn't exploit.

Did Human A hinder Human B? Economically, yes he did. Human A has more economic power than Human B, that did the exact same thing and should have received very similar payment. Human A has however managed to lessen his expenses (by exploiting) and has upset the economic balance of time and money (fake DDO money, but still money).

[apious1]

Just follow the rules.

No?

[Riorik]

$10 says this thread is going to get closed very, very soon.

In before the lock!

I welcome the official discussion of what is and is not exploiting. I do feel that the existing policy was a bit flawed...was a lot like sweeping dust under the rug hoping to ignore the problem. I understand some of the intent was to reduce disemination & distribution of the concepts - sadly, there's little or no way to control that communication through external options or any way for Turbine to control third party communication choices.

I can't help but feel that even this newest effort is flawed, incomplete and largely inneffective without damaging the game community itself. I'd argue it's the game design itself that leads to the issue.

Nax

[apious1]

Economic Power. Time Spent. Resources Spent. You're missing the picture.

Player A exploited and spent presumably less time and less money. He has gained more. A LOT MORE.
Player B followed the rules and spent more time and more money to achieve the same goal. Has he been wronged?

Yes, economically Player A has somehow kept more money than he should have by cheating the system. This can be done in the real world by stealing a car from ANY human. Human B was wronged because he was economically damaged by Human A's actions.

Human A is now a DDO player that exploits.
Human B is now a DDO player that didn't exploit.

Did Human A hinder Human B? Economically, yes he did. Human A has more economic power than Human B, that did the exact same thing and should have received very similar payment. Human A has however managed to lessen his expenses (by exploiting) and has upset the economic balance of time and money (fake DDO money, but still money).

Honestly, this was a great point but there is a small problem with it. You admited previously that the majority of the player base exploit. So aren't the majority actually coexisting in the same economic enviroment? And if so, of course the minority is getting screwed...that's why they are the minority.

[Kistilan]

No?

I believe you self-identified. tips his hat to you

We all make our own decisions.

[Kistilan]

Honestly, this was a great point but there is a small problem with it. You admited previously that the majority of the player base exploit. So aren't the majority actually coexisting in the same economic enviroment? And if so, of course the minority is getting screwed...that's why they are the minority.

Yeah well you have to start levelling the playing field somehow. It won't be a smooth ride at first at all.

[Borror0]

Honestly, this was a great point but there is a small problem with it. You admited previously that the majority of the player base exploit. So aren't the majority actually coexisting in the same economic enviroment? And if so, of course the minority is getting screwed...that's why they are the minority.

Just because "most people do it", doesn't mean it's right.

I guess you haven't learn it during teenage.

[IgorUnchained]

Nice! You dont need a sheepdog when the sheep tell on each other!

I spent the first 4 months of this game just trying to catch up to the party and "standing there" and "blocking that"....it is a fine way to learn a quest without setting traps off with your face. I guess now, I would have had to worry about those guys doing things FAR beyond my knowledge at the time (and even to this day) and getting banned for being in a "bad" group.

I have fellow players lining up to rat me out and Turbine offering to suspend/ban me? I like it....it isnt as productive as fixing a problem, but it sure does make for a happier and more user friendly game!

If you read "you should use Adamantium against the end giant" on the forum...that is ok. Not knowing it and getting wiped over and over is ok. But standing in a line (as you might in real battle), protecting the squishies and blocking/managing aggro.....that is an exploit? Sounds like tactics to me.....as good as can be allowed for considering AI at this point in the 21st century. Im sorry....did you want me to go toe to toe with a Giant at level 3? Even as a noob, I saw that as poor strategy. When I jump in the water and he doesnt follow...that is cool and in the spirit of real battle? Seems like an exploit to me.....smart Giant!

The best part is that most people complaining about exploits twink characters, transfer gold regularly, eat tomes by the half dozen, and know these quests like the backs of their hands. The fact that YOU can take down the Beholder in Perdition with 3 friends doesnt mean that I will know how (especially without hints/gear from guildies and a trip to the forums...which ISNT an exploit?) to do it with a full party and 3 tries.

If I am unlucky and hit a 10 second lag spike...Im dead (no refunds)....if the monster lags out for 10 seconds, I am supposed to sheathe my sword, finish out, file a bug report, say my prayers and eat my vitamins. I am fortunate that I get 8-16 hours a week to play this game...lately due to lag, that time has been more on the forums....Im not dropping after a 2 hour run because a PUGer knows a stupid trick. Ban me....I was looking for a MMO when I found this one, and Im sure the other companies wont have a problem accepting my money.

[apious1]

Just because "most people do it", doesn't mean it's right.

I guess you haven't learn it during teenage.

I am not sure I will ever get past puberty and I'm almost 30.

[Elsbet]

do you think even 3% of the players in this game have read it?..

I don't disagree with most of what you've said; however, this is only a problem for those who haven't read it. It isn't the 3% of players' problem if 97% don't read it. It's the 97% of players who didn't read it who have the problem--and it is their problem. If people don't read the contracts they sign (the EULA is a digitally signed contract) and they get hosed because the violated the terms of the contract, don't expect me to rally to their defense.

Too bad. So sad. Sucks to be them. Should have taken five minutes to read what they are signing.

If someone can't be bothered to read the EULA, then I'm not going to beat them about the head and neck until they do, but if they get banned for violating it, buh-bye.

I do think that putting the burden of reporting exploiters on the game population is unfair, especially if we can't openly state in LFMs that we won't use exploits. It puts players into a confrontational situation where regardless of the outcome (someone drops, gets booted, whatever), someone is embarrassed or labeled a "cheater." It isn't the players' responsibility to call people out or police the game.

I also think it is unreasonable to expect 11 people to go through a raid, then drop group at the end because some nitwit used an exploit. They all spent an hour+ (depending on the raid) of their time and shouldn't be punished for someone else's stupidity.

I'd much prefer it if the exploits were fixed, but if fixing them results in the unplayable lag, I'd rather them stay, know what isn't allowed and have Turbine enforce it. Then, whomever still exploits does so at their own risk.

[Quanefel]

Dude you so LOVE to quote the EULA...
Your like a Rent-A-Cop

do you think even 3% of the players in this game have read it?..
How does YOU reporting everybody for everything make for a better environment?
All Im saying is why do you feel the need to report something that is not done with any malice twards you or any other player?

I never said I don't have personal ethics...
but they are MY PERSONAL ETHICS..I don't go round inflicting them on other people.

and I didn't say Ethics are nonsense...
I compared the murder and theft we ALL do in game to Exploiting.
I'm sorry if that was a little to deep for you.
Comprehension goes a long way

Rent-A-Cop, comprehension? You know better than to do such things. Lets try to keep it civil and reasonable, please.
What does it matter if 3% or even .00000001% of players have not read the EULA? It does not mean its not there or can be ignored since those players did not read them. Like in real life, Ignorance of the Law is NEVER an excuse to break them. That is why all of us are given chance after chance to follow the rules. The Dev's have been fairly reasonable with trying to get those rules out there. It also comes to us to help players know the rules as we play with them BEFORE someone turns them if for something stupid. Like trade LFM's. We as a gaming community should work together and help each other keep from getting banned for silly little things. And besides, some of the rules are common sense. We do not need to have everything posted in big bold lettering telling us NOT to do something. I like to think we are all smart enough to know right from wrong, even the basic beliefs of it.

I didn't suggest "I" report everyone for everything. You saying that about me is false, flat out false. I have wrote that if woman or children are harassed or verbally assaulted in game as maybe the only example of me turning in a real player. I think even you can agree that behavior has no place in game or real life. It does not make me a horrible person or be labeled a "narc" as though I am scum for wanting innocent people looked out for. People are bullies here and real life. Difference is, in game I personally can not do anything about this going on but report it to a GM. In real life, its whole other story. People feel they can be as horrible as they care to be in this game and real life AND think no one should do anything about it. We both know those type of people exist, thats why we have jails for those people. They do NOT belong with society at this point. Same with the game, some people really are horrible in game. There is no question about that. Please do not suggest I or anyone else should look the other way. So please, do not confuse me disliking cheaters with simple horrible people out there. Cheaters will get what is coming to them and do not need me or anyone else "telling" on them. They chose their own path. The other people, the horrible cruel people deserve no such quarter from me. Nor do they deserve any pity from me.

Comparing what actions we take against mobs vs the way we act in real life is not the issue I am talking about. I am talking about the way we treat/act towards the other players because the fact is....they are all human beings. People can make all the excuses they want about morals or ethics but it still remains another human being that they are interacting with. It comes down to people wanting to use any excuse in the world to act however they want towards others. There will come a time and place in life we all have to answer for our treatment of others. Be it now or 30 years from now but we are not free to treat others however we want without any punishment. We have to live with the choices we make, I for one will not have to tell you what choices to make. I will suggest and nothing further but I hope people will start using their heads and maybe...just maybe make the right choices in life. Cheating is a choice. Either make the right choice or pay for it. Its all up to us as individuals to do. If people want to go through life believing they can cheat at this or that, so be it. I can only really feel sorry for those people, they will never know what being fair is or what a joy it is to win at anything being fair or following the rules really can be. Again, its their choice but they will have to pay for it one day. Blaming others for them being caught is not right either. They made the choice so they must live with that choice.

[Gol]

"Any purposeful activity which takes advantage of a game bug or defect which returns benefit or quest progress without cost or risk to the player or team."

(emphasis added)

This needs some serious clarification. 95% of things we consider "tactics" would be exploits by this definition.

[WeaselKing]

(emphasis added)

This needs some serious clarification. 95% of things we consider "tactics" would be exploits by this definition.

/Signed

[Altarboy]

Economic Power. Time Spent. Resources Spent. You're missing the picture.

Player A exploited and spent presumably less time and less money. He has gained more. A LOT MORE.
Player B followed the rules and spent more time and more money to achieve the same goal. Has he been wronged?

Yes, economically Player A has somehow kept more money than he should have by cheating the system. This can be done in the real world by stealing a car from ANY human. Human B was wronged because he was economically damaged by Human A's actions.

Human A is now a DDO player that exploits.
Human B is now a DDO player that didn't exploit.

Did Human A hinder Human B? Economically, yes he did. Human A has more economic power than Human B, that did the exact same thing and should have received very similar payment. Human A has however managed to lessen his expenses (by exploiting) and has upset the economic balance of time and money (fake DDO money, but still money).

This equation does not take power gamers into consideration which effectively has the EXACT same effect on the economy...
Forget it you win....
can't have this argument yet again....
I'll report everything...

[Kistilan]

Is it just my warped sense of humor, or does anyone else out there hear Chef from South Park saying,

"Gather round children, let's talk about sploits!" every time they hit the refresh button?

[Ringos]

(emphasis added)

This needs some serious clarification. 95% of things we consider "tactics" would be exploits by this definition.

/signed


Player 1: 'Let's throw a shield wall at the door, our Wiz is going to...'

Player 2: 'No way man, I'M not gettin' banned!'