Gather round! Lets talk about exploits!

[Kistilan]

So running my capped caster in WW to get collectibles is an Exploit since they can't hurt/hit me, so now will any quests a certain level lower than you be banned since you're "too good"?

They should hit on you natural 20s.
And your armor could wear after enough hits.

This would involve potential risk if you sat there long enough to get hit. The risk is minimal, but available.

Invulnerability is different than very very low risk.

[Dungnmaster001]

Exactly, just like in PnP the Players may not defeat an encounter "as designed" but only a bad DM punishes players for the insight and creativity to bypass said encounter, even if the bypass is the direct result of dm oversight....

That's not a very fair comparison. In PnP the human DM is there to make sure you follow the rules. In DDO there is no one making sure of that.

An example, in PnP: You get up on a ledge behind cover and start firing at a monster that has no ranged weapons. No risk to you great! Congratulations. The DM then says the monster (we'll say an orc) dives behind a large statue with nothing sticking out, granting full cover. There now the sniping player has no shot and has to either out wait the orc, come down from his perch, or find another spot with a better shot.

Same example in DDO: Monster either stands there and dies or pulls out a weapon and begins firing into whatever cover you're hiding behind with no chance of hitting you. This isn't the way it would work in PnP (in pnp there's always the chance that the monster would get a lucky shot and hit you because if you're sticking out enough to shoot at him it's not full cover and you can still get hit. in ddo the terrain can block the mob from even getting a chance to hit you in return)

This would be an exploit since the mob has NO chance of defending itself and the game's AI isn't smart enough to make it avoid it.

They will not (and should not) post a list of what is an exploit and what isn't. Doing so will just tell other players how to exploit. Some say that everyone already knows the exploits? Well that's not true since I still have no clue what people are talking about half the time (never heard of Hero Method for example though it's possible I've seen it and not known tha's what it was called), and if it were true then why would we need a list? The few exploits I do know about are all fairly obvious that they were exploits. When you can complete an encounter with absolutely no risk to yourself (or your party) then it's an exploit, plain and simple.

If you encounter something that you're not sure about, come here and PM KK (that's why this thread is here!) but for the most part exploits are easily identified.

[Vyctor]

Follow the rules as Turbine has layed out or don't follow them at all. If a person makes the first choice, to not follow said rules he has no one to blame but himself for disregarding said rules. When that person is banned for demonstrating they do not have to follow any rule Turbine may have, the rest of us will still be here playing.

And actually it is in a way about how we treat others. People who are cheating want the rest of us to look the other way or never say a word about those who are cheating. People who cheat or purposely exploit drag other players along since its how "they" feel something should be done. We get caught in the middle and made to feel like WE are the bad people for not agreeing with cheating. If people are so passionate about exploiting or cheating, why pull the rest of us into it? Why try to cover their own guiltly feelings by blaming us for their own behaviour? I did not make anyone cheat, why should I be punished or mocked for standing up for my beliefs? Why should anyone be "marked" as not desireable for having a set of ethics AND sticking to those set of ethics vs those who lack ethics? How is this fair to us? If people want to cheat/exploit, leave ...us...out...of...it. Please.

In order to break rules, rules have to be set. A crime can not be committed against a gray area. If we are not told what is an exploit but given a general if there's no risk it's an exploit...but if Turbine creates an area with a ledge I can get to because I have an extraordinary jump...and fails to program the mob with a way to reach me up there...it is of no risk to me to jump up there and range the mob until he's dead...that's not my fault...that is DM oversight...and punishing a player for DM oversight is bad DMing...period...

If Turbine wants to ban for exploits, they will lose a lot of face if they ban without spelling out clearly what can not be done.....DDO is not the only MMO on the block....

[Elsbet]

Until I get something more specific that that we may not violate unknown rules, I'm not really certain the EULA applies, because it is not clear whether or not anyone is violating their contract. This game was marketed (to some extent) under the notion that it wasn't going to be a typical MMO grind, and that players could use a variety of tactics to solve missions. With respect to part 2 of the shroud, no one knows if the tactics 90 per cent of pugs run is an exploit or a strategy. Same for all other cheesy tactics, including shield and fire walls, 2 intimitank pong games, and blade barrier trains.

The new policy seems to favor the reporting of groups. This is going to create a huge problem, as no one really knows what these exploits are. And no one really knows what the exploits are because we cannot discuss these issues on the forums. By encouraging people to make reports when they believe a group is exploiting, they are driving wedges between groups.

Consider also the difficulties faced by the persons charged with responding to these complaints. Player A dropped group and reported the group for exploiting. Player A reasonably believed the tactics used by the group were exploits. Player B (the star) reasonably believed the tactics used by the group were not exploits. Also, none of the other party members were around, as the mission finished before the GM responded. Also, Turbine has not previously indicated the tactic is an exploit. What will the GM do, ban player B for exploiting, ban player A for filing a false report, or nothing. My money is on the third option. Additionally, even if the other party members were able to be located, they would certainly not admit the group was exploiting, as to do so would admit they were violating the rules. They could be punished even if group leader could not be.

Ummm... Yeah. That is what I said after the paragraph about the EULA. Players shouldn't be put in a position to act as game police and we need a very clear definition of what is an isn't an exploit and let Turbine enforce it. You're arguing with someone who agrees with you.

The confusion comes in with things like "blade barrier chains" and such. Is just using multiple blade barriers in a row an exploit or using the mana and spells given to us by Turbine?

If we're bored and my daughter and I decide to take our capped clerics into Water Works and kill kobolds, is that exploiting or is it us just having fun racing to kill kobolds before they even have the chance to yark? (Sorry KK, but it is a lot of fun. ) There's no risk to us. We can still loot the chests, even though the loot is essentially useless for a capped character. That almost fits the "definition" of exploiting to the letter, but I seriously doubt it harms the game in any way--until KK makes it against the rules to kill kobolds .

Without cost means that you or your team do not have to expend money, resources, equipment or supplies to achieve the goal. Without risk means that any chance of taking damage, being affected by spells/powers and/or dying or becoming incapacitated is non-existent or removed.

Going back and running a lowbie quest you might have missed on elite for the favor could also qualify. No risk, get the reward of the favor. I can invite certain players along in a quest and know that they are good enough that I'll probably not take damage and probably won't have to heal much because they know the quest that well. Is that an exploit too? Little or no risk, get the rewards for completing the quest.

It'd be a lot better if Turbine would just be a lot less vague, i.e. Deliberately causing monster AI to stop working is not permitted. It doesn't identify any quest or even what causes the AI to stop working as intended, but clearly identifies behavior that isn't allowed. I didn't even have to pull any teeth.

[Aspenor]

Quarion, KK, you have a PM. I think you chose the wrong way to word your clarifications/answers. Just a thought/suggestion. Clarification would be nice.

[Rilen]

Ah, a fairly clear answer that the Hero method is out, thanks KK.

I certainly dont read it that way. Nothing "clear" has been stated by Turbine on the hero method. Think I'll PM
the Kobold and ask directly .. meanwhile ..

Without cost means that you or your team do not have to expend money, resources, equipment or supplies to achieve the goal. Without risk means that any chance of taking damage, being affected by spells/powers and/or dying or becoming incapacitated is non-existent or removed.

In lets say, Velah, the non-heroes are expending resources keeping the heroes alive .. be that SP/wands/scrolls/marks
on healing .. resist/protect, haste, wand whipping, etc. The heroes are defintately at risk .. the rest of the party is
supporting a tactic and is at risk if the tactic is not properly executed. (Consider if a hero takes a rez in a less than
optimal location) The group as a whole risks not completing the encounter if the tactic isnt executed successfully. Is it
so hard to believe that Velah, when faced with attacking heroes might choose to dispatch the immediate threats first
and ignore those who choose to sit on the sidelines? Ever consider she doesnt view those folks as any threat until
they present one? Consider what happens when someone lights her up with a damage cast from the "safe" spot. She
takes notice and you are now very much at risk.

How about the Pit Fiend?
Back before PUGs were running the Shroud I played with Wicked Rebellion and researched the Pit Fiend a bit on the d20SRD. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#pitFiend) After reading the tactics round by
round section, I came away expecting the following from part 5 before we'd ever seen Harry:

1. three or more folks in his face will cause him to dole out quickened AOE dmg
2. when the fiend smells blood (injured enemies), he'll focus attention on those targets
3. hes on the lookout for spellcasters
4. holding the casters in reserve with their first actions in the fight being debuff attempts, improves survivability

Sending 1-2 primary melee in to molest him and attempt to secure aggro seemed a natural tactical decision. We actually
experimented with never healing those tanks to full .. so that his "interest" would be primarily on those folks due to the
dmg they output and the fiend's expected desire to "finish off" a less than full health target whenever possible. Sending
in all melee to zerg him looked like a bad approach as it would open an opportunity for AOE dmg.

Granted .. the d20SRD is not DDO .. and actually playing this encounter proved and disproved some assumptions/tactics
we had considered before actually seeing him.

But the point was .. after considering the foe, and given the area sprinning blade risks, the random casts Harry does .. it looked like
hero method could be a viable tactic to attempt to control the disposition and delivery of his damage, given the info available at the time.


To say that taking an approach like that was an exploit and not a bunch of folks trying to think about actual tactics to use in game ..

.. I dunno, makes no sense to me.

Regardless of why you might choose to do it .. "heroing" Harry now still means everyone in that chamber is spending
resources and putting their toon at risk in some form or another .. so in that regard, I just cant see how someone can
say the hero method is an exploit on this boss either.

Perhaps for some .. sending everyone in to zerg a boss is their idea of tactics. I however dont see anything tactical
about that.

[Anastasios]

So...to the KK and Q, why don't you lay the cards down and show us what you got, I am interested in hearing of what the repercussions are to be and for what violations-I think since most of us really could careless about sending PM's and using the in game reports (as I'm sure most everyone else will avoid the 'new' undesirable kind of players-those with loose lips), we are entitled to hear the whole process that I am sure is under wraps hidden away in the Gnashtooth Lair somewhere.

I think if we better understand what your process will be, then maybe we can better understand why not to do certain things a specific way in the quest, especially if it is considered to be an exploit. Could also be a way to get even more of a positive (or negative) reaction as to what kind of foundation you are laying down. So how 'bout it, you holding Jacks over Aces or ya bluffing?

[Vhlad]

They should hit on you natural 20s.
And your armor could wear after enough hits.

This would involve potential risk if you sat there long enough to get hit. The risk is minimal, but available.

Invulnerability is different than very very low risk.

What if you're naked but have natural DR 5 and 40AC?

[Oreg]

Ah, a fairly clear answer that the Hero method is out, thanks KK.

By the way, what is the target timeline we should hope to see a replay to a PM in?

And this is why we have a problem. I disagree 100%. Under the definition provided today I would say the Hero method is deemed to NOT be an exploit as it still expends resources and the risk of the hero dying still exists.

[Quanefel]

Yes, running the quest isnt the exploit, using displacement, resist energy, and stoneskin is the exploit. If you want to run WW you must do it in a fashion acceptable to turbines arbitrary definition, I.E completely naked and only using lvl 1 spells.

Actually that is not entirely true. Here is why. They have already stated "If you are at risk, have to spend resources. etc" is the right way. Going into any quest, even a low level one when you are capped is not exploiting since we are spending resources(using spell comp.), getting our armor dinged, or maybe drinking healing pots once in awhile. All are within the rules and common sense. The at risk part comes into play by...a bad save. All it takes is for a simple roll of a 1, to make you feel like you were 1st level all over again. Trust me, it aint pretty but it will happen.

[jerryxenon]

So should I start sending in the names of people and entire guilds that have been exploiting the game since day one via the Old von chest and Dragon exploits or the recent Litany exploits, MOST OF WHO are posting here on this very subject as if thay have been born again? as I have stated in previous posts on this subject the hypocrisy on this matter is laughable and now its downright offensive.

[TommyBoy]

Without cost means that you or your team do not have to expend money, resources, equipment or supplies to achieve the goal. Without risk means that any chance of taking damage, being affected by spells/powers and/or dying or becoming incapacitated is non-existent or removed.

so let me understand this:

shield blocking STK is an exploit running the bases before the monsters were stuck to them wasn't? So this begs the question of why the monsters were stuck to the bases and stk hasn't figured out how (been programmed) to just step over the shield wall?

[Turial]

That's kinda what I though too.....before actually being inside the Shroud and doing it.
Those guys are so tough, that to expect three unknown chars to beat one of them down by themselves is almost impossible.
if they were not renamed, it would be a lot easier. Weak builds coud use CC or vorpals or something to overcome a lack of DPS and healing. But as it is now, I see the whole party being required to take even one of them down.

it seems to me like it would be easier to just bring all four to one spot and unleash the whole parties might on them at the same time. We often do two of them that way anyway. I think we could do all four.

A legitiment way of slowing them down, or making them actually beatable by a small group of average players would remove any need for using any exploits.

I don't want to cheat....I want to have fun....but I also want to win! Losing is no fun either.

Correct we are on the same page with respect to part 2.

[Vhlad]

Actually that is not entirely true. Here is why. They have already stated "If you are at risk, have to spend resources. etc" is the right way. Going into any quest, even a low level one when you are capped is not exploiting since we are spending resources(using spell comp.), getting our armor dinged, or maybe drinking healing pots once in awhile. All are within the rules and common sense. The at risk part comes into play by...a bad save. All it takes is for a simple roll of a 1, to make you feel like you were 1st level all over again. Trust me, it aint pretty but it will happen.

But you can have natural AC over 30, and natural DR over their highest damage.

So you walk in the quest, naked. If the cr 0.25 kobold rolls a 20 and hits, but deals 0 damage (DR absorbs it all) and you never take any item damage (because you're naked) or use any spells or resources... then you have 0 risk, 0 cost. An inactive raid boss has more risk and more cost because you are using resources to heal yourself and/or trying to avoid other things in the environment, like lava, falling off a cliff, blades, respawns... and you can always create risk or cost in any situation by using a vicious weapon, creating summons & dispelling them (or whatever), just as you can remove risk or cost by exploiting the AI in a different manner (i.e. two group range with returners, aggro split, boss paces & twirls)

A general description of what is and is not an exploit will not do if they plan to enforce anything fairly, because people will always try to poke holes. A specific list is needed. And they don't need to justify anything if a specific list is given. They can just say dont do it because we said so.

[oronisi]

I just need to weigh in here and say the #1 exploit (bugging the pit fiend) currently used in this game is NOT strictly an exploit. EVERY single mob in DDO can stop attacking on it's own, with zero provocation from the player. So to say this is ONLY an exploit, or 100% under player control is utter B. S. Please address your AI and the problem rather than trying to patch one simple symptom of the problem. Please don't hold players accountable for something that is not under their control. If you need to, close down the bugged quests until they are fixed. This includes the Abbot by the way. You guys closed that Goodblades quest when there were slimes in it that could be exploited, I don't know when or why you changed your policy on that.

[Quanefel]

I think way to many people are over-reacting a bit from this subject. Turbine is trying to get us to openly talk about this subject but seems a few want no discussion on this topic for any reason. The Cube already said they might be forced to close this thread for the reactions of some people, I sure hope it is not the case of others not liking an opposing opinion. I hope people are reasonable and at least listen to the concerns of others AND the kind Dev's for finally allowing us to talk about this openly, to a degree. Please don't let that small number of players ruin it for the rest of us Dev's, making this thread was a GOOD idea. Do what you have to with the trouble makers amonst us, maybe border their posts with rainbows and unicorns? ^_^

[oronisi]

That's kinda what I though too.....before actually being inside the Shroud and doing it.
Those guys are so tough, that to expect three unknown chars to beat one of them down by themselves is almost impossible.
if they were not renamed, it would be a lot easier. Weak builds coud use CC or vorpals or something to overcome a lack of DPS and healing. But as it is now, I see the whole party being required to take even one of them down.

it seems to me like it would be easier to just bring all four to one spot and unleash the whole parties might on them at the same time. We often do two of them that way anyway. I think we could do all four.

A legitiment way of slowing them down, or making them actually beatable by a small group of average players would remove any need for using any exploits.

I don't want to cheat....I want to have fun....but I also want to win! Losing is no fun either.

This...I disagree with. Way before anyone knew any exploits for Part 2 of the shroud I know several people that could solo several of the enemies (not orthon or devil). Heck, grab a WF wizard and you can solo the Trog, Kasquick, and the earth elemental easy. Or grab a ranger and solo the fire elemental. Either way, part 2 has never been a problem for me, I don't think anyone needs to exploit that part. I'm sure people do it off of the convenience.

[Mindspat]

I wish this procedure was adopted a long time ago.

Keep in mind that people who "exploit" believe it is how they are supposed to play a game knowing full well it was not an intended mechanic. I'm also willing to bet they are one int eh same of those who cheat at board games like Monopoly or Risk.

The Dont' Ask Dont Tell method works best. Assume no one wants to exploit until someone says "I want to do X to cause Y to bug". Often enough these people don't mention it until after the group is underway. Even then, if it were mentioned as a desire yet the event hasn't occured yet when is the proper time to file a ticket for this?

Another thing, some spells and abilities bypass some mechanics. Like when a cleric casts a healing "spell" and the target moves behind an object or when an arcane caster uses a spell, such as magic missle, that has a limited range. There are a few things that I'm aware of that do not follow the range or line-of-sight rule. Am I exploiting if I use these spells and/or abilities nowing this or is it intended?

bah - sending a tell to the smelly kobold...

[CrimsonEagle]

First off, Devs, thank you for this. Questioning things that may be exploits but are not really definitive, (Though some things such as Shroud pt 5 should be obvious to all), should be able to be talked about in open forum, not punished when someone brings it up.

I do agree with some of the posters above about lfm's making statements such as "NO BUGGING" should also be allowed as this will give me a clear choice from the get go as to which run I will choose. No questions asked.

I also would not report a group if they did decide to exploit faulty game mechanics. I would leave the group...leaving them one man down, but I would not report them because in reality, the only people they are cheating are themselves out of the true experience of this game. And that is the point. This is only a game!! Its not as if they are out in the streets killing someone....they are playing a game. I will not report anyone in game because this would be a prime example of Big Brother gone awry.

If there is an exploit, acknowledge it and allow those of us who prefer to play this game pure to pursue it with the knowledge that you are working on a fix as fast as you can.

All of the secrecy surrounding outright exploits, or even questionable tactics was just silly because these exploits spread quicker than a wildfire, soon becoming not only common knowledge, but common practice. Thus, if something IS common practice, why keep it a secret?

I had stated in another thread someplace that although I do not like it when people use exploits against monster AI, I can tolerate it with the knowledge that you will fix it and it does no harm to the players. With that being said, in this scenario, I would not agree with banning. Just acknowledge that it is not as intended for those of us who care, and fix it as soon as you can.

On the other hand, people who use exploits that CAN harm another player, (the auction house bug), these people are intentionally and willfully attempting to take advantage of the unsuspecting/unknowing. This is something that no one should tolerate and because they are attempting to harm other players, everyone should agree with some form of punishment.

There are many, many questionable tactics used in this game that exploits the weakness in the AI and for some of them there are some relatively reasonable fixes, though they would take some time to implement. These I would not consider cheats but cheese due to bad AI. These you can work on over time.

Things like part 5 in the Shroud was not an exploit in the weakness of AI but an exploit in something that was outright broken in the AI. As I'm sure you practice....these things that are outright broken should take priority. I would go so far as say these things should take priority over everything in development. Some may argue that if you do this, you will hold up content/new races/classes/quests. They would be correct, but from my own point of view, I would not care. Why push for advancement if there is something broken to this degree?

All of that being said, this move is a big step forward. Now there is one more step. Allow us to talk about questionable tactics openly in this thread. No more attempt at secrecy for things that are a secret to no one.

I will not send you a PM about questionable tactics or possible exploits. If you give us permission, I will post any questions I have here. If not, then I wont.

Once again, thank you. This is a start.

Crimson.

[Quanefel]

But you can have natural AC over 30, and natural DR over their highest damage.

So you walk in the quest, naked. If the cr 0.25 kobold rolls a 20 and hits, but deals 0 damage (DR absorbs it all) and you never take any item damage (because you're naked) or use any spells or resources... then you have 0 risk, 0 cost. An inactive raid boss has more risk and more cost because you are using resources to heal yourself and/or trying to avoid other things in the environment, like lava, falling off a cliff, blades, respawns... and you can always create risk or cost in any situation by using a vicious weapon (or whatever), just as you can remove risk or cost by exploiting the AI in a different matter (two group range, aggro split, boss paces & twirls)

A general description of what is and is not an exploit will not do if they plan to enforce anything fairly, because people will always try to poke holes. A specific list is needed.

All that is well and good but tell that to my poor 16th level mage who..almost got owned by that stupid 5th lvl kobold shaman in WW's the other day. I was trying to scout out all the collectable spots, research where collectables drop, frequency, etc...and a kobold almost handed my rear to me for simply failing a save vs hold person. Nothing more embarrassing than that when your brother and guildmate are with you, laughing at you....Sure, I finally saved but not before 10+ yapping kobolds and a one big ugly orc type creature is happily beating on me like I am their next tasty meal. Man, that sucked.