Gather round! Lets talk about exploits!

[Quanefel]

This whole "marking" of exploiters should be dropped entirely. Ban them, don't mark them.

Or if you do mark them, how about color-coding it so that we know HOW they exploited?

Pink triangles on their sleeves - stealth "humped" someone who was afk
Yellow stars on their sleeves - put something on the AH for 50,000 times its value.
Black diamonds on their sleeves - stood in the back during a reaver raid.

Wait, it's been done before. Never mind.

I don't care if I get infraction points for this post - Turbine can simply post a list of specifics that they consider exploits and I'll follow them. Until then, let me play the game. You mark me in any way for playing the game as it's coded, I'll cancel my account so fast, the pennies will still be spinning a year after they're spent on another MMO.

A nazi analogy? A bit on the extreme side there.

[Altarboy]

Is it just my warped sense of humor, or does anyone else out there hear Chef from South Park saying,

"Gather round children, let's talk about sploits!" every time they hit the refresh button?

LOLOLOLOL I thought the exact same thing!

[The_Mighty_Cube]

Okay,

The purpose of this thread is not for debate. Its for asking for more information and getting more information. Lets try to stay on topic.

It's also not for accusations, insults and bringing disputes with others into this discussion.

This thread has gotten downright horrible and I've gone through and cleaned out what doesn't belong. If I have to do it again, we'll be closing the thread until we feel that the community can handle such a discussion without viciously attacking each-other.

Jiggle.

[IgorUnchained]

I cant wait for the day I find out that the PUG Im in isnt really a PUG at all....it is Chris Hansen and Perverted Justice...and Im on Dateline.

"Well Wait Brum...you say you dont like exploits, but in last nights log you say that 'there is a stalagmite that you can hide behind where you can still cast but he cant hit you'......oh, so now you just came along to make sure everyone was safe from exploits?"

[Yaga_Nub]

Just because "most people do it", doesn't mean it's right.

I guess you haven't learn it during teenage.

Actually it is. It's called majority rule.

EDIT: That is if the players were making the rules not Turbine.

[Scholar]

I'm going with my car analogy again. The government builds a road. The state places a speed limit in the zone on the road. You are now given a mode of doing something (travelling) and you are given a rule to follow, clear as day (the speed limit). If you choose to go over it because they didn't physically stop your vehicle from accelerating beyond the speed limit, does that fly in court when you get a speeding ticket? HECK NO.

Actually, it is more like this. The officer gives you a ticket for going 35 mph in what he "claims" is a 25 mph zone. Only, it is not posted anywhere. As such, as this is a two lanes each way road, the state drivers manual tells you the default speed limit is 35 unless posted otherwise. You decide to fight the ticket in court. Your present your case. The judge asks the officer if there are signs stating it is a 25 mph zone. The officer has to admit that there are not. He is asked if it is 2 lanes each way. The officer says yes. Case dismissed.

This is a pretty good analogy for the "unamed" part 5 shroud "exploit." In other quests, or even in other parts of the Shroud like parts 1 and 2, it would never ever be considered an exploit. In fact, in some quests it might even be detrimental if it were to cause the boss to bug (like the Reaver). It is normal behavior. It is following the rules. Playing the game as written. In other words, it is following the 35 mph speed limit. Except now we want to say the limit should be 25 mph without those that enforce the law being willing to post it anywhere.

[Largo_Kyber]

The problem that I see with these non specific "general" discussions is that it can be very difficult to separate tactics from exploits and a huge grey area exists in the gap between. Are some tactics exploits? Yes, but which ones in which quest?

If we can only talk about exploits in general terms then there is never any clarification and we can't get out of the "grey area".

I will not be sending tells the Kobold to rat another player out. Policing the game is not my job, nor is it my job to quit a group I've invested my time in because they choose a tactic that is in this grey area.

With the amount of patches and hotfixes applied to this game there is constant change. In the past, I've joined Pugs who were exploiting, but I didn't actually KNOW that we were exploiting because it was not a cheese tactic but rather an exploitation of a broken game mechanic that the PUG leader used. I directly benefitted by his explotation and yet I could not have prevented it. It's not as if the exploiters are posting LFM's that say "We're exploiting" or "Cheese Run".

Either post the known exploits to make it public knowledge of what is or what isn't right or don't discuss it at all. Having a kinda, sorta discussion about some possibly maybe exploits does nothing to help the player base and in fact creates a larger grey area than we started out with.

[Kommunity_Kobold]

Time for more answers!

So now you are telling me that in order to play this game without worrying about getting kicked off, I have to pay attention to the forums?

Nope! Not at all. Players just need to follow the rules which everyone are agree too when play game! Except now, you have place to come ask question about rules if you have one. Or fifty.

[QUOTE]I think you could avoid offending with questions by having the leader make it clear in the beginning of the party: "We're playing clean, no harm no foul if you leave now." No questions required.

That's OK, but not on the LFM?[/

[QUOTE]

Let me clarify a couple of fundamental differences: First, saying "We don't exploit" when you've gathered inside the quest is in PRIVATE, and making clear your intentions. Second, it does not publicly label certain quests as exploitable, but states that you, in general play clean.

IT IS NOT THE COMMUNITY'S JOB TO REPORT PEOPLE FOR HOW THEY PLAY

I apologize for sounding like we expect you to make these reports. We do not. However, there are many who are very passionate and do care to report the activity. What we're trying to do here, is provide a PROPER VENUE for them to report this behavior, so that when they do, they don't get themselves in trouble by doing it in the wrong ways. We're not asking that you report exploiters. We're asking that if you choose to do so, to do it properly.

This needs some serious clarification. 95% of things we consider "tactics" would be exploits by this definition.

Without cost means that you or your team do not have to expend money, resources, equipment or supplies to achieve the goal. Without risk means that any chance of taking damage, being affected by spells/powers and/or dying or becoming incapacitated is non-existent or removed.

[Ringos]

Q, the Kommunity Kobald AND the Cube? This is like an All-Star thread!

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

Q, the Kommunity Kobald AND the Cube? This is like an All-Star thread!

It's almost like they're really the same person.... <tin foil hat>

Garth

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Without cost means that you or your team do not have to expend money, resources, equipment or supplies to achieve the goal. Without risk means that any chance of taking damage, being affected by spells/powers and/or dying or becoming incapacitated is non-existent or removed.

Ah, a fairly clear answer that the Hero method is out, thanks KK.

By the way, what is the target timeline we should hope to see a replay to a PM in?

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

What will the GM do, ban player B for exploiting, ban player A for filing a false report, or nothing. My money is on the third option

Yeah, option 3. The GM has to physically be present in the quest and see the players performing the said 'exploit'. They cannot ban on mere hearsay. This is why KK said:

Should you join a group that wants to use questionable methods to complete the quest, you should politely inform them that you don't break rules and drop the group. If you're feeling ambitious, we would appreciate a report to Customer Service that they are exploiting. (The sooner this report comes in, the better.)

It's so a GM can jump into the quest and watch. Then it's up to them to decide whether the group is exploiting or not.

Garth

[Gol]

Without cost means that you or your team do not have to expend money, resources, equipment or supplies to achieve the goal. Without risk means that any chance of taking damage, being affected by spells/powers and/or dying or becoming incapacitated is non-existent or removed.

So as long as there is an expense and risk on our end it's not an exploit? (hey, this is obviously not what you meant originally, but that's what the clarification says)

Most (if not all) of the known major exploits have definate expenses and risks associated with trying to acheive the expected (exploitative) result. My point is that by your clarification even these exploits are no longer exploits by your definition in that the act of doing them meets your requirements for being non-exploitative.

[Vyctor]

I will admit that I didn't read past page 1 so i apologize if this was asked and answered.

Will you be formally stating what actions are considered exploits in a forum or post that is easy to find? Banning people for exploiting should only occur if you have clearly stated it is an exploit and I do not see how you can do that without detailing the exploit mechanics. Although I applaud this effort I see some serious issues developing. And quite honestly the old standby "you know when you are doing something wrong" isn't cut and dry.

I think if players find ways around quest objectives using ingenuity and Ai/mechanics/etc that may be "not as designed", it is not an exploit until Turbine has officially declared it as such.

Exactly, just like in PnP the Players may not defeat an encounter "as designed" but only a bad DM punishes players for the insight and creativity to bypass said encounter, even if the bypass is the direct result of dm oversight....

[Talon_Moonshadow]

So true man! I don't know how many times I have completed part 2 and I STILL have no idea what you are and are not supposed to do. I basically just wait for someone to tell me where to go and what to kill. I know the part 5 issue and do not use it but part 2? How is it SUPPOSED to work? If it's broke, fix it and you don't have to worry about people playing your game wrong. You won't have to threaten to 'take your ball and go home'. Or hey, give me a SPECIFIC list of what I CAN'T do and I won't do it. I'm not gonna pay a cash to play a game and worry about killing something the 'right' way. Geesh...

It's sad, because I had started to write a post about how I've finished the Shroud on Normal and hard and did not use any exploits. I was going to tell players there is absolutely no reason to use one.
Then I started thinking.....about Prt 2. And even Blocking/Agro methos that is used in so many quests.

There are so many quests were it seems the only way to not die is to use the AI to your advantage.

I don't think you ever need to use an actually bug in the AI, but many quests are almost impossible without using the "I'll get agro, you guys take steps to keep me alive" method.

Then there is Shroud prt 2 that I have no idea how it is supposed to be done or not done.
I suspect what people call "bugging out" there might be intended, but since it doesn't seem to work for all of them, maybe it is not intended. Terrain thing looks like bad pathing AI to me....might be considered an exploit.

Devs! Please do not take away options on how to finish a quest. We should not have to beat dwon every mob within reach of his weps....that is stupid and not D&D. Options, creativity.....that is D&D.

ranging a Pit Fiend is smart....not exploiting.
Preventing a big bad guy from smashing the parties Wizard is not explointing, it is playing smart.

But haveing a game where the monster is stupid all the time is not right either.

Please fix the monster AI, so that they behave more believable.
Also if possible account for intelligence.

I should be able to have two buddies on oppisite sides of a room shoot slimes and have the slime change directions all day long.
I should be able to cast wall of fire and burn a wolf and have him run away....and I should be able to herd him like cattle exactly where i want him to go........

But I should never be able to fool a Pit Fiend. he should be smart enough to target clerics, or whoever is hurting him most or who is preventing him from getting to someone....etc.

Please, please, please design us a game where we can out smart some creatures and be outsmarted by others.
Please give us options to meleeing at close range all bad guys to death.

it is never ,m intention to cheat....but what fun is it to be locked up in a stell cage and limited to boxing rules only, with someone 5 times my size?! That is not fun.

We want options! And we want an AI that makes sense.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

In one of the articles this part of the shroud was originally called the Pac Man area. The corners due to the twisted nature of the maze are all roughly about the same distance from the center where the 4 named mobs will respawn. In Pac Man players would group up the ghosts in one corner and then eat the power cell and then the weakened ghosts thus giving them the maximum ammount of time before the ghosts respawned, unless you simply ignored the ghosts who could no longer hurt you and went about your normal task of eating yummy yellow/white dots.

Likely, due to the fact that the 4 named guys buff each other, this situation wont work for DDO so you would have to split your group of 12 into 4 groups of 3 to take each of the named mobs to a corner and slowly work them down so that they all died at the same time. Not easy. Integrated with this system is the fact that mobs that come back to life are weaker then they originally were and are now easier to kill. Seems like the intended way to do things but it places some pretty devistating restrictions (group make up wise) on groups that could actually complete it.

That's kinda what I though too.....before actually being inside the Shroud and doing it.
Those guys are so tough, that to expect three unknown chars to beat one of them down by themselves is almost impossible.
if they were not renamed, it would be a lot easier. Weak builds coud use CC or vorpals or something to overcome a lack of DPS and healing. But as it is now, I see the whole party being required to take even one of them down.

it seems to me like it would be easier to just bring all four to one spot and unleash the whole parties might on them at the same time. We often do two of them that way anyway. I think we could do all four.

A legitiment way of slowing them down, or making them actually beatable by a small group of average players would remove any need for using any exploits.

I don't want to cheat....I want to have fun....but I also want to win! Losing is no fun either.

[Grond]

Do you honestly believe that

A. This is the best way to deal with the problem.
B. That with the player base as angry as it is right now with the lag issues etc... and the advent of AoC that it wouldn't die?

It's delusional to think banning %50 of the players wont kill the game especially THIS game. It is so group oriented that I am sure you will lose friends to this...yes even the pro-ban people will lose friends too. It just makes no sense.

Actually, I think it's delusional to think that 50% of the player base will get banned. Having played MMOs since 1997, and been in plenty of games where people got banned for exploiting, I can tell you that as soon as some people get banned for something, the rest of the population that doesn't want to get banned stops doing it.

[Crarites]

Here is a situation I will likely face sometime in the next 2 weeks.

I join a Pug.
Nothing is mentioned one way or the other about exploits.
On the final stage the boss bugs either intentionally or unintentionally.
It seems like you expect me to recall? That will have effectively wasted an hour
of my limited playtime.

If I choose to stay what will happen? Will my account be banned? Will i be punished? Will I be given a warning? To whom can I appeal if some action is taken? If none of my actions caused the bug why am I being held accountable? If I'm unaware that an exploit has been used does that affect my punishment?

I'm sure someone will advise me to contact the leader and ask if exploits will be used... but what garuntee's what I view as an exploit and what the leader views as an exploit are the same? Why am I expected to sacrifice my playtime due to others actions?

[Kistilan]

Actually, I think it's delusional to think that 50% of the player base will get banned. Having played MMOs since 1997, and been in plenty of games where people got banned for exploiting, I can tell you that as soon as some people get banned for something, the rest of the population that doesn't want to get banned stops doing it.

Yeah, AC went through a phase (ironically, about 2.5 years into its existence) where some extensive exploits were being used. These exploits lead to bans, and it probably wasn't 50%, but it sure was THOUSANDS of accounts. The game lived on. People played. Some risked exploiting still. Some didn't get caught -- a lot did though because the player base had changed their main philosophy.

Instead of, "Why can't I do it if I can do it?" it changed to "Why can HE do it if I can't do it?" All's fair in love n war but someone gets hurt if they want to play that game. You take a risk on your own account. (pun intended)

A few thousand accounts banned and people will change their thoughts when they say, "Gee, where is XXXXXPerson?" "Oh yeah dude, didnt' you hear? He got banned.... was xploiting in quest X and got caught. He said he might come back on a new account (and new credit card, potentially), but he's still thinking about it. I mean, he lost ALL his stuff man -- that was 2 years of loot and stuff!"

Anyway, yeah, the population's opinion on certain xploits will change given the proper application of force.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

[QUOTE=Kommunity Kobold;1693139]Time for more answers!



Nope! Not at all. Players just need to follow the rules which everyone are agree too when play game! Except now, you have place to come ask question about rules if you have one. Or fifty.

[QUOTE]I think you could avoid offending with questions by having the leader make it clear in the beginning of the party: "We're playing clean, no harm no foul if you leave now." No questions required.

Let me clarify a couple of fundamental differences: First, saying "We don't exploit" when you've gathered inside the quest is in PRIVATE, and making clear your intentions. Second, it does not publicly label certain quests as exploitable, but states that you, in general play clean.



I apologize for sounding like we expect you to make these reports. We do not. However, there are many who are very passionate and do care to report the activity. What we're trying to do here, is provide a PROPER VENUE for them to report this behavior, so that when they do, they don't get themselves in trouble by doing it in the wrong ways. We're not asking that you report exploiters. We're asking that if you choose to do so, to do it properly.



Without cost means that you or your team do not have to expend money, resources, equipment or supplies to achieve the goal. Without risk means that any chance of taking damage, being affected by spells/powers and/or dying or becoming incapacitated is non-existent or removed.

I think you've answered most of my questions here. Most of the tactics we use would seem to be ok, as there is still risk and resources being used. Hopefull you guys can fix some obvious AI problems that create some grey areas.

thx.